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  1. #26
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hershon
    Interesting Repsonse From Your Question At Sound StageAV
    May 16, 2005

    Question:

    I have the Harman Kardon DVD 31 DVD/CD player that you reviewed, and I love it. I bought this unit mainly for its CD sound. I play the HK, which I got for $250 online, by connecting it with a fiber-optic cable to my Denon 3801 receiver, which is connected to my six Orb Audio speakers and subwoofer, which are the best speakers and subwoofer I've heard.

    The reason I'm writing you is that I read your excellent and very well-written review of the Harman Kardon DVD 31. I have one question that hopefully will resolve a major argument I am having with people on an online forum. Q: Did you listen to CDs via a fiber-optic connection or the analog outputs?

    The reason I'm asking is that my sound is so much better with the fiber-optic cable than an analog outs, but people on the board keep maintaining that the sound of a $35 DVD player will sound the same as a $10,000 DVD player, ad infinitum, when connected by fiber-optic cable because it's just reading ones and zeroes. I maintain this is nonsense, and I am using the sound of my HK DVD 31 as proof.

    SoundStage AV Response: By using a fiber-optic digital cable and connecting the DVD 31 directly to your Denon receiver, you are actually bypassing the DVD 31's analog stage and using the player as a transport. When using any player as a transport, you are relying on the digital-to-analog conversion to be done somewhere else. In your case, it's happening in the Denon receiver, with the digital stream being passed along by the fiber-optic cable. As for this sounding better than the DVD 31's own analog stage, that's quite possible. Denon is well-known for making some accomplished digital gear.

    As for your next question, about whether a $35 DVD player will sound as good as a $10,000 one in the configuration that you're talking about, this topic has actually been batted around audiophile circles for years. On the one hand are the people who say that bits are bits and any transport will perform as well as another as long as it's operating properly. Others, however, find profound differences.

    As for the bit-and-bits crowd, the argument falls apart when you compare transports and find that not all sound the same. There's more to it than just saying all the ones and zeroes transfer the same. That logic may work for computer hard drives, which aren't as time sensitive as CD playback, but there's more to it when you're trying to reproduce topnotch sound. I've done the experiment many times; hence, I don't use a $35 DVD player as a transport. On the other hand, you don't have to spend exorbitant amounts of money to get fine performance from a transport.

    What you have going appears to satisfy you, and that's what's important. What's also important is that you don't just believe what others say. Some people get blinded by the world of digital and think everything sounds the same when, in fact, the discrepancies between pieces of digital gear are just as great as those between analog products.

    ...Doug Schneider
    that didnt really answer my question but still an interesting read

  2. #27
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    i thought the digital connection will always sound the same since the reciever does the decoding?
    Thats right. The digital connection is relaying on your receiver to sound good or bad,not the player,its just playing and the receiver is changing everything.
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  3. #28
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    The general rule is that players using a digital connection make no difference. Maybe if you spend 2 to 5000 on a transport there might be an ever so slight difference. In Hershons situation he compared a DVD receiver which has amps and and all the other suff contained in a normal receiver in one unit. Not a very fair apple to apple comparison. But the HK sounded better to Hershons's ears. But keep in mind his Denon receiver is doing all the decoding.

    Hershon also compared a Cambridge Audio CD player to his Denon with a digtial connection and noticed no difference so he sold the player.

    The JVC vs HK to my eyes is not a very fair comparison. When the competition became fair with the HK and Cambridge player he noticed no difference.

    The other thing is all of the listening done in these comparisons was sighted. Listening comparisons done with a blindfold and level matching the componets is the only honest way to compare since your ears do all the work and your eyes are removed from the situation.

    The rule is when using a digital connection the DAC's in the receiver/amplifier will do the decoding. There is no way to refute this.

    As to the differences in digital outputs between players. The general rule is there is no difference especially at similar price points. The only time I might give this some weight is with ultra high end gear. I to some extent give Hershon the benefit of the doubt since he had a witness present to hear the difference. But remember it was (all in one DVD/Receiver unit vs a stand alone DVD player.) Also we have no way of understanding the differences. One mans huge difference could be marginal to nothing to someone else.

  4. #29
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    Minor clarification. There was a slight difference in sound between the HK and Cambridge audio players but it was so minor, it wasn't worth spending an extra $500 or so dollars on keeping both of them. I preferred the HK sound but I admit I might have been subconsciously influenced because it was cheaper and the difference in sound between of them was very small.

  5. #30
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    Hershon,

    Have you ever tried using a blind fold when comparing componets. I have and it has helped with my decisions. It the only honest way in my opinion. The eyes and mind have a huge effect on what you hear or what you think you hear.

    This is not meant as a dig or anything. Just something to consider.

  6. #31
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    Your suggestion is a valid one. I should clarify that I usually ask someone else for their own opinion on this as well so I have a second opinion. In the case of the HK versus the Cambridge Audio player, Paul from this board came over and heard the 2 as well and agreed with me that there was a slight difference in sound between the 2 & it wasn't worth spending $500 for. I don't remember which one he preferred. When he did borrow the Cambridge Audio before I sold it on Ebay and listened to it on his Yamaha & B&W (?) system via I believe a digital connection, I think he slightly preferred the Cambridge Audio to his Sony DVD player.
    In regaards to my JVC built in DVD receiver and the HK 31 connected to my Denon 3801 receiver, the difference in sound was significant for the HK 31.

    When I do comparisons I always play CDR's and/or DVD+R's of the same recording right after each other.

    It does help to have a second opinion from a disinterested party though.

  7. #32
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    Actually Paul used the analogue connection.

    Your idea about a second opinion has a fatal flaw. He has different hearing. Where his hearing is at could be different than yours. Hearing loss is different for everyone. We all have lost some of are hearing. We also perceive sound in a different way from one another.

    Removing sight from the equation is the key. Using your ears is the only honest way to tell if there is a difference. Sighted tests will always be biased in some way. Not knowing which player is playing and using only your ears is the key. This way your basing everything on what you hear. With no bias from knowing which unit is playing.

  8. #33
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    thanks fora ll the help so far

    man i really want to buy it. come on someone convince me so i dont have buyers remorse

  9. #34
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    I dont quite understand your point of needing to be convinced. But here goes.


    If it where me I would get the 22 because you get the DVD player apsect. You said you dont need DVD-A and the HK cd player has QC issues. So everything points to the 22.

  10. #35
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    haha

    im about ready to pull the trigger

  11. #36
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Better to buy higher and not need it then to buy lower and want it.
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  12. #37
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    well i can get the dvd31 for $220 but from here:
    http://plasmacreations.com/customer/...roductid=32886

    but i dont know if they are authorized.

  13. #38
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    You didn't read my Post You Can Get this on Amazon for $225 or so

    I have no idea what you mean by authorized but as long as you have a warranty your covered by Harmon Kardon. as I previously stated you can get this from J&R which is world known for $229 and it turns out free shipping. Of course you'll get a full warranty. Its listed on Amazon.com under merchants for J&R.

    Anyway, if you get it there, next person who dogs me out here you need to tell off on my behalf!

  14. #39
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hershon
    I have no idea what you mean by authorized but as long as you have a warranty your covered by Harmon Kardon. as I previously stated you can get this from J&R which is world known for $229 and it turns out free shipping. Of course you'll get a full warranty. Its listed on Amazon.com under merchants for J&R.

    Anyway, if you get it there, next person who dogs me out here you need to tell off on my behalf!
    haha i saw some of those firey arguments on some other posts. I'll just stay out of it but thank you for helping me find a good deal.

  15. #40
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    i elected to go with the DVD 22, simply because i cant justify $50 for dvd audio.

  16. #41
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    i elected to go with the DVD 22, simply because i cant justify $50 for dvd audio.
    Cant remember where i was but it might have been HK website that had BStock,pretty good prices.
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  17. #42
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Cant remember where i was but it might have been HK website that had BStock,pretty good prices.
    I usually check to see if they have b-stock first, but they dont have them on their dvd players, or atleast not at the moment. if i ever decide to give their cd-changers a second chance, i'll go with b-stock though

  18. #43
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    well i can get the dvd31 for $220 but from here:
    http://plasmacreations.com/customer/...roductid=32886

    but i dont know if they are authorized.
    I think Amazon has the 31 for $230,no tax and free shipping and they are authorized dealer.
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  19. #44
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    thanks but i already ordered the dvd22 for $179 at newegg.com, which happens to be my favorite electronics website anyway.

  20. #45
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    i actually also won a new FL 8385 on ebay for $90, so i'll see how well that turns out, maybe i get lucky i did this because i like not having to change discs when listening to music, but i dont mind it when it comes to movies.

  21. #46
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    looks like im getting the DVD-22 from fedex today i'll let you know how it all turns out.

  22. #47
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Hook it up both ways and let us know.
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  23. #48
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    you mean optical and coax, or digital and analog?

  24. #49
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    you mean optical and coax, or digital and analog?
    Dig and analog,just for fun.
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  25. #50
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    well this one doesnt have the 6 channel outputs so the only analog option would be stereo

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