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  1. #1
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    High End Receiver dilema ?

    Hey guys,

    I'm pretty new at this stuff and I'm building a home theater. I have the Jamo E770 in the front with E750s in back (yes this is 4 floorstandings), one forward and one rear center channel, and 2 subs (6.1 setup). Using the Optoma H78DC3 with Da-Lite screen. Large room.

    I was planning on using the Integra DTR-7.4. However, I began reading about the Marantz and the Denons and onkyos.......and this lead to confusion.

    I want to spend about $1500.....what do you guys suggest ??

    Thanks
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-30-2005 at 08:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda
    Hey guys,

    I'm pretty new at this stuff and I'm building a home theater. I have the Jamo E770 in the front with E750s in back (yes this is 4 floorstandings), one forward and one rear center channel, and 2 subs (6.1 setup). Using the Optoma H78DC3 with Da-Lite screen. Large room.

    I was planning on using the Integra DTR-7.4. However, I began reading about the Marantz and the Denons and onkyos.......and this lead to confusion.

    I want to spend about $1500.....what do you guys suggest ??

    Thanks
    Many to choose from, and most of them are very good. I like my Yamaha a lot. It does it all. Plenty of others will like Denon, Onkyo, HK etc. I picked the Yammie because I liked how it sounded and how few returns they get on them. You can get the RX-V2500 for about $1000 at authorized dealers (I like getting a warranty). The RX-V4600 is about $1800 and has a better amp. But I don't think you need it. Your speakers are 6 ohm right? Should be no problem.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    For $1500 I wouldn't waste time with a receiver, you can do far far far better for the money with seperates. I would suggest this preamp:
    http://outlawaudio.com/products/990.html

    Which leaves you $400 for a 5 channel amp which is very doable if you keep an eye on Ebay and Audiogon. I'm seeing nice amps from B&K, Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, etc in that price range. This combo will absolutely kill any receiver in the price range.

  4. #4
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    I'm with N.Abstentia - if you can swing it, go the power amp route.
    If space is a concern, I'd look at either Arcam, Rotel, or NAD in that order. These receivers should be in your price range and do deliver quality and power on par with separates.

  5. #5
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    I disagree with the above recommendations on going seperates....

    Yoda didn't mention trying to squeeze every bit of performance. He said he needs a AV receiver to control his 6.1 system.

    For $1500, your forced to buy used or lower-end seperates which probably will not possess video up conversion, advanced bass management, etc....all of which a $1500 receiver will do. Plus, he gets a warranty and the overall convenience a AVR provides.

    Stick with your plan and go get a new receiver (with warranty), any of the brands mentioned will provide a nice hub for your HT. I'll throw another brand to consider....Sherwood Newcastle. The Newcastle line is Sherwood's upper brand and will do your HT right.

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Tarheel's right, might be a bit too forward thinking on our part to dive into separates. I'm just looking at bucks we're talking about, and thinking in 2, 3, 4 years, one might be in a better position to upgrade and probably still have all the control/processing features he needs.
    Nothing wrong with getting a good avr and then adding amps as needed (if needed)...which is why I recommend Adcom, Rotel, Nad, etc...I find them the most user friendly, best sounding, and among the highest quality receivers in that price range. For most people, that's all they'd need.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    For $1500 I wouldn't waste time with a receiver, you can do far far far better for the money with seperates. I would suggest this preamp:
    http://outlawaudio.com/products/990.html

    Which leaves you $400 for a 5 channel amp which is very doable if you keep an eye on Ebay and Audiogon. I'm seeing nice amps from B&K, Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, etc in that price range. This combo will absolutely kill any receiver in the price range.
    Hmmm... receivers vs. seperates... I keep thinking about this. For my needs (mostly music with a little movies) I'm thinking about the Arcam AVR300 at the moment. But for $2,000...? Idunno. I guess there are multiple options.

  8. #8
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonW
    Hmmm... receivers vs. seperates... I keep thinking about this. For my needs (mostly music with a little movies) I'm thinking about the Arcam AVR300 at the moment. But for $2,000...? Idunno. I guess there are multiple options.
    Here is a good combo of seperates if you want to go that way. These may be available cheeper on Ebay or something if you don't care about warranties.

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...er%20Amplifier
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Here is a good combo of seperates if you want to go that way. These may be available cheeper on Ebay or something if you don't care about warranties.

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...er%20Amplifier
    Thanks. I haven't read much about Adcom, so I should do some looking around. About 50% more than the Arcam receiver. Although part of that expense is an amp, which you can always use ven when the pre pro is obsolete.

    Maybe I need to compare the sound of the Arcam (not using the internal amp) to some dedicated pre pros. And see if there's an appreciable difference. If not, I can always just get the Arcam receiver and add amps later, as needed.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonW
    Hmmm... receivers vs. seperates... I keep thinking about this. For my needs (mostly music with a little movies) I'm thinking about the Arcam AVR300 at the moment. But for $2,000...? Idunno. I guess there are multiple options.
    And thus Jon it turns into that inevitable "at which point do you consider separates?" as flagship receivers from the likes of, say, Denon or Onkyo, can easily be 3 to 4,000 dollars and so we must wonder......go with a flagship receiver THAT expensive or start looking into separates?

  11. #11
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    First of all.....THANKS YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR INPUT. You guys are great.

    I do want the warranty...just my preference. I think separates are not an option, especially since I live in AL. Dealers have always been a problem down here.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    I disagree with the above recommendations on going seperates....

    Yoda didn't mention trying to squeeze every bit of performance. He said he needs a AV receiver to control his 6.1 system.

    For $1500, your forced to buy used or lower-end seperates which probably will not possess video up conversion, advanced bass management, etc....all of which a $1500 receiver will do. Plus, he gets a warranty and the overall convenience a AVR provides.
    Wait a minute now, the 7.1 preamp I suggested does indeed have video up conversion, advanced bass mangagement ALONG with other features that an AVR might not have, such as balanced outputs, DVI switching, better DAC's, and more than 2 component video inputs. This $1100 preamp trounces the cheap preamp that is found in a $1500 AVR and it does indeed have a full warranty. A 6 channel amp can be had for less than $500 that will bury any AVR amp. True at that price you have to go used with no warranty...but it's an AMP. It just works.


    I just don't understand how someone with $1500 would not get seperates. It boggles the mind. It's a no brainer, get the seperates. If you don't, you'll kick yourself in the ass every time you turn on your all-in-one receiver.

  13. #13
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    Wait a minute now, the 7.1 preamp I suggested does indeed have video up conversion, advanced bass mangagement ALONG with other features that an AVR might not have, such as balanced outputs, DVI switching, better DAC's, and more than 2 component video inputs. This $1100 preamp trounces the cheap preamp that is found in a $1500 AVR and it does indeed have a full warranty. A 6 channel amp can be had for less than $500 that will bury any AVR amp. True at that price you have to go used with no warranty...but it's an AMP. It just works.


    I just don't understand how someone with $1500 would not get seperates. It boggles the mind. It's a no brainer, get the seperates. If you don't, you'll kick yourself in the ass every time you turn on your all-in-one receiver.
    Great site N.Ab. Is the outlaw better than the Adcom? I see that they have a few combo packages also.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  14. #14
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    Wait a minute now, the 7.1 preamp I suggested does indeed have video up conversion, advanced bass mangagement ALONG with other features that an AVR might not have, such as balanced outputs, DVI switching, better DAC's, and more than 2 component video inputs. This $1100 preamp trounces the cheap preamp that is found in a $1500 AVR and it does indeed have a full warranty. A 6 channel amp can be had for less than $500 that will bury any AVR amp. True at that price you have to go used with no warranty...but it's an AMP. It just works.


    I just don't understand how someone with $1500 would not get seperates. It boggles the mind. It's a no brainer, get the seperates. If you don't, you'll kick yourself in the ass every time you turn on your all-in-one receiver.
    I have to agree with you on this one. I went the seperates way recently and paid a total of $750 total for 5 VERY high quality stereo amps off ebay. 3 of the 5 were only a year old, and the other two had never been used. I am also looking VERY seriously at the Outlaw pre-pro. Seperates are definately the way to go at this price point.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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    Oppo BDP-103D
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    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
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    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
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  15. #15
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I have to agree with you on this one. I went the seperates way recently and paid a total of $750 total for 5 VERY high quality stereo amps off ebay. 3 of the 5 were only a year old, and the other two had never been used. I am also looking VERY seriously at the Outlaw pre-pro. Seperates are definately the way to go at this price point.
    Sir TT,
    I have to disagree with ya on this one. Yoda said he's new at this HT stuff so for people to advise him to go directly into separates is bit ahead of his situation/experience.

    I think most on this board admit most spearates sound superior to AVRs, but AVRs do offer bonuses in the $1500 price range.

    Lower end separates usually offer less options, occupy more real estate, create more heat (if using multiple amps), force u to buy more cables and the need for more outlets.

    You may hear a difference going from an AVR to separates, but i would bet most newbies cannot.

    Anyway, i'm just trying to make a point. Heck, i love my $1200 (list) HK reciever for its convienence and performance, but i admit i want to go separates. When i research separates in that price range, I just don't see the advantage....and that may be my problem...i need to hear some good separates outside of a dealer.

  16. #16
    Audio Hobbyist Since 1969 Glen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda
    Hey guys,

    I'm pretty new at this stuff and I'm building a home theater. I have the Jamo E770 in the front with E750s in back (yes this is 4 floorstandings), one forward and one rear center channel, and 2 subs (6.1 setup). Using the Optoma H78DC3 with Da-Lite screen. Large room.

    I was planning on using the Integra DTR-7.4. However, I began reading about the Marantz and the Denons and onkyos.......and this lead to confusion.

    I want to spend about $1500.....what do you guys suggest ??

    Thanks
    If you can swing $2,000, it will get you nice, no-nonsense separates from Outlaw Audio.
    http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    Sir TT,
    I have to disagree with ya on this one. Yoda said he's new at this HT stuff so for people to advise him to go directly into separates is bit ahead of his situation/experience.

    I think most on this board admit most spearates sound superior to AVRs, but AVRs do offer bonuses in the $1500 price range.

    Lower end separates usually offer less options, occupy more real estate, create more heat (if using multiple amps), force u to buy more cables and the need for more outlets.

    You may hear a difference going from an AVR to separates, but i would bet most newbies cannot.

    Anyway, i'm just trying to make a point. Heck, i love my $1200 (list) HK reciever for its convienence and performance, but i admit i want to go separates. When i research separates in that price range, I just don't see the advantage....and that may be my problem...i need to hear some good separates outside of a dealer.
    Tarheel, I am with N. Abstentia and Sir TT on this one.
    The Outlaw 990 is not a "lower end seperates" as you point out. I could not tell the difference between the Outlaw 950 and my Pioneer 2012K as a prepro but the 990 is definitely richer sounding.
    Why are you so concerned with warranty? I believe all Outlaw products carry a five year warranty and a generous 30 day return policy.
    Also the Outlaw offers very good DVI and Component video switching and Bass Management for external sources which a $1500 I believe will not and I may be wrong there.
    All in all, receivers will simply not deliver the power it requires for HT and even music sounds well refined and richer in tonal quality through external amplification.
    Wooch, Sir TT, etal are a part of a Northern California Conspiracy!
    Smokey, admit you are using your receiver as a prepro!!

  18. #18
    fergot... whasa XLR3?
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    I'm amused... nobody suggests buying a hi end AVR on ebay. I bought a barely used Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi for $1850 on ebay, then registered it at Pioneer, full warantee. I am not dissapointed, but my requirements are not quite so essoteric, and space is a consideration. It has plenty of power, sounds great, has loads of features, and a backlit rechargable remote that works.

    I've been a sound engineer for 30 years and fiddle, optimize, and patch stuff for a living, big big big stuff, where everything is "separate". I'm just not all that interested in goofing with my rig when I get home, I just want it to work acceptably.

    Some ppl just don't care about separates for a HiFi and I'm one of em!

  19. #19
    fergot... whasa XLR3?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazdamanic
    ...The more features, gizmos, chips, power supplies you cram in a box the more you degrade the sound signal as I am sure everyone here already knows.
    That's ludicrous, ever see a digital mixer?

  20. #20
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixadude
    I'm amused... nobody suggests buying a hi end AVR on ebay. I bought a barely used Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi for $1850 on ebay, then registered it at Pioneer, full warantee. I am not dissapointed, but my requirements are not quite so essoteric, and space is a consideration. It has plenty of power, sounds great, has loads of features, and a backlit rechargable remote that works.

    I've been a sound engineer for 30 years and fiddle, optimize, and patch stuff for a living, big big big stuff, where everything is "separate". I'm just not all that interested in goofing with my rig when I get home, I just want it to work acceptably.

    Some ppl just don't care about separates for a HiFi and I'm one of em!
    I am in the same boat as yourself. I have been mixing and recording soundtracks for a little longer than 20 years, and my very nature makes me patch, fiddle, configure, and route. I guess that is why my system looks so complicated, but is so well integrated.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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  21. #21
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    N. Absentia is right, if you have $1500 to spare, it dosen't make sense sonically to go with a receiver unless you have a space constraint. The more features, gizmos, chips, power supplies you cram in a box the more you degrade the sound signal as I am sure everyone here already knows.

  22. #22
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixadude
    That's ludicrous, ever see a digital mixer?
    Digital mixers do not include power amps, and are usually alot larger than a receiver.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  23. #23
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    Sir TT,
    I have to disagree with ya on this one. Yoda said he's new at this HT stuff so for people to advise him to go directly into separates is bit ahead of his situation/experience.
    Tarheel, just how much experience is required before you move on to seperates. I never knew that going after quality requires experience. Setting up seperates is really no more difficult than setting up a receiver.

    think most on this board admit most spearates sound superior to AVRs, but AVRs do offer bonuses in the $1500 price range.
    What bonuses would those be? I can't really see a bonus in stuffing all audio processing and amplification into one box, as this is a bit of a compromise for convience sake.

    Lower end separates usually offer less options, occupy more real estate, create more heat (if using multiple amps), force u to buy more cables and the need for more outlets.
    First, the Outlaw is not a lower end product. Read the spec's, there is nothing low end about it from the DAC's, to the chips used for bass management and upsampling. . Secondly, my seperate amps generate no more heat than my receiver did when it drove all of my speakers. Good quality cables can be had for a VERY reasonable price, and the performance upgrade is well worth the price. As far as outlets, well out of one outlet in my house, I am powering all of my components via two power conditioners, with twelve plugs a piece.

    You may hear a difference going from an AVR to separates, but i would bet most newbies cannot.
    You would be very surprised what people can hear, newbie or not.

    Anyway, i'm just trying to make a point. Heck, i love my $1200 (list) HK reciever for its convienence and performance, but i admit i want to go separates. When i research separates in that price range, I just don't see the advantage....and that may be my problem...i need to hear some good separates outside of a dealer.

    Consider this Tarheel, I paid $750 total for over 10 channels of amplification, and $700 for my receiver which is now my pre-pro. 3 of those stereo amps are 150 WPC from 20-20khz, another is 165 WPC bridged to 540, and the last one is 120 WPC. All of them are VERY high quality used amps. Can you receiver that costs about $250 less than my investment boast a simular performance? I do not think so.

    It is not all that complicated to setup seperates, certainly not as complex as you are making it bro.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  24. #24
    fergot... whasa XLR3?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Digital mixers do not include power amps, and are usually alot larger than a receiver.
    True enough, but they do include processing that would take several 8' racks and a ton of wire to accomplish on an analog desk that's usually much bigger physically, and they do it cheaper with far lower noise and better coherancy.

    Sure, if I had a theatre and unlimited space and resources, I'd have separates and a patch bay, but I'd also be using real sound equipment. I guess I just don't get this HiFi wizzin contest stuff.

  25. #25
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixadude
    True enough, but they do include processing that would take several 8' racks and a ton of wire to accomplish on an analog desk that's usually much bigger physically, and they do it cheaper with far lower noise and better coherancy.
    We don't disagree here.

    Sure, if I had a theatre and unlimited space and resources, I'd have separates and a patch bay, but I'd also be using real sound equipment. I guess I just don't get this HiFi wizzin contest stuff.
    You do not need alot of space or money to do seperates. You could either get a pre-pro and a five, six, or seven channel amp, or you could buy a pre-pro and three stereo power amps. Neither of these two options take up tremendous amounts of space. You should know that!!
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

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