• 11-17-2003, 01:24 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Indiana Jones Trilogy, my comments some rebuttals
    Before we migrated to the new board, I remember reading a complaint about the Indiana Jones Trilogy being of disappointing sound quality. I would like to complete refute those comments(shoot!! I cannot find the thread since we made the changeover). If my memory hasn't left me(as it usually does when I am in a drunken stupor) one comment was made regarding an apparent lack of deep bass on Raiders. Well, that movie has more instances of deep bass than the temple of doom. They made specific comments regarding the gunshoots they found enemic. Well, whenever a pistol of gun blast went off in the movie, I could feel the bass transient wave hit my chest and body. That does not sound like enemic bass to me.

    These soundtracks despite their age, have been taken directly from the 6 track magnetic masters, messaged intensely, re eq'd for home play, and have had added LFE effects for emphasis. In some parts, these soundtracks sound as good as modern day digitallly created soundtracks.

    To the poster that made these comments, calibrate your sub, and balance your system. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with these soundtracks. They have a VERY good sound for their age, and better sound than some recently produced soundtracks.

    (off my soapbox and into the crowd)

    Sir Terrence
  • 11-17-2003, 01:40 PM
    JSE
    Let's try this again. Here is the link!
  • 11-17-2003, 01:40 PM
    JSE
    Here is the Link, FWIW.
    I am glad you found it to be impressive. I have been wanting to get the set and have been a little hesistant so far.
  • 11-17-2003, 02:34 PM
    kelsci
    Good to see you onboard your LORDSHIP
    I have not purchased these DVDs. I still have a working CLD-M90 LD player with a CLD and CAV version of RAIDERS and a CLV version of THE LAST CRUSADE. The RAIDERS version had FM analogue sound but was considered a disc of the year for sound quality when it was released. The CLV version played louder than the CAV version, but the CAV version had cleaner sound. At the time that I had purchased the CLV disc, I had a MAGNIVISION 8040GY LD player whose picture and sound quality were limited to what was on the disc. The picture quality on both the CAV-CLV disc were not as sharp or contrasted as they should have been in the era of analogue video transfers but were adequate. At that time years back I ran the disc on that DYNAQUAD system I have mentioned in the past that does what I claim it does and you claim it cannot do what I claim it does from your knowledge of engineering. The two areas that I got split surround was from the gun battle in the bar scene in the Himalayas and the fight scene between Indy and the German soldier near that winged aircraft. If your LORDSHIP says the sound quality on the DVD is good, your subject here believes you. Both RAIDERS and CRUSADE were excellent in two channel FM analogue sound on LD. I did have the LD from a friend for TEMPLE OF DOOM. There was something wrong with the mix on the disc, but not on HBO's broadcast of the film.
  • 11-17-2003, 02:56 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    JSE,

    Thanks man for finding the link. With some careful searching and probing I also found it. Go get the DVD's, they sound and look great. I really enjoyed my 6 or so hour marathon watching them back to back and in order.

    Sir Terrence
  • 11-17-2003, 08:20 PM
    Woochifer
    Welcome back T-man! I go on vacation for a couple of weeks and the board suddenly migrates over to whatever THIS is!

    Anyway, I can't believe that someone's complaining about the audio quality of this DVD set. For a 1981 movie, Raiders sounds pretty damn good. I thought the overall range on the soundtrack was very good, and the sounds were well placed. If anything, the only drawback that I could hear was the surrounds, which sound like they're monophonic. But, if the movie was originally released without split surrounds, then it would make sense. The one thing I'd be curious of is how much would be required to produce a split surround 5.1 soundtrack for that movie. I see older movies getting redone with 5.1 soundtracks pretty frequently, but some of them (like the Terminator) sound like they didn't use too many of the original elements.

    Another impression of that DVD set is just how good The Last Crusade sounds. The difference between that 1981 Raiders soundtrack and the 1989 Crusade soundtrack was pretty startling.
  • 11-18-2003, 08:56 AM
    Quagmire
    Nice to see you made the transition, T-Man.

    I haven't watched the whole trilogy yet, but I have seen portions of "Raiders" and "The Last Crusade" - never really like the second movie that much. IMO, sound quality is quite good. "The Last Crusade" was always one of my favorite movies on VHS with respect to the quality of the soundtrack produced by Pro Logic; particularly the opening sequence with the reverberant drums in the surround channels and the rising score as the movie is introduced to the audience. The soundtrack is very involving/enveloping and directional cues and pans are also well done. The DD mix for DVD certainly hasn't lost any of those fine qualities.

    I'm happy that this trilogy finally made it to DVD... now if we could just get a similar release of the original "Star Wars" trilogy, but that probably won't happen until after the theatrical release of the final movie. Oh well...

    Q
  • 11-18-2003, 09:58 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    .".. now if we could just get a similar release of the original "Star Wars" trilogy, but that probably won't happen until after the theatrical release of the final movie"

    Quag,
    It was announced that the Star Wars Trilogy will be released September 2004, so you have just shy of one year to wait.

    Wooch,
    Welcome back to you buddy! How was the trip??
    While listening carefully, I did find some instances of split surrounds, but not much. It was released in 6 track magnetic tape, but with five front speakers and mono surround, so some repurposing was done to it. I firmly believe that Spielberg and Lucas wanted the soundtrack to remain as faithful to the original release. I do know that the LFE track had to be constructed because Raiders was not released in Dolby six track with a baby boom channel(what we call LFE today) To create split surrounds would not be all that difficult. It just mean going back to the original elements, and redirecting some sounds to each surround channel. In these days of mixing board automation, this is not difficult at all. Money is the issue because studio time costs big time!!!

    Sir Terrence
  • 11-18-2003, 11:54 AM
    Swerd
    Indiana Jones Trilogy
    Glad to hear that these DVDs get the Sir T stamp of approval. My birthday is coming up soon and I had considered getting these until I read the post that panned their sound quality. Now I can look forward to getting them for myself :D
  • 11-18-2003, 06:44 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Wooch,
    Welcome back to you buddy! How was the trip??
    While listening carefully, I did find some instances of split surrounds, but not much. It was released in 6 track magnetic tape, but with five front speakers and mono surround, so some repurposing was done to it. I firmly believe that Spielberg and Lucas wanted the soundtrack to remain as faithful to the original release. I do know that the LFE track had to be constructed because Raiders was not released in Dolby six track with a baby boom channel(what we call LFE today) To create split surrounds would not be all that difficult. It just mean going back to the original elements, and redirecting some sounds to each surround channel. In these days of mixing board automation, this is not difficult at all. Money is the issue because studio time costs big time!!!

    Sir Terrence

    Hey T -

    Great to be back. Great info as always. Had a wonderful time over in Quebec, Montreal, and L.A. The food in Quebec was to die for, and ridiculously cheap with the exchange rates. Montreal, very diverse city with tons of late-night hangs (unlike S.F. which rolls up pretty early), and stores that close by 6pm! My broken high school French assured the natives who the foreigners were in their midst!

    In L.A., I finally got to see a movie at the refurbished Chinese theatre. Beautiful remodeling job, but I was unimpressed with the new sound system. They noticeably beefed up the bass, but seemed to really falter in several other areas. Maybe it was because I sat pretty far off to the side, but the dialog intelligibility was probably the worst of any THX auditorium I've been to. (the sound at my seat was very echoey) BTW, Matrix Revolutions pretty much sucks -- what were they thinking?

    And the overall sound was gratingly harsh. I read that the Chinese installed JBL's newest screen speakers, and my overall impression was that its harshness was similar to what I noticed at the Cinerama Dome last summer after that theatre was refurbished, and their website said that they also use a custom JBL setup (but the dialog intelligibility seemed much better over there). I used to think that the Chinese's sound system was very good but a little on the bland side, but it never made me grit my teeth either.

    Anyway, I've been swamped at work since returning, but when I come up for air, I'll have to give you a ring and have an East Bay powwow in the next couple of weeks.
  • 11-19-2003, 12:47 PM
    victord
    Here is my 2 cents.

    First of all, I have bought the dvd set. I bought it because I enjoyed the movies period. The sound quality, epsecially the first two movies, when compared to the best of the bests such as the first Matrix, leave much to desire. Maybe there are only a few sound effects in the movies.

    I was a bit more disappointed on the video side, again, especially for the first two movies. Likewise, when compared with the best of the bests, like the "Fifth Element," is only ok. The overall picture is a touch reddish and lacks details in shadow areas and dark scenes.

    But, hey, I still like the movies.
  • 11-19-2003, 04:06 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by victord
    Here is my 2 cents.

    First of all, I have bought the dvd set. I bought it because I enjoyed the movies period. The sound quality, epsecially the first two movies, when compared to the best of the bests such as the first Matrix, leave much to desire. Maybe there are only a few sound effects in the movies.

    I was a bit more disappointed on the video side, again, especially for the first two movies. Likewise, when compared with the best of the bests, like the "Fifth Element," is only ok. The overall picture is a touch reddish and lacks details in shadow areas and dark scenes.

    But, hey, I still like the movies.

    Let me get this straight, you are comparing soundtracks that have been mixed, mastered, and encoded purely in digital form that are recent, to soundtracks that were mixed 20 years ago, on analog equipment, and recorded on magnetic tape. This comparison is as absurd as it is laughable. Lets get down to the facts. According to the 4 1/3 octave spectrum analyzers that occasionally inhabit my system, I found at least 10 cases of 25hz and under bass in Raiders. There were NOT that many cases in the first matrix movie. The first matrix was encoded at 384kbps Dolby digital, and had a rather flat 2 deminsional soundfield. Raiders was encoded at 448kbps, and has a rather open, 3 deminsional soundfield. The music also sounds a little less strained on Raiders(pay particular attention to the recorded strings in the orchestra of each movies) These are facts and opinion.

    These comments also go for the video side of things. If you look VERY carefully, you will not find any sign of edge enhancement on any of the Indiana Jones trilogy. Matrix is riddled with it. If is unfair to compare any of the trilogy to a superbit title. The mastering techniques of each are very different(as it the bit allocation to the picture only) and are not comparable at all(no reference point).

    If you are going to compare soundtracks, it might be wise to choose soundtracks in that were produced within the same time period. I listened very closely to all of the soundtracks in the Indiana Jones series, and found them to be of extremely good quality for their age. I think you are doing these soundtracks a complete disservice by comparing them to modern day soundtracks which are assembled a completely different way, and with higher fidelity.

    Sir Terrence
  • 11-20-2003, 10:21 AM
    victord
    sir terrence
    Hold on now.......there is no need to get technical about it. I made the comparisons based solely on my visual and auditory perceptions--the kind of comparisons that most people would do. I bet that most of the people who have bought the dvd set did so because they enjoyed the movies, as I did, and not so much because of the superior "448kbps" recording or the absence of "edge enhancement" features you had mentioned.

    Honestly, how many times and in how many audio/video stores have you seen the lobby shooting scene in the Matrix is being demo'd? The movie (the Matrix) itself is probably senseless, but it has the visual and auditory impacts. Oh, I also have that dvd.....just for show!!!

    Like I said, I (and possibly millions of other fans) was sold on the overall contents, the artistic parts, of the movies. If I were to seek for wall-rattling sounds and sharp-as-a-razor pictures w/ correct skin tone color, this trilogy is not it.

    In my opinion, the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy dvd's are probably the best of both worlds. And I said "probably" because, of course, the 3rd one is not out yet. The first two are extraordinary.
  • 11-20-2003, 04:27 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by victord
    Hold on now.......there is no need to get technical about it. I made the comparisons based solely on my visual and auditory perceptions--the kind of comparisons that most people would do. I bet that most of the people who have bought the dvd set did so because they enjoyed the movies, as I did, and not so much because of the superior "448kbps" recording or the absence of "edge enhancement" features you had mentioned.

    Honestly, how many times and in how many audio/video stores have you seen the lobby shooting scene in the Matrix is being demo'd? The movie (the Matrix) itself is probably senseless, but it has the visual and auditory impacts. Oh, I also have that dvd.....just for show!!!

    Like I said, I (and possibly millions of other fans) was sold on the overall contents, the artistic parts, of the movies. If I were to seek for wall-rattling sounds and sharp-as-a-razor pictures w/ correct skin tone color, this trilogy is not it.

    In my opinion, the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy dvd's are probably the best of both worlds. And I said "probably" because, of course, the 3rd one is not out yet. The first two are extraordinary.

    Here is the problem with your observations. It gave people an unfounded negative impression of the technical aspects of these movies. The picture was reddish on YOUR television, but not on mine or any of the reviewers who have reviewed the movies. You negatively critique the sound, and compare it to soundtracks mixed and recorded some 20 years later, when in fact the sound can hold its own againist many of todays soundtracks. When you write negative press, people read. If your negative press is not factual, then you discourage one from purchasing a product unnecessarily. Data rates and edge enhancement are just as much a part of the DVD as your personal observations. The excessive use of edge enhancement can give the impression of superior video quality. Unfortunately the opposite is true, there is actually less video resolution. Video wise the Matrix is not a paragon of quality. It is used as a demo because it is loud which draws attention to the system it is being played on. Loud is not better, its just loud and a great way of getting ones attention

    Sir Terrence
  • 11-20-2003, 06:43 PM
    kingcrim05
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Here is the problem with your observations. It gave people an unfounded negative impression of the technical aspects of these movies. The picture was reddish on YOUR television, but not on mine or any of the reviewers who have reviewed the movies. You negatively critique the sound, and compare it to soundtracks mixed and recorded some 20 years later, when in fact the sound can hold its own againist many of todays soundtracks. When you write negative press, people read. If your negative press is not factual, then you discourage one from purchasing a product unnecessarily. Data rates and edge enhancement are just as much a part of the DVD as your personal observations. The excessive use of edge enhancement can give the impression of superior video quality. Unfortunately the opposite is true, there is actually less video resolution. Video wise the Matrix is not a paragon of quality. It is used as a demo because it is loud which draws attention to the system it is being played on. Loud is not better, its just loud and a great way of getting ones attention

    Sir Terrence

    True, but he did say LOTR kicks ass both visually and sonically.....So he's not a complete idiot.
  • 11-20-2003, 09:32 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kingcrim05
    True, but he did say LOTR kicks ass both visually and sonically.....So he's not a complete idiot.

    Well, if he's referring to the extended editions, then I would agree with that. But, if he thinks that the theatrical edition DVD of LOTR:FOTR is anywhere near reference quality, then I would say he's mistaken (audio levels and bass way overshot, visible flaws in the image quality, audible distortion in some scenes).
  • 11-21-2003, 05:33 AM
    victord
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Well, if he's referring to the extended editions, then I would agree with that. But, if he thinks that the theatrical edition DVD of LOTR:FOTR is anywhere near reference quality, then I would say he's mistaken (audio levels and bass way overshot, visible flaws in the image quality, audible distortion in some scenes).

    You bet. I have both "Lord of the Rings" movies in the extended versions.

    Sir Terrence, I don't think I was being negative at all in my opinion about the "Indiana Jones" trilogy dvd set. I say it as I see it. I'm neither a technical person nor expert in the hometheater business, but I'm not just an average joe in this field either. True, that my RPTV is not properly ISF-calibrated, and my surround system is not THX certified. But I use calibration disks (Avia, Video Essential, and Digital Video Essential) to set my whole system to the hometheater "standard" the best that I can. So you CANNOT tell me that the picture was reddish on MY set and not yours or anybody else's. Perhaps, you have a higher tolerance toward red than I do, or, maybe, YOUR set is in dire need of calibration.
    If the red cast I'm seeing on the Raiders is due to bad set calibration, then I should see the same thing in all other movies. Sorry to say it, but it doesn't happen. If you don't have copy of "The Fifth Element" superbit disk, get one, then compare its picture quality, especially the skin tone, to that of the Raiders. You'll see what I'm talking about. And if you want bass, try listening to the dept charge sequences in "U-571" at full blast. That's the type of bass you use to test the sub system.

    Considering its two decade-plus age, I agree with you that the movies more than hold its own against some recent releases, and that's why I bought the set. To tell you the truth, I would have the bought the dvd's regardless of the quality. But getting this (relatively) high quality in them is a big plus.
  • 11-25-2003, 12:14 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by victord
    You bet. I have both "Lord of the Rings" movies in the extended versions.

    Sir Terrence, I don't think I was being negative at all in my opinion about the "Indiana Jones" trilogy dvd set. I say it as I see it. I'm neither a technical person nor expert in the hometheater business, but I'm not just an average joe in this field either. True, that my RPTV is not properly ISF-calibrated, and my surround system is not THX certified. But I use calibration disks (Avia, Video Essential, and Digital Video Essential) to set my whole system to the hometheater "standard" the best that I can. So you CANNOT tell me that the picture was reddish on MY set and not yours or anybody else's. Perhaps, you have a higher tolerance toward red than I do, or, maybe, YOUR set is in dire need of calibration.
    If the red cast I'm seeing on the Raiders is due to bad set calibration, then I should see the same thing in all other movies. Sorry to say it, but it doesn't happen. If you don't have copy of "The Fifth Element" superbit disk, get one, then compare its picture quality, especially the skin tone, to that of the Raiders. You'll see what I'm talking about. And if you want bass, try listening to the dept charge sequences in "U-571" at full blast. That's the type of bass you use to test the sub system.

    Considering its two decade-plus age, I agree with you that the movies more than hold its own against some recent releases, and that's why I bought the set. To tell you the truth, I would have the bought the dvd's regardless of the quality. But getting this (relatively) high quality in them is a big plus.

    ." So you CANNOT tell me that the picture was reddish on MY set and not yours or anybody else's. Perhaps, you have a higher tolerance toward red than I do, or, maybe, YOUR set is in dire need of calibration."

    Okay, no reviews I have read(and I have read about a half dozen)EVER mention a red push on any of these discs. Second, the video portion of my system is calibrated by two guys that work in the home video department of my old studio(Paramount Pictures) and these guys know as much about film AND video as the great Joe Kane himself. My RPTV was just calibrated by them a month ago, and they did not use consumer test discs to do it. They used video gear such a color temperature analyzer/calibrator and various other PROFESSIONAL tools that are NOT available to the everyday consumer. I see absolutely no red push what so ever on my set, nor have I heard it from other who have viewed the movie for themselves. If you were to consider all these FACTS(not just musing from one individual)then the fault would naturally be in either the calibration of the set, or something in the encoding is upsetting the color decoder in your set. Whatever the problem is, its not happening on anyone set but yours.

    The consumer based calibration disc get you in the ballpark, but are not the end all to the calibration process. There are at least a dozen or so other steps that must be completed before a set is properly and accurately calibrated. Had your set been calibrate by an ISF technician, then you would probably have an argument here, however, it was not, and as a consequence you have a calibration issue that has cropped up that perhaps didn't exist before(or maybe it did, and you didn't notice it)

    And sir, when your set is inaccurate, I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT IS INACCURATE because it IS!!! Even if you did calibrate with any of the consumer calibration disc. And there is no such thing as a hometheater standard. All standards are derived from SPMTE standards that govern theaters, dubbing stages, post production houses, and encoding facilites.

    Sir Terrence