High Def ramblings and questions

[toenail]

I've recently embarked on a mission to educate myself about HD so that I can make a decision about which television to purchase. What I'm finding is that the Retail people use the worst presentation possible to try and sell product and that they are largely under-educated about HD. I'm also finding that there are many unanswered questions or conflicting arguments about format, best technology per given application etc.

1) Is HD really worth the expense? Every HD tv I've seen has left me underwhelmed with it's picture quality, or lack thereof. Many have great color or contrast but none seem to have the "definition" that I'm expecting to see. I'm continually amazed at the amount of visible distortion, pixelization, motion break up etc found on ALL of the HD set I've viewed. This includes anything at CC, BB, Tweeter, high end showrooms etc and most other random places I've encountered it (bars etc). I tells me that either the HD experience isn't all that great OR that all of the places I've viewed it at have poor signal, zoomed screen, lack of power supply etc. I find it hard to believe that all, say 75, of the sets I've viewed are suffering from feed problems which leaves me wondering if it's really worth all the hype or just that easy to screw up.

2) Which technology? All the research I've done for the segment I'm interested in ($2-2.5K about 42-46") points me toward DLP as opposed to LCD or CRT RPTV, or LCD/Plasma direct view. I watch al ot of fast motion and a lot of 4:3 with sidebars and that seems to exlude the other technologies pretty quickly. What if I'm prone to rainbow effect? HD2+ seems the clear choice of chip so at least that narrows it down.

3) Which native resolution? All of the HD sets I've considered are either 1080i or 720p. If I buy 1080i, every time I watch 720p (fox espn etc) I'm seeing a converted signal which degrades PQ. Conversely, if I go with a 720p set every time I watch 1080i (cbs dischd etc) I'm also getting a converted signal which suffers the same fate. I'm not really concerned about 480i SD input being converted, as it can't get any worse than it already is. I just have a hard time paying a few grand for a given format, only to discover that 1/2 the time I'm watching HD it's a manipulated signal with some distortion added. To add to the confusion, in two different showrooms I found that the best looking PQ came from an EDTV (480p plasma I believe) that was fed a signal the salesperson stated was the same 1080i all the other sets were getting. What gives? Of course, he also stated that only 1080i is HD, and that 720p and lower are EDTV. I had thought 1080i AND 720p were both considered HD.

4) Built in tuner or no? At least one salesperson told me that the best possible PQ I could achieve would come from OTA and rabbit ears, as opposed to cable company etc. I had thought that digital was digital, meaning no room for error. Its either there or it isn't. Then came the scenario about multi signal broadcast on same frequency (or something like that) which degrades signal quality considerably. I thought I understood this to be more affected by cable and less affected by OTA signal. Anyone know? Could just be a ploy to sell the more expensive TV with built in tuner and a fancy $100 amplified antenna?

5) Inputs, HDMI vs component? Is HDMI really better PQ or just convenience of added audio? I'm not sure I would use this as criteria for my search unless there were a PQ difference.

That's all for now. More to come later I'm sure. Thanks for listening.

[hershon]

The difference in an HD widescreen picture and a regular TV picture is night and day, like the difference between Bill Gates and Joe Millionaire (OK maybe not that much but you get my drift hopefully). As I said in another thread and which I think 95% of the people on this forum have said before, if you go to a place like Best Buy, Circuit City, Good Guys (to a lesser extreme) just for advice/guidance, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Further off, these morons who run these places, more times than not have their widescreen HD TV's for example showing 4:3 non 16:9 widescreen regular nonwidescreen programs, so chances are you won't be seduced by a widescreen TV there, at least I wasn't. Go instead to some place(s) that specializes in high end/big screen HD TV's (and audio stuff) like Ken Craine's in LA. Stores like these have salesmen who know their stuff and have all the TV sets set up properly and running (so they'll all have some kind of widescreen HD TV Show running on their screens) not like the knuckleheads at the aforementioned type places that probably have non HD shows at4:3 being shown on their 16:9 widescreen TV's etc. Anyway, from there put together a list of which are your favorites, do some more research and then see where you can buy it the cheapest (which might be Best Nuy, Circuit City, etc.) Whatever you do, don't buy a TV without seeing it first. As for me I'm in love with my Mitsubishi 48" WS-48315 HD Ready Rear Projection TV which I got for $1600 with free shipping/installation. Oh yes, plan to get, an extended warranty for your TV for a few hundred dollars, and 2 sets of very good component audio cables, one to connect your HD TV to your receiver or DVR receiver which your cable company will supply for all of $5-$10 or so a month (I'm not sure what the deal is with Dishes) & another set for your DVD player. You can get a good set of monster component cables on Ebay As a Buy it Now item for about half of what it will cost you retail, off the top of my head. My cable company offers a package of HD programs that include ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, HB) & Showtime (if you have those already) Discovery & a couple of others. For some more bucks you can get HD NEt which includes ESPN & more stuff.

If you're planning to watch HD TV from your Cable company then you would be throwing your money away buying a tuner for it as the Cable Company supplies you one for free (or if not free close to it). I'm not sure about Dish TV's.

You're overanalyzing your worries. Most HD Shows as far as I knw are broadcast in 1081.
I know you won't get a Rainbow effect on Mitsubishi and other name brands. I'd voice any questions/concerns to salesmen at the higher end stores as they don't want to give you bad advice knowing that you'll return the set, really! Whatever you do, don't mess with the picture controls which I'm assuming are factory set. Get a pro to do that if you feel you must.

If my budget was unlimited I'd buy a huge plasma HD Ready TV but as I said you can get a good big screen HD TV for under $1700 & a good HD TV 30" or under for $700.

I've recently embarked on a mission to educate myself about HD so that I can make a decision about which television to purchase. What I'm finding is that the Retail people use the worst presentation possible to try and sell product and that they are largely under-educated about HD. I'm also finding that there are many unanswered questions or conflicting arguments about format, best technology per given application etc.

1) Is HD really worth the expense? Every HD tv I've seen has left me underwhelmed with it's picture quality, or lack thereof. Many have great color or contrast but none seem to have the "definition" that I'm expecting to see. I'm continually amazed at the amount of visible distortion, pixelization, motion break up etc found on ALL of the HD set I've viewed. This includes anything at CC, BB, Tweeter, high end showrooms etc and most other random places I've encountered it (bars etc). I tells me that either the HD experience isn't all that great OR that all of the places I've viewed it at have poor signal, zoomed screen, lack of power supply etc. I find it hard to believe that all, say 75, of the sets I've viewed are suffering from feed problems which leaves me wondering if it's really worth all the hype or just that easy to screw up.

2) Which technology? All the research I've done for the segment I'm interested in ($2-2.5K about 42-46") points me toward DLP as opposed to LCD or CRT RPTV, or LCD/Plasma direct view. I watch al ot of fast motion and a lot of 4:3 with sidebars and that seems to exlude the other technologies pretty quickly. What if I'm prone to rainbow effect? HD2+ seems the clear choice of chip so at least that narrows it down.

3) Which native resolution? All of the HD sets I've considered are either 1080i or 720p. If I buy 1080i, every time I watch 720p (fox espn etc) I'm seeing a converted signal which degrades PQ. Conversely, if I go with a 720p set every time I watch 1080i (cbs dischd etc) I'm also getting a converted signal which suffers the same fate. I'm not really concerned about 480i SD input being converted, as it can't get any worse than it already is. I just have a hard time paying a few grand for a given format, only to discover that 1/2 the time I'm watching HD it's a manipulated signal with some distortion added. To add to the confusion, in two different showrooms I found that the best looking PQ came from an EDTV (480p plasma I believe) that was fed a signal the salesperson stated was the same 1080i all the other sets were getting. What gives? Of course, he also stated that only 1080i is HD, and that 720p and lower are EDTV. I had thought 1080i AND 720p were both considered HD.

4) Built in tuner or no? At least one salesperson told me that the best possible PQ I could achieve would come from OTA and rabbit ears, as opposed to cable company etc. I had thought that digital was digital, meaning no room for error. Its either there or it isn't. Then came the scenario about multi signal broadcast on same frequency (or something like that) which degrades signal quality considerably. I thought I understood this to be more affected by cable and less affected by OTA signal. Anyone know? Could just be a ploy to sell the more expensive TV with built in tuner and a fancy $100 amplified antenna?

5) Inputs, HDMI vs component? Is HDMI really better PQ or just convenience of added audio? I'm not sure I would use this as criteria for my search unless there were a PQ difference.

That's all for now. More to come later I'm sure. Thanks for listening.

[Mike That Likes Music]

To sort of kinda answer part of one of your myriad questions, I think you're correct that 720p and over as well as 1080i and over are both HDTV. That's what everything I've read or heard says anyhoo.
And I absolutely agree with Hershon that you should seek out a store who's employees know what they're talking about and selling instead of just trying to unload what they have before the next truck rolls in. I can definitely speak from my experiences shopping for audio equipment that you will get loads more useful information out of a 10 minute conversation with an attentive, knowledgeable small-store employee than an entire day with a nationwide store employee. Also, most serious small shops will have proper viewing/listening rooms. I've always gotten better customer service in the small shops too. Yes, they're almost always more expensive than the chains, but I personally think the tradeoffs are worth it.
Mike

[hershon]

That was the best summation ever on these type of stores (Best Buy et. all). Maybe they can put that on as a "warning" to this site. My surpising experience in buying audio as opposed to TV from High End places has been a pretty bad one though, believe it or not. Maybe my cases are the exception to the rule. The same Ken Crane's store that I said was fantastic for HD TV, has a pretty cruddy high end audio set up, as did the various other places I checked out in LA. At Ken Cranes and the other places I went to, speaking just from my experience, maybe other people have had different ones, is the entire set ups to hear music in these places in regards to the receivers/CD/DVD/Universal players & speakers control settings were lousy & I'm not referring to the room acoustics. I'd bring a test CD to play and sure I'd hear the CD on different set ups but God knows what the bass, treble, DSP settings etc were on the receivers- the bottom line is nothing I heard at any of these high end stores was impressive & I do not attribute that to the acoustics. These sales people would just assume that their stereo customer was a totally naive little lamb who'd buy what the salesman said to buy instead of buying something because they liked it. IE, my Denon 3801 receiver which I lucked out on and got on sale used online, sounds at home 1000 times better than any of the Denons, Yamaha, NAD or Rotell receivers I heard at these stores & I totally attribute that to the stores control settings for these products not the actual product.

To sort of kinda answer part of one of your myriad questions, I think you're correct that 720p and over as well as 1080i and over are both HDTV. That's what everything I've read or heard says anyhoo.
And I absolutely agree with Hershon that you should seek out a store who's employees know what they're talking about and selling instead of just trying to unload what they have before the next truck rolls in. I can definitely speak from my experiences shopping for audio equipment that you will get loads more useful information out of a 10 minute conversation with an attentive, knowledgeable small-store employee than an entire day with a nationwide store employee. Also, most serious small shops will have proper viewing/listening rooms. I've always gotten better customer service in the small shops too. Yes, they're almost always more expensive than the chains, but I personally think the tradeoffs are worth it.
Mike

[kexodusc]

Hey, Toenail..
I recently received a basic Toshiba 51" HDTV, RPTV, I got the HD box, PVR, the whole 9 yards, and I'm loving it...after years of being so focused on audio, I can't believe I ignored the video...now everything looks as big and as nice as it sounds. Not as many channels as I'd like, but that's okay. If you're into XBOX at all, it's a must.
Whether you like it or not, your next tv will probably be HD anyway...it's early on in the game, and there's only upside to the potential (unless the advertisers and cable companies anti-piracy HD into the grave, but that's another issue).

Each technology has it's advantages over the others, tastes and esthetics play a huge role in determining which set "looks" better more than the actual picture quality...no different than anything else we buy.

It doesn't have to cost a lot of money either...I say go for it...(I'm great at spending other people's money)

[hershon]

How are you getting your signal from Cable TV or Dish or Au Natural? I take it your PVR is HD. Does you Dish or Cable company supply it? While I'm happy with my Time Wanter DVR I'm still waiting for these people to give me their updated version whoch should allow me to get 5.1 sound & my video copies. These morons, could have programmed the current HD DVR I have Scientific Atlanta HD 8000 but noooooooooooooooooo. All I've been getting from them is the usual Casey Stengle "Who's Your daddy" doubletalk.

Hey, Toenail..
I recently received a basic Toshiba 51" HDTV, RPTV, I got the HD box, PVR, the whole 9 yards, and I'm loving it...after years of being so focused on audio, I can't believe I ignored the video...now everything looks as big and as nice as it sounds. Not as many channels as I'd like, but that's okay. If you're into XBOX at all, it's a must.
Whether you like it or not, your next tv will probably be HD anyway...it's early on in the game, and there's only upside to the potential (unless the advertisers and cable companies anti-piracy HD into the grave, but that's another issue).

Each technology has it's advantages over the others, tastes and esthetics play a huge role in determining which set "looks" better more than the actual picture quality...no different than anything else we buy.

It doesn't have to cost a lot of money either...I say go for it...(I'm great at spending other people's money)

[edtyct]

Hi toenail, want some discussion?

1. HD is worth the expense. Once you've seen it under the right conditions (which, incidentally, aren't so stringent that PQ becomes an elusive goal), you don't want to go back. Occasionally, one of the big chain stores will give you a hint about how good it can be, but you're often at the mercy of uninformed salespeople and badly set up technology. It's a shame that some people have to take HD on faith (and so not take it at all), because almost every person who's ever seen HD correctly wants to get it--immediately.

2. The horror stories about smeared motion, screen doors, and rainbows are blown way out of proportion. None of the microdisplay technologies are perfect, but all of them are eminently watchable (given a reputable manufacturer). JVC's DiLP may be the best of the lot in some respects, if not for the unreliability. The HD+2 chip is an improvement over its predecessor (and HD+3), but LCD has made big strides as well. It actually outsells DLP by a wide margin. CRT's PQ, however, is still the standard by which all others are measured (particularly when it comes to black level), but the one caveat that does have some urgency (though not as much as some would have you believe) is uneven burn-in. If you don't think that you can protect a CRT or plasma from it by filling the screen as much as possible and keeping brightness/contrast at reasonable levels, then DLP, LCD, and LCOS might well be your best bets.

3. Native resolution doesn't really matter, that much. For most fixed pixels, it'll be at, or close to, 720 vertical and 1280 horizontal (though the full complement of 1920x1080p has begun to crop up on LCDs for scaling, if not for display). Too many plasmas are 1024x720 for my liking, though they can look awfully good, too. CRTs are strictly 1080i-based vertically, and anywhere from 800 to about 1300 horizontally, though most can scale to, if not actually delineate, 720 these days. A resolution of 1080i is the most popular among broadcasters; only ESPN, FOX, and ABC are at 720p. I defy you in a blindfold test to tell me whether the HD that you're watching on any display originated as either one; that's how good basic, bread and butter scaling is for HD programming. The point is that a display will flip your skirt or leave you cold not necessarily because of its technology but because of execution on its own terms, its price, or certain relative values. By the way, some 480p plasmas have absolutely stunning pictures, particularly the Panasonics. They will have an advantage with 480p programming or with DVDs, since no scaling need be involved. Since color rendition, grey scale, screen distance, and other considerations contribute to a monitor's quality, the fact that HD scaled to an EDTV monitor can look better under some circumstances than HD on a true HD monitor should come as no surprise. On a level playing field, however, it's no contest. HD done right trumps everything else.

4. To my mind, an ATSC tuner for off-air programming can be an asset for local stations on HD. Cable and satellite providers have limited bandwidth, and because part of their business is based on the number of channels that they can offer to consumers, the compression necessary to fit them all can be severe, causing periodic breakup and pixelization. The problem is hardly a deal breaker, but it is real. If you can get off-air programming easily, and you like it enough to watch it, it might look better than its counterpart along the wire. Digital error is mainly a bandwidth artifact. Off-air, you'll get a good solid signal above a certain threshold, and below it nothing at all. Anyone who's experienced rainfade from a satellite feed knows what I mean. Under ordinary conditions, a signal of 70 on a DirecTV tuner will be just as good as a signal of 100. But add a little rain, or other atmospheric interference, and the lower strength signal will disappear.

5. HDMI and component can look nearly the same, or one can look noticeably better than the other. Theoretically, on microdisplays HDMI should have the advantage, since it avoids D/A and A/D conversions that can soften images, but poor execution can negate it. HDMI also allows upscaling within a DVD player, which can remove that burden from the microdisplay and create a visibly better picture. For example, upscaling a 480p DVD to 720p in the player itself can result in a slight improvement in sharpness, which is measurable. CRTs are largely immune to this benefit, but it still may be worth a try. Whatever you buy these days will have HDMI or DVI, so you probably won't have to add it specially to your list of priorities.

Oh, by the way, both 1080i and 720p belong to the HD standard. Horizontal resolution isn't as important, since the eye is more sensitive to vertical.

Ed

[toenail]

Hi toenail, want some discussion?

1. HD is worth the expense. Once you've seen it under the right conditions (which, incidentally, aren't so stringent that PQ becomes an elusive goal), you don't want to go back. Occasionally, one of the big chain stores will give you a hint about how good it can be, but you're often at the mercy of uninformed salespeople and badly set up technology. It's a shame that some people have to take HD on faith (and so not take it at all), because almost every person who's ever seen HD correctly wants to get it--immediately.

***** I credit sloppy display practices by the big box reatilers for hindering HD tv sales.

2. The horror stories about smeared motion, screen doors, and rainbows are blown way out of proportion. None of the microdisplay technologies are perfect, but all of them are eminently watchable (given a reputable manufacturer). JVC's DiLP may be the best of the lot in some respects, if not for the unreliability. The HD+2 chip is an improvement over its predecessor (and HD+3), but LCD has made big strides as well. It actually outsells DLP by a wide margin. CRT's PQ, however, is still the standard by which all others are measured (particularly when it comes to black level), but the one caveat that does have some urgency (though not as much as some would have you believe) is uneven burn-in. If you don't think that you can protect a CRT or plasma from it by filling the screen as much as possible and keeping brightness/contrast at reasonable levels, then DLP, LCD, and LCOS might well be your best bets.


***** That's just the thing, they're not horror stories, I've actually witnessed this disortion on every set I've viewed. The burn in would be a real issue for me as I will do 70-80% viewing in 4:3 mode without stretch. This is what points me toward the dlp systems.

3. Native resolution doesn't really matter, that much. For most fixed pixels, it'll be at, or close to, 720 vertical and 1280 horizontal (though the full complement of 1920x1080p has begun to crop up on LCDs for scaling, if not for display). Too many plasmas are 1024x720 for my liking, though they can look awfully good, too. CRTs are strictly 1080i-based vertically, and anywhere from 800 to about 1300 horizontally, though most can scale to, if not actually delineate, 720 these days. A resolution of 1080i is the most popular among broadcasters; only ESPN, FOX, and ABC are at 720p. I defy you in a blindfold test to tell me whether the HD that you're watching on any display originated as either one; that's how good basic, bread and butter scaling is for HD programming. The point is that a display will flip your skirt or leave you cold not necessarily because of its technology but because of execution on its own terms, its price, or certain relative values. By the way, some 480p plasmas have absolutely stunning pictures, particularly the Panasonics. They will have an advantage with 480p programming or with DVDs, since no scaling need be involved. Since color rendition, grey scale, screen distance, and other considerations contribute to a monitor's quality, the fact that HD scaled to an EDTV monitor can look better under some circumstances than HD on a true HD monitor should come as no surprise. On a level playing field, however, it's no contest. HD done right trumps everything else.

***** Again, credit the poor execution at retail level for the apparent discrepancy here. The EDTV looked far better than any of the 1080i/720p displays. It sounds like this is a case of proper set-up for one and poor set-up for all the others. This also confirm my thought that the least amount of scaling involved, the better the PQ.


4. To my mind, an ATSC tuner for off-air programming can be an asset for local stations on HD. Cable and satellite providers have limited bandwidth, and because part of their business is based on the number of channels that they can offer to consumers, the compression necessary to fit them all can be severe, causing periodic breakup and pixelization. The problem is hardly a deal breaker, but it is real. If you can get off-air programming easily, and you like it enough to watch it, it might look better than its counterpart along the wire. Digital error is mainly a bandwidth artifact. Off-air, you'll get a good solid signal above a certain threshold, and below it nothing at all. Anyone who's experienced rainfade from a satellite feed knows what I mean. Under ordinary conditions, a signal of 70 on a DirecTV tuner will be just as good as a signal of 100. But add a little rain, or other atmospheric interference, and the lower strength signal will disappear.

***** In my local market (Providence, RI) there are about 7 OTA HD channels that should come in clear. I can get duplication from the Boston, MA market for some of them as well. If the signal is cleaner on OTA then an onboard tuner would be best for me. Also, Cox Cable doesn't have rights to Fox HD in Providence, but Fox OTA from Boston market does come in down here (so I'm told).

5. HDMI and component can look nearly the same, or one can look noticeably better than the other. Theoretically, on microdisplays HDMI should have the advantage, since it avoids D/A and A/D conversions that can soften images, but poor execution can negate it. HDMI also allows upscaling within a DVD player, which can remove that burden from the microdisplay and create a visibly better picture. For example, upscaling a 480p DVD to 720p in the player itself can result in a slight improvement in sharpness, which is measurable. CRTs are largely immune to this benefit, but it still may be worth a try. Whatever you buy these days will have HDMI or DVI, so you probably won't have to add it specially to your list of priorities.

***** My DVD player is only capable of 480i/480p so that won't be an issue. TV will still have to scale.

Oh, by the way, both 1080i and 720p belong to the HD standard. Horizontal resolution isn't as important, since the eye is more sensitive to vertical.

Ed

See inserts above.

[edtyct]

Toenail, I can confirm that you are in a good location (unless you're in a bunker), being just up the road from you in Massachusetts mid-way between Providence and Boston. I forget just how many hi def stations are available from Needham, Boston, Dedham, et al., but people keep telling me that it's more than I could ever shake a stick at. Way back in the Dark Ages when only a few off-air channels existed (hi def only sometimes at night, 480p otherwise), I couldn't get any of them because of a combination brick-wall effect and very low signal, even with a full-tilt Winegard and an amplifier on my roof. Now, it's a veritable bonanza, though I long since dropped out of the sweepstakes. You might be able to grab all of them with a low-profile indoor or window antenna or, if you have an attic, something more capable and directional. Good luck and have fun.

Also, I promise that I'm not questioning your credibility, but I feel compelled to ask: Are you sure that flaws that you've seen on these sets on the showroom floors are motion smudges, screendoors, and rainbows? The rainbows I don't doubt at all, nor the burn-in effects. If you see them, they're unmistakeable. But motion smearing is largely a thing of the past, under most circumstances. So are screendoors. Remember that the picture elements on almost any display will become visible if the set is overdriven or right next to you. I can easily see the picture elements on plasmas, LCDs, whatever, even on a correctly adjusted monitor, if I'm well within the suggested viewing range. Even though the fill factor for LCDs isn't as good as that for LCoS or DLP, under ordinary viewing conditions, it isn't an issue. Nor have I seen motion artifacts on LCDs, either rear-projection or flat-panel, for a long time.

One of the advantages touted for 720p over 1080i is smoothness of motion, since 1080i is subject to deinterlacing, which can create incongruities. Have you ever noticed the difference? There are golden eyes out there, and largely abstract truths that manufacturers are happy to use as selling points, but, again, under ordinary circumstances, these peripheral conditions are not everyday experiences. Even CRTs can have visible flaws. Witness, for example, the infamous scrolling white bar on the vaunted Sony direct views, which are otherwise outstanding, For a long time, when real disparity existed between DVD players at various price points, people were satisfied with lesser ones even though better but more expensive alternatives existed. No one suffered horribly from them. I submit that the differences between different formats is not as obvious as the scare tactics, expert testimony, and advertising hype would suggest. They certainly make some difference, but just how much is up to the educated consumer.

You like what you like, and I'm not trying to suggest that anyone should change an opinion for rhetorical reasons--only that we not jump to conclusions about the reasons for the poor PQ that we see on units in stores and elsewhere.

Ed

[toenail]

Toenail, I can confirm that you are in a good location (unless you're in a bunker), being just up the road from you in Massachusetts mid-way between Providence and Boston. I forget just how many hi def stations are available from Needham, Boston, Dedham, et al., but people keep telling me that it's more than I could ever shake a stick at. Way back in the Dark Ages when only a few off-air channels existed (hi def only sometimes at night, 480p otherwise), I couldn't get any of them because of a combination brick-wall effect and very low signal, even with a full-tilt Winegard and an amplifier on my roof. Now, it's a veritable bonanza, though I long since dropped out of the sweepstakes. You might be able to grab all of them with a low-profile indoor or window antenna or, if you have an attic, something more capable and directional. Good luck and have fun.

***** I'm glad that at least I've got this going for me.

Also, I promise that I'm not questioning your credibility, but I feel compelled to ask: Are you sure that flaws that you've seen on these sets on the showroom floors are motion smudges, screendoors, and rainbows? The rainbows I don't doubt at all, nor the burn-in effects. If you see them, they're unmistakeable. But motion smearing is largely a thing of the past, under most circumstances. So are screendoors. Remember that the picture elements on almost any display will become visible if the set is overdriven or right next to you. I can easily see the picture elements on plasmas, LCDs, whatever, even on a correctly adjusted monitor, if I'm well within the suggested viewing range. Even though the fill factor for LCDs isn't as good as that for LCoS or DLP, under ordinary viewing conditions, it isn't an issue. Nor have I seen motion artifacts on LCDs, either rear-projection or flat-panel, for a long time.

***** I've actually not seen a rainbow, but ocassional random flashes of colored light from the periphery of my sight line that disappear when you try to look at them directly. Not sure of the technical terminology for the very visible distortion I've witnessed but I'll try to elaborate. On large mostly evenly colored surfaces that are supposed to have subtle detail, when the camera pans you can see a form of visible break-up which subsides as the pan stops. I see this on objects that move before a still camera as well. There is also a "hairy" quality to the picture that reminds me of SD on my current set when the signal is driven with a 25db amplifier. It too is most noticed on large somewhat evenly colored surfaces. I can only describe the overall quality of the picture as being noisy (hairy texture) and broken up during motion events. Perhaps a better way to word it is this. When digital cameras were in they're infancy I remember seeing a print from a low megapixel camera and thinking, why would anyone pay good money for that? You could actually see blocks of different color that were meant to represent different shades of the same color. I see this all the time when viewing just about any HD screen with any HD signal source. I don't see it on my Toshiba 32"crt direct view with DVD, but do see it on most digital channels. It is particularly bad on VH1 mega hits and VH1country. It's almost not present on Speed channel. I'm not sure if my expectation is too high or I'm just incredibly unlucky at finding a properly set up system to view. Fow what it's worth I today visited a high end AV shop and viewed a MSRP $17,000 plasma with 1080i signal and saw the same distortion. Every other aspect of this TV was breathtaking but the distortion killed it for me. I compared it to a low end $3k 50" dlp set he was testing for someone and found the same thing, thought this set had none of the vividness of the plasma. This all with viewing distances within suggested tolerance. At Walmart however, the 32" sanyo HD 4:3 crt showed no sign of this distortion. Granted it's a tiny crt but the picture quality was outstanding and there was no hair, no break-up.

One of the advantages touted for 720p over 1080i is smoothness of motion, since 1080i is subject to deinterlacing, which can create incongruities. Have you ever noticed the difference? There are golden eyes out there, and largely abstract truths that manufacturers are happy to use as selling points, but, again, under ordinary circumstances, these peripheral conditions are not everyday experiences. Even CRTs can have visible flaws. Witness, for example, the infamous scrolling white bar on the vaunted Sony direct views, which are otherwise outstanding, For a long time, when real disparity existed between DVD players at various price points, people were satisfied with lesser ones even though better but more expensive alternatives existed. No one suffered horribly from them. I submit that the differences between different formats is not as obvious as the scare tactics, expert testimony, and advertising hype would suggest. They certainly make some difference, but just how much is up to the educated consumer.

You like what you like, and I'm not trying to suggest that anyone should change an opinion for rhetorical reasons--only that we not jump to conclusions about the reasons for the poor PQ that we see on units in stores and elsewhere.

Ed

Agreed that no conclusions should be drawn from my experiences. It's one of the reasons that I've not given up. I was disappointed with the outcome of my visit to the high end shop though. I've never had the opportunity to A/B a progressive signal and an interlaced equivalent so I've no idea whether I'm a golden eye, fussy, or unlucky about what I've seen so far.

[edtyct]

[QUOTE=toenail]On large mostly evenly colored surfaces that are supposed to have subtle detail, when the camera pans you can see a form of visible break-up which subsides as the pan stops. I see this on objects that move before a still camera as well. There is also a "hairy" quality to the picture that reminds me of SD on my current set when the signal is driven with a 25db amplifier. It too is most noticed on large somewhat evenly colored surfaces. I can only describe the overall quality of the picture as being noisy (hairy texture) and broken up during motion events. Perhaps a better way to word it is this. When digital cameras were in they're infancy I remember seeing a print from a low megapixel camera and thinking, why would anyone pay good money for that? You could actually see blocks of different color that were meant to represent different shades of the same color. I see this all the time when viewing just about any HD screen with any HD signal source. I don't see it on my Toshiba 32"crt direct view with DVD, but do see it on most digital channels. It is particularly bad on VH1 mega hits and VH1country. It's almost not present on Speed channel. I'm not sure if my expectation is too high or I'm just incredibly unlucky at finding a properly set up system to view. Fow what it's worth I today visited a high end AV shop and viewed a MSRP $17,000 plasma with 1080i signal and saw the same distortion. Every other aspect of this TV was breathtaking but the distortion killed it for me. I compared it to a low end $3k 50" dlp set he was testing for someone and found the same thing, thought this set had none of the vividness of the plasma. This all with viewing distances within suggested tolerance. At Walmart however, the 32" sanyo HD 4:3 crt showed no sign of this distortion. Granted it's a tiny crt but the picture quality was outstanding and there was no hair, no break-up.
[QUOTE]

The motion smears on LCDs are like trails behind moving objects, like the motion streaks behind cartoon characters that signify speed, except that in this case, they mean that the pixels are unable to refresh themselves fast enough before something new happens. Some of the blocking in the color patches could be MPEG compression artifacts, or, in some cases, false contouring, which is still in evidence on plasmas and other microdisplays that can't resolve subtle gradations of dark colors. Bringing down the color information and black/white parameters can often minimize the bristling effect. Also, when brightness, contrast, and/or sharpness are set too high, or when a set's own proprietary schemes to enhance edging are put into play (like SVM or one of the sports or cartoon picture modes), picture elements can become visibly exaggerated/distorted. Mediocre deinterlacing/ scaling/zooming can also result in visibly distorted lines on moving objects, depending as it does on incorrigibly scanty information to fill in the blanks (many people prefer a dedicated video processor to the one embedded in their display). You are most definitely right that a small screen can hide a multitude of sins, and CRTs are not prone to the kind of false contouring that I mentioned above (though under certain conditions their scan lines can show up). As screen sizes increase, the flaws, both the inevitable ones and the elective ones, become more manifest--all the more reason to buy the right display, set it up correctly, and sit far enough away from it to flatter the sense of picture uniformity.

Ed