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Thread: Lcd Or Dlp?

  1. #1
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Lcd Or Dlp?

    I just picked up a Toshiba 52" DLP 52HM84 w/ the HD2+ chip. And I haven't taken it out of the box yet,as I do not move into my new house for another month yet. Now my question is should I off bought a LCD instead? The only reason I picked up the DLP was because it was on sale for a good price and i was in the market for a new one anyway. I didn't look at the LCD TV's while i was there, and i'm just thinking maybe i should have given them a look. I can still return the DLP if there is somthing better. This is for mostly home theater only and what ever other TV is to be watched will be from a non-hdtv sat.

    So which one offers the best picture? Or is it not quite that simple?

    Jay

  2. #2
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    It's definitely not that simple. I alerted Breezer to a couple of reviews of this model a while ago (run a search if you're interested). The only thing that you can do is to check out reviews and to see for yourself under the best viewing conditions possible. But there is no reason to suppose that you should have bought an LCD instead. Superficially, DLPs do blacks better than LCDs (though your model apparently is an exception). DLPs can suffer from the rainbow effect (the result of presenting color sequentially via a single color wheel rather than three chips), though relatively few people can actually see it, and they are subject to other benign types of video noise, which also don't bother most people who sit far enough away from the screen. LCDs in the past have been subject to the screen-door effect (visible gaps between pixels) and motion lag because of their pixels' relatively slow refresh rate. However, both these artifacts have largely been eliminated in the better models. Again, if you sit the recommended distance away from the screen, these defects are all but invisible if even present any more. Arguably, no standard interlaced programming looks as good on a DLP or an LCD, despite their often good onboard scalers and processors, as the feed from a progressive-scan DVD player (component or DVI/HDMI) or HD material from a cable box , off-air tuner, or satellite receiver. It's just the nature of these fixed-pixel beasts to thrive on higher-resolution material. Some people even buy a separate video processor for their lower-resolution material. The DVDO iScans are highly recommended, for example.

    Ed

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    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    I can't speak to your specific model, but as a general rule DLP has the potential to be marginally better overall (although each has its pluses and minuses).

    The main thing to worry about with DLP is the rainbow effect... If you don't see it (and most don't), then DLP should be at least as good as LCD as a general rule.

    If you are like me and *do* see the rainbow effect (it is when rainbows flash briefly over and over again on the screen; usually when a light object is on a dark background), then DLP is not a good choice... Also consider other people watching the set... Let them try it out too... because if *any* of them see the rainbow effect, they will most likely find the set too much to handle. The rainbow effect can only be seen by 5 - 10% of the public... So the odds are *heavily* in your favor... Believe me you will know if you see it, so don't worry that you might be missing it... It is one of those "you see it or you don't."

    BTW: The movie Star Trek Insurrection is the worst rainbow effect offender (for those that see it) that I have encountered... Try watching the dark scenes inside the Romulan ship with all the flashing lights on the set in the store (as you say you don't want to unpack your set yet)... If you (and anyone else viewing the set on a regular basis) make it through those scenes without noticing the rainbow effect, then you definitely don't see it, and you should be very happy with DLP.

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    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Thanks for your insight guys. I''ll go back to the store on Monday and see if they'll let me do a side by side comp.

    Jay

  5. #5
    still learning McFly's Avatar
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    my two cents

    One thing that scares me off the DLP's is simply the fact that there are over a million moving parts inside your set - all moving VERY quickly. Granted, the picture is fantastic and the whites and blacks surpass those found on a LCD - but it is the long-term reliability that makes me hesitate. Now I know that all TV's are made by man and machines and not by God, so they won't be perfect (I don't expect them to be. Anyone who does needs to get their head examined) but I would personally give up the whites and blacks of a DLP and put my money on an LCD so I can rest easier knowing that my LCD will probably not breakdown as much as a DLP might.

  6. #6
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    When you say "give up the whites and blacks" Is it a night and day difference or subtile. I was under the impression that DLP had but one spinning colour wheel. What else moves?

    Jay

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    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    Jay, for one thing, a DLP's mirrors have to move to block light when it's not needed (the difference between microdisplays and CRTs in black level is due to the fact that darkness on a CRT means that the set is actually producing no light, whereas on an LCD or DLP, it means that the set has to find a way to block the constant light source when the image callls for it). DLPs have deeper blacks, evident on various contrast test screens and visible under certain viewing conditions, but the degree of difference usually isn't "night and day," except at the extremes of execution (dreadful LCD vs. exceptional DLP). A few DLPs don't have any black-level advantage. A decent plasma trumps both DLP and LCD in this respect, falling short only of CRT's routine advantage, but even plasmas had to undergo growing pains before reaching second place. LCDs also use three separate chips for color, as opposed to the DLP's single color wheel (though a few expensive DLD projectors are able to produce color simultaneously).

    Ed

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    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Thanks ed.
    I've been trying to find out what kind of colour wheel the 52HM84 has and how fast it spins,but i can't find that info anywhere. Not even on the Toshiba website. And i'm told this would be the most important thing in whether or not the "rainbow effect" is visable.

    Jay

  9. #9
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    Jay, I can't say for sure, but my sense is that if Toshiba doesn't specify the speed of the color wheel on your model, it could be as low as 2x, or 120Hz (7200 RPM). The reason why I say so is that Toshiba has gone out of its way to advertise the color wheel speed (and number of segments) of its other DLP products, such as the TDP-MT8000 projector, which runs at 5x (9000 RPM) and has 7 segments. When they don't mention it, a red flag comes up for me. But this doesn't mean that you're automatically going to start seeing rainbows all over the place. Randy Tomlinson in his review (TPV 59) clearly stated that he saw none on this set. Another thing to consider regarding a fast color wheel is that it might make more of an audible whirring noise, which is why keeping the speed down to a minimum might be important.

    Ed

  10. #10
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    This is very frustrating!!!!! I'm going to Future shop at lunch to look at the Hitachi 50v500 LCD and the Toshiba 52HM84 side by side of an hour. I make a choice whether to Keep ny Toshiba or buy the 50v500. For 3299.00 i'd like to be sure i'm getting the best one i can.

  11. #11
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Ed, I just found out from two high-end dealers in Toronto,that the 52HM84 has a 7 segment 5x speed colour wheel. And as far as seeing the "RAINBOW EFFECT" it is basicalliy impossible with this unit. Toshiba e-mailed me back to verify the colour wheel specs.

    Any thoughts?

    Jay

  12. #12
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    Jay, that's about as good as it gets for a color wheel these days. As I said, Randy Tomlinson, who's a stickler for this kind of thing, saw no evidence of the rainbow effect. (By the way, did you see my synopsis of his review in my post to Breezer?) Personally, if I could get it at the right price, had done some comparative viewing, checked out reviews, and made sure that the set met my practical needs, I'd just buy it, set it up, and start having fun. Although this set probably wouldn't be rated at the top of the DLP heap (see TPV review), it doesn't appear to make any glaring errors. To be frank, the differences between the sets offered by the major brands at similar price points on similar platforms aren't staggering. So far as PQ is concerned, some people are more fastidious than others in checking for color temperature accuracy, greyscale tracking, resolution, and the relative abilities of the various inputs. But the better reviews generally give you this info (The Perfect Vision, Widescreen Review, Stereophile Ultimate A/V, Home Theater, CNET, etc.). Some practical considerations are whether the TV allows discrete input programming, separate off/on, number/type of inputs, and others. Price will often easily trump the degree of difference that separates good from excellent, but ultimately, this is a personal matter.

    Ed

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    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Thanks Ed, for all your input!!

    Jay

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    Hi Ed,

    Believe me, I share your frustration. And you must have unbelieveable self-control if you're letting that TV sit in the box, especially over this past long weekend. But I have followed Ed's advice as it does eventually lead to a calmer path. Its such a personal matter and at the end of the day, you'll be happy with whatever you have sitting in front of you, IF you sheild yourself from all the shoulda/coulda/woulda pains that come with over-analyzing all the techno-babble. Btw, I looked at the Toshiba as well, but I liked the Cinema Series (52hmx) a touch better - but maybe that's because of the look of the set's dark grey bezel, which gave rise to perceived differences in PQ. The Cinema Series is supposed to have a higher rate of wheel speed than the Theater series, but I don't see Rainbows so its incremental value doesn't matter to me. I must tell you (and Ed) that I have not yet made my purchase but I am going to do something very crude. My approach has been to trust my eyes more. So with that, I'm going with a Sony 55 inch Grand Wega RP LCD (KDF 55WF655), currently on backorder. Definitely not the latest or the greatest, but for my $2,600, its fine with me. I'm going to call my sales guy right after this, so I don't change my mind again. I don't have as much discipline as you.

    Breezer

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    AR Newbie Registered Member
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    I would stick with the DLP, I currently own a Samsung DLP and it looks great.

  16. #16
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Breezer, I was in contact with a rep from Toshiba and he told me the only difference between the 52HM84 and the 52HMX84 is that one has the HDTV tuner built in and the other one doesn't
    And yes, I like the dark bezel around the other one better two. But not enough to justify the price tag.


    Jay

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    I just skimmed throught the thread. DO NOT FORGET to get your display calibrated. I have been looking into caluibration pricing and it appears for 300 bucks they can calibrate the display. You can calibrate the display to a point. The technician has the special remote to access different features and the tech should calibrate your screen to, or as cloase to 6500 K as possible. This seems to be a must for CRTs, DLPs, LCDs, and Plasmas to get the most out of the display.

  18. #18
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Do any of the Calibration dvds out there help with that? (i.e) Digital video essentials,Avia.

    Jay

  19. #19
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEAFS264
    Ed, I just found out from two high-end dealers in Toronto,that the 52HM84 has a 7 segment 5x speed colour wheel. And as far as seeing the "RAINBOW EFFECT" it is basicalliy impossible with this unit. Toshiba e-mailed me back to verify the colour wheel specs.

    Any thoughts?

    Jay
    Maybe nearly impossible... They said that on the Samsung model I originally bought (the pedestal set AKA "The Kirk")... I absolutely loved that set and most certainly did not want to let it go back to the store... But I *did* see plenty of rainbow effect on it (and every other DLP I auditioned). I do not believe the Toshiba's color wheel spins any faster than that set... So I definitely recommend making *sure* you don't see the effect... It really is *highly* unlikely (why do *I* have to be one of those who sees the darn things....), but better safe than sorry.

    ---Dave
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  20. #20
    Forum Regular Thatch_Ear's Avatar
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    I have an early Samsung DLP and the color wheel had to be replaced and the light went at around 3900 hours of use. The wheel was under warrenty and you can replace the light easily by yourself. I bought the TV with the thought that the part that will go bad the most often while not exactly cheap is easy to replace and that the unit can be restored and last for a long time.
    It also is light weight and 2 people can easily move it. I have mine on a baker's rack on wheels with my hifi gear and like how I can easily roll everything away from the wall to access wiring etc.
    And the picture is great. I don't watch a lot of programming but do watch a lot of movies and while I wanted something that was exellent now I also wanted something that's major componants are easily changed out for a long life. So far so good.
    One thing not mentioned so far is you will get a lot of heat waste blown out the back by a fan. The xeon bulbs run hotter than fire and since I live in Texas I put in a ceiling fan for summer time watching.
    David Thatcher

  21. #21
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    Breezer, Big Congratulations.

    Jay, since we're all in this thread together, I second Dave's recommendation that you make sure about the rainbow effect. But don't agonize about it. You should know pretty quickly when you look at something colorful, especially against a black background. You'll either see a rainbow of color above it or not. If you sit in front of the set for hours wondering if it's there, you can forget it. When Dave laments that he's in the minority, he ain't kidding.

    As wofontenot says, an ISF calibrator can bring your color temperature into line throughout the light continuum at D6500K, the professional standard. Manfacturers tend to bias their sets toward one color or the other to make them look more distinctive and more stunning on the showroom floor, or in your own well-lit room. Red and green pushes seem to be popular these days. Blue was in vogue for a long time, under the assumption that a blue bias to the greyscale can make whites look brighter (I used to hate Mitsubishi sets for it--blue bias was my rainbow effect). A calibration disk cannot fix a color temperature that deviates from the norm (nor can the TV's own color-temperature options--though warm or pro is usually closest), but it can bring out the best in the brightness and contrast levels. ISF calibration can also fix many color anomalies in the set via the service menu that you can't reach with a disk alone. As much as they might like it, however, many people cannot afford an ISF calibration ($200 to c. $500) on top of a new TV. In that case, the calibration disk can often suffice either in the short or long term. Every once in a great while, a display will be close to D65 out of the box. If I remember correctly, the big 1080p Samsung flat LCD is pretty close.

    Ed

  22. #22
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Well boys, I went to Future Shop at lunch and staired at both for 45 goddamn minutes and I have to say the DLP was a much better picture!!! I tried 4 of my fav dvds and the picture was very good. I could not notice the rainbow effect, but the room was very bright,so it could still be there. So i'll be keeping my Toshiba and hope for the best when she comes out next month in the new house.

    Thanks again!!


    Jay

  23. #23
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    Hi Leaf,

    Good for you!! I'd say that was a lunch "hour" well spent. And since you no longer need to lament over your choice anymore, I have a stupid question for you. Since your sign-off DOES encourage "stupid questions", I can't resist laying one on you. Where are you keeping that nicely boxed TV set until the new house is ready? Couldn't you open her up gently now, keep the packaging (if you have room), play with a calibration DVD (I'll be using an Avia very soon), and give her a proper whirl?? Just thought I'd ask.

    Oh, I'm glad you checked with Toshiba on the difference between the HM and HMX. It's amazing how salespeople can spin their b.s. with such conviction sometimes. Sorry that I shared bad info.
    Breezer

  24. #24
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEAFS264
    Well boys, I went to Future Shop at lunch and staired at both for 45 goddamn minutes and I have to say the DLP was a much better picture!!! I tried 4 of my fav dvds and the picture was very good. I could not notice the rainbow effect, but the room was very bright,so it could still be there. So i'll be keeping my Toshiba and hope for the best when she comes out next month in the new house.

    Thanks again!!


    Jay
    Excellent news indeed... If you did not see the rainbow effect after 45 minutes of material, I am near 100% certain you don't see it. Sounds like you have made a winner of a choice on your Toshiba DLP. Good luck with it!

    ---Dave
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  25. #25
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,
    Hey Breezer..... no worries about bad info. If you get information given to you about a product people are talking about and it turns out to be a lie from the source. That is what i feel this form is all about. If we all don't share ALL our info, these salesman are just going to keep suckering people into buying things they might otherwise not be interested in.
    And as far as the TV goes....it is being stored at the mother-inlaws house as i live in a basement app. Taken along time to save up for this house, but the TV is my reward.

    Jay

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