I was going to ask what replacing a Sub cable would do

[E-Stat]

What exactly is your interpretation of difference?

I'll bite. First of all, let me fully qualify my answer as to what I hear in my system using my components in my RF environment with the cords I use (all of which also employ various shielding and filtering mechanisms).

The differences are indeed subtle. They manifest themselves overall as a quieter background, blacker if you will, that allow more information to be revealed. It is free of an artificial brightness that sits on top of the music. On the Holst Hymms from the Rig Veda piece, I find better articulation on the female voice.

In the light of modes and nodes of more than 15-20dbs in any given room, do you think that wire can make a difference under those conditions?.

Given that they are related to separate issues, yes. Room nodes largely affect the bottom octaves, where cords typically affect mid to high frequency octaves.

Until a person fully tweaks the room first, I do not care what cables you put in your system, it will not be audible to the ears.

Same answer to same previous assertion.

There are so many variables that have to be dealt with before I believe there is a audible difference to wires. I do not think even 5% of rooms even meet that level, so I am always suspect when somebody makes any claims about the audible qualities of any wires.

I would be the first to agree that getting the room right should be job #1. Unless of course, you listen to headphones in which case the reduced RF glare will be even more apparent.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'll bite. First of all, let me fully qualify my answer as to what I hear in my system using my components in my RF environment with the cords I use (all of which also employ various shielding and filtering mechanisms).

The differences are indeed subtle. They manifest themselves overall as a quieter background, blacker if you will, that allow more information to be revealed. It is free of an artificial brightness that sits on top of the music. On the Holst Hymms from the Rig Veda piece, I find better articulation on the female voice.

E,
Granted, you represent the 1 percentile that has probably paid attention to the rooms background noise level, and early reflection amplitude. However too many others do not, and make simular claims to cable performance that in reality are not possible in their rooms with little, or no control.

Given that they are related to separate issues, yes. Room nodes largely affect the bottom octaves, where cords typically affect mid to high frequency octaves.

The effects of a mode can extend well into the upper frequencies my masking their their output. I know you understand that if I have a mode that is 15db higher than the rest of the frequencies at any given time, a masking effect will occur. Also early and late reflections occur at all frequencies, and sometimes are very audible based on amplitude. So you can have acoustical problems that extend into the upper frequencies that prevent any meaningful comparison of wires. Since most folks do not bother to treat their rooms, comparisons in most rooms are contaminated by background noise and acoustical problems and therefore can be rendered unreliable and ineffective.

I would be the first to agree that getting the room right should be job #1. Unless of course, you listen to headphones in which case the reduced RF glare will be even more apparent.

rw

If you listen mostly to multichannel music, then headphones are useless.

[E-Stat]

However too many others do not, and make simular claims to cable performance that in reality are not possible in their rooms with little, or no control.

Ok. I just never say never.

Also early and late reflections occur at all frequencies, and sometimes are very audible based on amplitude. So you can have acoustical problems that extend into the upper frequencies that prevent any meaningful comparison of wires.

That is especially the case with bipolars like Joe and I both use. The back wave must be controlled so as to not confuse the main image.

Since most folks do not bother to treat their rooms, comparisons in most rooms are contaminated by background noise and acoustical problems and therefore can be rendered unreliable and ineffective.

Nothing to disagree about here. At the very least, I'm all about buying a Rat Shack SPL meter and a test CD with bass decades for the bottom three octaves or so.

I once had a somewhat strained conversation with Woodman on the potential benefits of using after market power cords. He used lots of underlines. He resolutely couldn't imagine how such could be. Since I am a computer engineer and not an electrical engineer, I rely on experiential evidence instead. Although he never would talk about specific gear, I strongly suspect our exposure was very different. He likewise took an absolutist standpoint and attempted a bad analogy with a gas pump.

"When I try to tell them that this is just a physical impossibility, that there is simply nothing that a power cord can do that will have the slightest ompact on the output of the device in question ... well, you know the rest of the story."

Yes I do. The use of theoretical bigotry devoid of relevant experience. Search for "buick" by me if you want to read the posts.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

Years ago when I got my BSEE I did not have believe that wires and cables could sound different. I would have slapped someone who tried to tell me a power cord could make something sound different. Since then I got my MSIT and learned a lot about how things sound.
I now know that everything can make a difference. Different wires and cables sound different and power cords really do make a difference. Along the way I've learned the importance of the room. I've spent considerable time and money treating my listening room to be as neutral as possible.
There are some things I'm skeptical about but I've learned to give things a listen. I don't reject something because I don't understand why it does or doesn't do what it's claimed to do. I let my ears be the judge. When I left the "Julian Hirsch" all things sound the same school my system started sounding better and I started listening to more music.
Listening more is the best indicator that your system is better. If it sounds better to you, then it is. Remember, the listening experience is subjective. All those objectivists who say I am deluding myself can "eat my shorts". I spend my money any way I want. When they start supporting my purchases with their funds then they can have a say in what I buy. Until then it's up to them to prove I'm not hearing what I say, not the opposite.

[Hyfi]

Sorry guys, I did not mean for this thread to turn into a dreaded debate between the Black & Red Brigade and the rest of us. I was just trying to get some opinions on Sub cables and others experiences with different Sub cables. It appears that anywhere a question like this is asked, people like to chime in to tell others they are nuts, either because they can hear a difference or they can't. Niether of which address the original question or theme of the thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I spent a year or two posting and argueing on the cable board a few years back and these discussions got plenty heated and never any resolution or definitive answer one way or the other. Luckily, a few people finally gave up thier crusade for deafness and ignorance and went back to listening to their transistor radios and left those who believe be.

I am not hear to argue with anyone about what I can hear or what someone else can't hear. I just wanted some opinions on Sub cables from those who have tried different ones and could offer reasonable suggestions. I figure, if you can't address the original question without the standard argument, don't reply to it. Out of the nearly 20 replies to the thread, I think I came away with one or two real replies to my question.

Carry on........

[markw]

You opened a thread on a confrontational subject with a confrontational statement. That's fine, but don't try to lie about your intentions. You simply wantes to start a shiite storm.

As far as I care, you might as well said you got your info from Elvis. Coming from you, I could honestly say that I think you really believe it. But, I won't argue with you. That would be like trying to convince someone with science and facts that their chosen religion is bogus. Facts can't compete with beliefs.

I'm still waiting for "real" evidence that subwoofer cables of similar construction sound different. After all, they only pass a range of m oh, maybe 80 - 100 hz or so. That's almost DC, and that's no problem for virtually any cable to pass with no degradation.

Now, if you were talking much, much higher frequencies you might have a case. These I will discuss without prejudice. I worked with microwaves and believe me, here signal transfer does make a measurable difference.

But, if you are comfortable in your beliefs, have at it. It's your money.

[markw]

I'll bite. First of all, let me fully qualify my answer as to what I hear in my system using my components in my RF environment with the cords I use (all of which also employ various shielding and filtering mechanisms).

The differences are indeed subtle. They manifest themselves overall as a quieter background, blacker if you will, that allow more information to be revealed. It is free of an artificial brightness that sits on top of the music. On the Holst Hymms from the Rig Veda piece, I find better articulation on the female voice.


Given that they are related to separate issues, yes. Room nodes largely affect the bottom octaves, where cords typically affect mid to high frequency octaves.


Same answer to same previous assertion.


I would be the first to agree that getting the room right should be job #1. Unless of course, you listen to headphones in which case the reduced RF glare will be even more apparent.

rw

We're talkin' subwoofer cables here. If it improves the female voice, you've got other problems there.

[JoeE SP9]

Sorry guys, I did not mean for this thread to turn into a dreaded debate between the Black & Red Brigade and the rest of us. I was just trying to get some opinions on Sub cables and others experiences with different Sub cables. It appears that anywhere a question like this is asked, people like to chime in to tell others they are nuts, either because they can hear a difference or they can't. Niether of which address the original question or theme of the thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I spent a year or two posting and argueing on the cable board a few years back and these discussions got plenty heated and never any resolution or definitive answer one way or the other. Luckily, a few people finally gave up thier crusade for deafness and ignorance and went back to listening to their transistor radios and left those who believe be.

I am not hear to argue with anyone about what I can hear or what someone else can't hear. I just wanted some opinions on Sub cables from those who have tried different ones and could offer reasonable suggestions. I figure, if you can't address the original question without the standard argument, don't reply to it. Out of the nearly 20 replies to the thread, I think I came away with one or two real replies to my question.

Carry on........

I hear differences in cables. Trying a selection of cables to find what best suits your own ears and gear is the only way to satisfy yourself. This is why I originally suggested Fatwhyre. Try some cables. Find what you like best and be done with it. Go with your own ears and gut feeling. If you spend an enornous amount of cash so what. It's your money and last time I checked this was still America. You know, the land where you can spend your money on what you want!

[Fergymunster]

You opened a thread on a confrontational subject with a confrontational statement. That's fine, but don't try to lie about your intentions. You simply wantes to start a shiite storm.

As far as I care, you might as well said you got your info from Elvis. Coming from you, I could honestly say that I think you really believe it. But, I won't argue with you. That would be like trying to convince someone with science and facts that their chosen religion is bogus. Facts can't compete with beliefs.

I'm still waiting for "real" evidence that subwoofer cables of similar construction sound different. After all, they only pass a range of m oh, maybe 80 - 100 hz or so. That's almost DC, and that's no problem for virtually any cable to pass with no degradation.

Now, if you were talking much, much higher frequencies you might have a case. These I will discuss without prejudice. I worked with microwaves and believe me, here signal transfer does make a measurable difference.

But, if you are comfortable in your beliefs, have at it. It's your money.

I agree with Hyfi on this one,he's looking for a sub cable.This discussion has turned into an angery and heated debate as usual.We could all talk about cables differences in till we turn blue in the face and sleep like a baby at night.Perhaps some anger management classes are in order..

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I agree with Hyfi on this one,he's looking for a sub cable.This discussion has turned into an angery and heated debate as usual.We could all talk about cables differences in till we turn blue in the face and sleep like a baby at night.Perhaps some anger management classes are in order..

You call this angry?? Go to the cable forum, this is Disneyland in comparison to that. Besides nobody is angry at anyone, at least not from this end

[markw]

I agree with Hyfi on this one,he's looking for a sub cable.This discussion has turned into an angery and heated debate as usual.We could all talk about cables differences in till we turn blue in the face and sleep like a baby at night.Perhaps some anger management classes are in order..

This is a free country and everyone is free to believe what they want, even though it flies in the face of sciences, logic, and reality as long as others can believe the opposite.

After all, everyone needs to make a living, even the guys who sell white van speakers, right? After all, i'm sure many people who bought 'em love 'em and believe they got a great deal. Of course, those who know better just snicker...

[E-Stat]

We're talkin' subwoofer cables here. If it improves the female voice, you've got other problems there.

Read Sir TT's question again to which I responded.

rw

[markw]

Read Sir TT's question again to which I responded.

My response top you was half in jest as this initially started out as a subwoofer cable thread. ...and that is the light in which my participatition here should be viewed.

[E-Stat]

...and that is the light in which my participatition here should be viewed.

I saw the winking smiley, but wanted to make my position clear.

Potentially, the use of high capacitance or poorly shielded cables could load down the input of an amp and/or pass RFI to it if the outputs were in parallel affecting the full range part. FWIW, I don't think much about the ICs used going from the LFE output on my HT receiver to the powered subs. Because it is a separate circuit with a variable low pass filter, it works independently of the other five channels.


rw

[markw]

Potentially, the use of high capacitance or poorly shielded cables could load down the input of an amp and/or pass RFI to it if the outputs were in parallel affecting the full range part. FWIW, I don't think much about the ICs used going from the LFE output on my HT receiver to the powered subs. Because it is a separate circuit with a variable low pass filter, it works independently of the other five channels.

Potentially, I think you're grasping at straws here. Gee, It seems I've heard that term "high capacitance cables" just a few weeks ago. In fact, I recall being the one to bring it up. Have you ever heard of high capacitance cables as being common enough on the market to be an issue within the past thirty or so years?

No, sub specific cables are a nice way to make money. Any decent interconnect will do fine. It's just that some have different standards for "decent".

[E-Stat]

Have you ever heard of high capacitance cables as being common enough on the market to be an issue within the past thirty or so years?

If, like me you choose to not run an active preamp in your setup and/or use long IC runs, then the answer is yes. You'll roll off the top.

Any decent interconnect will do fine. It's just that some have different standards for "decent".

Agreed.

rw

[markw]

If, like me you choose to not run an active preamp in your setup and/or use long IC runs, then the answer is yes. You'll roll off the top.

The top of what? Remember, we're tawkin' subwoofers here.

Agreed.

Thanks, I'm just funnin' ya.

[Fergymunster]

You call this angry?? Go to the cable forum, this is Disneyland in comparison to that. Besides nobody is angry at anyone, at least not from this end

I'm a member of Audio Asylum as well.I recently acquired a passion for music and no doubt learned alot from both forums.Maybe I'm just tired of the constant bickering back in forth about this that and the other thing and in the end nobody learns little if anything.For me I find it important to beleive about 1/4 of what people are saying and after the debate is over is when I sort it all out and see what the truth is relevant to me .That's all.P.S.1 year experience.

[Hyfi]

You opened a thread on a confrontational subject with a confrontational statement. That's fine, but don't try to lie about your intentions. You simply wantes to start a shiite storm.

No. If I wanted to argue or start a flame war, I would have posted something subjective on the Cable Forum where the sharks are lurking.

No, sub specific cables are a nice way to make money. Any decent interconnect will do fine. It's just that some have different standards for "decent".

If you re-read my original post, I said: "Last week they showed up but I realy didn't need them anymore so I decided to swap out the Sub cable for one of the Sidewinders."

Then I said the following at the end: " Obviously, one does not need to use a Sub only cable as we are led to believe."

I'm still waiting for "real" evidence that subwoofer cables of similar construction sound different.

I said I swapped an AudioQuest Sidewinder IC for a Monster Bass 100 SUB CABLE. I have a hard time comparing those two cables in construction or similarity but for the fact that they had similar looking little plugs on the ends.

But, if you are comfortable in your beliefs, have at it. It's your money.

This is a free country and everyone is free to believe what they want, even though it flies in the face of sciences, logic, and reality as long as others can believe the opposite.

I'm sure you have absolutly no faith or spiritual beliefs in your life as they are intangable and there is no hard evidence either way. I guess it would even be hard to believe in yourself at times.

Of course, those who know better just snicker...

Now who came here to start the Shiite Storm? Duh'Oh!!

[markw]

No. If I wanted to argue or start a flame war, I would have posted something subjective on the Cable Forum where the sharks are lurking.

You think I buy that lame excuse? You knew you were initiating a cable post.

The fact that several of the posters gave you the benefit of a doubt and commented on the subwoofer, not the cable, should have given you a clue but no, you kept dragging the subject back to cables. ...and yet in the post above you said that you purposely avoided the cable forum. Why is that?

You are a sneaky one, ain't cha?

I'm sure you have absolutly no faith or spiritual beliefs in your life as they are intangable and there is no hard evidence either way. I guess it would even be hard to believe in yourself at times.

Actually, I do believe in religion but not to tee point that I won't let medical science take over when needed. Blind faith is foolish and science can answer a lot more than some here give it credit for.

Now who came here to start the Shiite Storm? Duh'Oh!!

Well, now that you mention it, wasn't it you that threw out this one-liner? Did you rally think nobody else was listening?

OMG Don't let the Red & Black Brigade hear you say that!

So, since you invited articipation from people who don't share your views, but do share a caustic bent, here I am!

Boy, you are a disingenuous one.

If this is any indication of your honesty or observational abilities, I really, doubt anything you have to say.

[jocko_nc]

I have two subs... Should I have special left-hand and right-hand cables? What if I accidently ran the left side with a right-hand cable? Will right-hand electrons pass through a left hand cable as well?

I'm worried about pions, muons, and all those little quarks. They come in right-hand and left-hand flavors, too. Some even have "personalities". If I measure the state of a particle passing through my cable, do I affect it. How am I supposed to get this right? Aaaarrrgggh!!!!!

jocko

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm a member of Audio Asylum as well.I recently acquired a passion for music and no doubt learned alot from both forums.Maybe I'm just tired of the constant bickering back in forth about this that and the other thing and in the end nobody learns little if anything.For me I find it important to beleive about 1/4 of what people are saying and after the debate is over is when I sort it all out and see what the truth is relevant to me .That's all.P.S.1 year experience.

There are alot of people I really respect that believe they can hear differences in wire. I have been known to hear differences in sighted listening test, but I could not repeat these differences during DBT testing. I am also not in agreement that you have to sell the farm to get wire that performs well.

If one person could come up with one credible DBT that supports the theory that all wire sounds different, I would jump into this camp without reservations.

[E-Stat]

Thanks, I'm just funnin' ya.

Thought so. You do understand paralleling capacitance.

rw

[markw]

Thought so. You do understand paralleling capacitance.

rw

..caps in parallel decreases capacitance. Putting them in series decreases it. ...although when I larned this stuff, they were called condensors.

edit: parallel increases, series decreases. opposite of resistance I thoughy I typoed here.

[E-Stat]

..caps in parallel decreases capacitance.

You add them

rw