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  1. #1
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    Help with new cd player?

    I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    If you have the connectivity needed for SACD then definitely go for it. But get a unit that also plays DVD-A.

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    Get a Universal or DVD player with DVD-A

    Quote Originally Posted by madmax1
    I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.
    Again, you get what you pay for. You want to take a shortcut and buy low, it'll cost you more in the end. I recommend you either get a good DVD player that at least has DVD-A (I just bought a Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player that you can get for $250 new with shipping online-it retails for $350, and the CD sound as well as DVD sound & picture are fantastic) or get a good Universal Player that will play DVD-A, SACD & DVD's. For me, I'm not really interested in DVD-A's or SACD, so just the DVD-A option suffices for me. Make sure whatever you do has a DAC of 192/24 bits.

    PS

    Make sure you have a decent receiver.

  4. #4
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    What is DVD-A and SCAD?

    I'm running a yamaha 2400 receiver. What is the diff between the two formats? Plus i was in best buy on Sunday and can't find any SCAD or DVD-A??

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    Then Maybe That's Not Important

    Quote Originally Posted by madmax1
    I'm running a yamaha 2400 receiver. What is the diff between the two formats? Plus i was in best buy on Sunday and can't find any SCAD or DVD-A??
    I'm far from an expert but there aren't that many DVD-As or SACD's out there and there are more SACDs then DVD-A's & quite a few of them I bought were mediocore. Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor. However, as a general rule, yes there are exceptions, usually DVD players with at least DVD-A technology are more technologically advanced then those that aren't the same as receivers with 7 .1 sound as opposed to 5.1 sound, even if you're not going to use this. Again, make sure whatever you get has a DAC of 192/24.
    Last edited by hershon; 04-11-2005 at 08:53 AM.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hershon
    I'm far from an expert but there aren't that many DVD-A or SACD out there and there are more SACDs then DVD-A's & quite a few of them I bought were mediocore. Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor. However, as a general rules, yes there are exceptions, usually DVD players with at least DVD-A technology are more technologically advanced then those that aren't the same as receivers with 7 .1 sound as opposed to 5.1 sound, even if you're not going to use this. Again, make sure whatever you get has a DAC of 192/24.
    There are thousands of SACD's and DVD A's on the market. Both use higher sampling rates to get more resolution out of the recording. Both use multi channel surround as well by using the analogue outputs from the DVD/SACD player going into the multi channel inputs on your 2400. Both can be used in 2 channel as well to get a higher resolution as well. Unless youre into investing in another format it might be best to stick with regular cd.

    Since all cd players at this price pretty much sound the same. Integra makes a great cd changer for 199 that has 3 year warranty and great build quality. http://www.integrahometheater.com/

    If youre willing to step up to 300 you can start looking at the Marantz CD5400, NAD C521BEE, or the Cambridge Audio 540C.



    Hershon your not even using the 24/192 capability on your DVD player since your using the digital output. So why does he need this ? Especially if he sticks with DVD CD. The statement regarding the 24 bit/192 khz is false if your not using DVD-A. Besides having this feature is no big deal. Even cheap units have this. It has nothing to do with your unit being more advanced.

    On another note SACD uses DSD and not 24/192 DAC's. So this format would be using a different DAC.

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    All I know is the Harmon Kardon 31 DVD Player Has 192/24

    In reference to anamorphic, all I know is the Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player I have produces the best CD (as well as DVD) sound I've ever heard- what that is attributed to I can't technologically define- in fact nothing personal & I'm speaking in generalities so if I missed someone that was an oversight, no one on this board or at any high end store I've been too or on any other board, has yet to specifically spell out other than a DAC what can make one DVD/CD/Universal player sound better than another if everything else is equal (i.e. same receiver, cables, CD, settings). I'm assuming by process of elimination its the DAC (I connect and prefer optic fiber on a digital connection) but I can't say that with certainty. As far as the other brands like the Marantz CD540 when I connected it (both digitally and by analogue to my old JVC receiver) it suckked (maybe it would sound better on my Denon 3801, I don't know). I also tried a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C which I think is one step higher than the CD player you recommended, and there wasn't much noticeable difference in sound between the $350 listed Harmon Kardon & the $529 listed Cambridge Audio, at least not enough difference to merit me keeping both. This might be personal taste, I'm not disputing that. As to DVD-A's and SACD's, based on my personal experience which is different than anamorphic, when I go into Tower Records there is not a big selection of either of these though there's about twice as many SACD's to DVD-A's there. Perhaps thousands are available online but not in stores.



    Quote Originally Posted by anamorphic96
    There are thousands of SACD's and DVD A's on the market. Both use higher sampling rates to get more resolution out of the recording. Both use multi channel surround as well by using the analogue outputs from the DVD/SACD player going into the multi channel inputs on your 2400. Both can be used in 2 channel as well to get a higher resolution as well. Unless youre into investing in another format it might be best to stick with regular cd.

    Since all cd players at this price pretty much sound the same. Integra makes a great cd changer for 199 that has 3 year warranty and great build quality. http://www.integrahometheater.com/

    If youre willing to step up to 300 you can start looking at the Marantz CD5400, NAD C521BEE, or the Cambridge Audio 540C.



    Hershon your not even using the 24/192 capability on your DVD player since your using the digital output. So why does he need this ? Especially if he sticks with DVD CD. The statement regarding the 24 bit/192 khz is false if your not using DVD-A. Besides having this feature is no big deal. Even cheap units have this. It has nothing to do with your unit being more advanced.

    On another note SACD uses DSD and not 24/192 DAC's. So this format would be using a different DAC.

  8. #8
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Hershon "I'm far from an expert " Is the most honest thing i've ever seen you post.
    And the "Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor" Just makes me want to kill some one!!! People like you are one of the big reasons why this great high rez sound is going to die a slow death. You DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT IT, yet give advice to others about how it is just cd sound through 5 channels. AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!
    I give up!
    Oh, and that post of yours about the " does blocking the heat vents on my Receiver matter" . I think you just post this crap because you have nothing better to do. That post....even a person who REALLY doesn't know anything about hometheater,would not ask a moronic question like that.
    Reading your garbage is really starting to piss me off.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=hershon]In reference to anamorphic, all I know is the Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player I have produces the best CD (as well as DVD) sound I've ever heard- what that is attributed to I can't technologically define- in fact nothing personal & I'm speaking in generalities so if I missed someone that was an oversight, no one on this board or at any high end store I've been too or on any other board, has yet to specifically spell out other than a DAC what can make one DVD/CD/Universal player sound better than another if everything else is equal (i.e. same receiver, cables, CD, settings). I'm assuming by process of elimination its the DAC (I connect and prefer optic fiber on a digital connection) QUOTE]


    Here's where the problem with your advice lies...you say "get this player because it's DAC sound better than the other 2 players I tried!" But in the very next sentence you say you prefer the digital connection which BYPASSES THE DAC. If you prefer the digital connection then you DON'T like the sound of the DAC in the player, you like the sound of the DAC in the reciever and ALL players will sound identical using this method!

  10. #10
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    Leaf Were You Bitten By a Learning Disabled Pit Bull on PCP with Rabies?

    I shouldn't even bother to address you as you are so low on the food chain you're not worthy of even contempt. Genious (which in your case means you have a 2020 IQ), I never gave any misleading info about your precious DVD-A's, SACD's- get a life boy or better yet a job & I'm not talking Richard Simmonds here, sorry. I just said for me personally I'm not overall impressed with DVD-A's or SACD's at this point and if someone else isn't, it shouldn't be a factor in buying decisions. Again, snorklehead, to quote the great Mickey Rivers, what part of this do you not understand? If you like these discs, good for you, I don't care. Let the other people make up their own decisions for themselves. Its called free will a concept you probably never heard of. So if I don't love them, despite the fact that you say I should love them, tough. Excuse me for not knowing the technology behind this. As far as my question on the vents, again I appologize for not asking your permission, I've done things like that previously and it didn't affect anything, but this time my equipment is more expensive so I'll ask. If you think the answer is so obvious, then have you or anyone here on this board, actually messed up their system from first hand experience by doing this? I'm betting no one will say this but I will take their advice anyway. This is my last comment addressing you as I'm not into swatting mosquetos.

    Quote Originally Posted by LEAFS264
    Hershon "I'm far from an expert " Is the most honest thing i've ever seen you post.
    And the "Here's the thing, if you're not planning to get these (basically CD's with 5 distinct channels plus) then that shouldn't be a factor" Just makes me want to kill some one!!! People like you are one of the big reasons why this great high rez sound is going to die a slow death. You DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT IT, yet give advice to others about how it is just cd sound through 5 channels. AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!
    I give up!
    Oh, and that post of yours about the " does blocking the heat vents on my Receiver matter" . I think you just post this crap because you have nothing better to do. That post....even a person who REALLY doesn't know anything about hometheater,would not ask a moronic question like that.
    Reading your garbage is really starting to piss me off.

  11. #11
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    Here's where the problem with your advice lies...you say "get this player because it's DAC sound better than the other 2 players I tried!" But in the very next sentence you say you prefer the digital connection which BYPASSES THE DAC. If you prefer the digital connection then you DON'T like the sound of the DAC in the player, you like the sound of the DAC in the reciever and ALL players will sound identical using this method![/QUOTE]

    Again, by process of elimination I'm trying to determine a characteristic in one player that I don't think off the top of my head was in the other like 192/24 DAC &by process of elimination
    I'm attibuting the difference to that. It might not be right, but if you have an alternative or better alternative for defining specific differences due to specific parts, please in all seriousness, let me know.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    Yes that is true this HK has that DAC capability but you are not using it. If you have the player connected using the DVD-A outputs the 24/192 dac will kick in. But only with DVD-A encoded discs. Any other format you use such as DTS and Dolby Digital are being done by the Denon.

    The differences are not going to be huge between players either. Especially since you are using two high quality units. But ther is no way to ACCURATELY tell the diffrencs between the players unless you compare them the same way. Using the analogue connections on both will tell you the real difference. But only this way. Since optical connections bypasses everything.

    Diffrences between players -

    100 to 200
    Not many diffrences in sound since the price point compromises things. However you can still get a good player at this price.

    300 to 500
    This is where things change and I feel differences can be noticed in build and sound quality. This is where you see the better DAC's. Yes they are the major difference but they are not the only thing you pay for. As stated in a previous post it comes down to alot of things.(power supply design,chassis, transport, capacitors, opamps). These things as a combined whole make the difference in players and this is what you are paying for with upmarket players. Along with the name to an extent.

    Keep in mind though you can have two DAC's that have the same specs and still be from the same company. Think of Lexus and Toyota or Acura and Honda. Both do the same thing and can have the same spec but one is more refined than the other.

  13. #13
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    Maybe the HK31 DVD player is applicable to what you said as its a $350 listed DVD player albeit I paid $250 for it new. All I know is when I experimently connected it via 2 analogue Diamonback $125 cables the CD sound wasn't half as good as the optically connected sound & all the settings were correct. When I connected 6 interconnects to play DVD-A, the sound was excellent. I didn't say I wouldn't buy or play DVD-A's, just that on the whole I'm somewhat dissapointed in them at present. When I temporarily connected the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C CD player $529 list, by the 2 diamondback $125 cables, the sound of the Cambridge Audio CD player was either no better than the Harmon Kardon DVD player connected optically or slightly worse, depending on your taste. This was witnessed by someone else on this board.

    When I connected the HK31 DVD player to my then JVC DVD receiver, the DVD sound was significantly better on the HK then the built in DVD player. The CD sound however was better on the built in JVC than hearing it from the HK through the JVC receiver.

    When I initially got a Denon 2105 receiver and a Denon DVD player (not sure the model number other than it didn't play DVD-A), the CD sound sucked.

    What does this all mean? I wish I knew. To me the best way to pick a CD or Universal or DVD player is to check out all the Amazon.com reviews on it and any other online reviews and take an educated guess and then see what the actual product's website says. Other then getting a total unequivocal endorsement from someone on this board whose opinion you respect or hearing it at a friend's hourse, alot of this is a crapshoot.


    Quote Originally Posted by anamorphic96
    Yes that is true this HK has that DAC capability but you are not using it. If you have the player connected using the DVD-A outputs the 24/192 dac will kick in. But only with DVD-A encoded discs. Any other format you use such as DTS and Dolby Digital are being done by the Denon.

    The differences are not going to be huge between players either. Especially since you are using two high quality units. But ther is no way to ACCURATELY tell the diffrencs between the players unless you compare them the same way. Using the analogue connections on both will tell you the real difference. But only this way. Since optical connections bypasses everything.

    Diffrences between players -

    100 to 200
    Not many diffrences in sound since the price point compromises things. However you can still get a good player at this price.

    300 to 500
    This is where things change and I feel differences can be noticed in build and sound quality. This is where you see the better DAC's. Yes they are the major difference but they are not the only thing you pay for. As stated in a previous post it comes down to alot of things.(power supply design,chassis, transport, capacitors, opamps). These things as a combined whole make the difference in players and this is what you are paying for with upmarket players. Along with the name to an extent.

    Keep in mind though you can have two DAC's that have the same specs and still be from the same company. Think of Lexus and Toyota or Acura and Honda. Both do the same thing and can have the same spec but one is more refined than the other.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    Hershon have you connected the HK with the analogue cable and compared it to the Cambridge with the same connection ?

    Do not use the optical connection on either unit and tell me what you think of the two.

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    I didn't connect the HK by analogue to make the CD sound comparison because the analogue sound by its own on the HK sucked so what was the point? When I listened to the same CD digitally through opticable cable on the HK the sound was great. So I therefore compared the digital HK sound to the analogue Cambridge Audio Sound (as an aside Cambridge Audio sounded better via analogue connections then an optical connection). In other words I compared the way a CD sounded best on both players irregardless of whether it was digital or analogue connection. To clarify further, sound of HK playing a CD digitally is better or the same than playing Cambridge Audio by analogie. The sound of HK playing a CD by analogue is worse then playing the Cambridge Audio Cd player either digitally or by analogue. The sound of Hk playing a CD digitially is better than playing a Cambridge Audio digitally, All my settings were correct as well.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    I didn't connect the HK by analogue to make the CD sound comparison because the analogue sound by its own on the HK sucked so what was the point?

    Hershon this is the entire point. To do equal comparisons. The optical connection uses the Denon receiver not the HK. You are hearing the Denon.

    I compared the way a CD sounded best on both players irregardless of whether it was digital or analogue connection

    This is the wrong way to compare players. Ask anyone here. Its not a proper comparison since its the DAC's in the Denon not the HK that are giving you the sound your hearing.


    The sound of HK playing a CD by analogue is worse then playing the Cambridge Audio Cd player either digitally or by analogue.

    This statement tells me the HK is not good with 2 cahnnel audio.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular anamorphic96's Avatar
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    Hershon,

    Do you understand the difference between a digital connection and an analogue connection ?

    I ask because im not sure if you understand the difference. Im not putting you down just want to clarify if you dont know.

  18. #18
    AR "Wisdom of Yoda"Member LEAFS264's Avatar
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    Hey Hershon...."If you like these discs, good for you, I don't care. Let the other people make up their own decisions for themselves. Its called free will a concept you probably never heard of. " Nice quote....


    I want him to make up his own mind. Your the jackass telling him...." it's just cd sound in 5 channels". When in fact it is so much more. You are a joke Hershon. A waste of my very time. I don't give a rats ass if you don't like sacd or dvd-audio,THATS NOT THE POINT LITTLE MAN. The point is you and your absolute god awefull advice. How can you offer advice on a tech you don't know anything about!!! Please tell me HOW.
    As for your Receiver heat vent post.......well, where to start. What happens when your receiver can't cool it self,because the heat vent is blocked......IT SHUTS IT SELF DOWN. That is bad.
    Hershon. I will be watching all your posts from now on. If you continue to give advice,with out a clue,i'll be there to correct you. If I can't or don't know,i'm sure some of the big boys here like Kex and woochifer will step up and put you in your place.
    A guy like you, should be asking as many questions as possible as it is very clear that you knowledge of home theater is at best.... grade school level.
    "WHICH PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND"
    Madmax1....i'm very sorry i had to use your post to do this.

    "I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

    You should only invest in a sacd if your interested in that format. Do you know anyone with a set up that has sacd or dvd-audio that you could demo first? It is a great format.But the trouble is the marketing sucks. Sony has given up,in order to center on the new high def dvds coming out. There are lots of great titles to listen to,and also some bad ones.
    My advice is, Check out a local shop and listen to one of there set ups. If you feel that it is the same as cd quality,that just pick up a cd player. But if you are as blown away as i was, it is worth getting the system.
    But remember. You can't make a bad choice.So don't worry about it!!

    Jay

  19. #19
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEAFS264
    Hey Hershon...."If you like these discs, good for you, I don't care. Let the other people make up their own decisions for themselves. Its called free will a concept you probably never heard of. " Nice quote....


    I want him to make up his own mind. Your the jackass telling him...." it's just cd sound in 5 channels". When in fact it is so much more. You are a joke Hershon. A waste of my very time. I don't give a rats ass if you don't like sacd or dvd-audio,THATS NOT THE POINT LITTLE MAN. The point is you and your absolute god awefull advice. How can you offer advice on a tech you don't know anything about!!! Please tell me HOW.
    As for your Receiver heat vent post.......well, where to start. What happens when your receiver can't cool it self,because the heat vent is blocked......IT SHUTS IT SELF DOWN. That is bad.
    Hershon. I will be watching all your posts from now on. If you continue to give advice,with out a clue,i'll be there to correct you. If I can't or don't know,i'm sure some of the big boys here like Kex and woochifer will step up and put you in your place.
    A guy like you, should be asking as many questions as possible as it is very clear that you knowledge of home theater is at best.... grade school level.
    "WHICH PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND"
    Madmax1....i'm very sorry i had to use your post to do this.

    "I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.

    You should only invest in a sacd if your interested in that format. Do you know anyone with a set up that has sacd or dvd-audio that you could demo first? It is a great format.But the trouble is the marketing sucks. Sony has given up,in order to center on the new high def dvds coming out. There are lots of great titles to listen to,and also some bad ones.
    My advice is, Check out a local shop and listen to one of there set ups. If you feel that it is the same as cd quality,that just pick up a cd player. But if you are as blown away as i was, it is worth getting the system.
    But remember. You can't make a bad choice.So don't worry about it!!

    Jay

    Why dont you just correct him. One thing i've learned on the A/V forums is some that know this stuff really thinks there sh$t dont stink. Correct somebody and they will learn. I dont know anyone thats born knowing. These forums are here to teach and learn.
    Look & Listen

  20. #20
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Get multi-channel if you have 5.1 setup,you'll like it. A Yamaha C750 at Good Guys is $299 and plays everythging and its a changer. You might try used. Hershon had a player for sale.
    Look & Listen

  21. #21
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    hershon, Leaf my be taking you to task but he's actually making a very accurate point. You are giving advice about things you don't understand. You made a long post where you essentially compared apples to oranges to bananas. Yes, I understand it is your opinion, but you're opinions don't have any validity AS ADVICE because you are comparing things that aren't generally comparable. I'm sure you're hearing differences, but they aren't meaningful for giving advice. It's clear you enjoy this hobby. You just need to take a time out and learn some of the technology first.

    Until then the jury is still out on who got bit by the learning disabled pit bull...

  22. #22
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax1
    I'm looking for a new cd player? Should i invest into SCAD? Only wanting to spend about$100 to $200. Sorry if this is the wrong area to put this post.
    Madmax, Looking at your setup, you likely can hear the difference of SACD. In addition to multichannel which is obvious, there is often a high-res stereo track that will be superior to CD for the critical listener. I don't have too many SACDs. Dark Side of the Moon is cool in multi-channel, but I don't get to sit still long enough to surround myself. Last I looked, (which was a while ago) there weren't too many low-cost options with both DVD-A and SACD. The two formats are still competing in the market place. My previous player was DVD-A, not SACD; I still have disks I can't listen to. I went with Philips DVD795SA (~$150). It doesn't play DVD-A. If I had to do it again I'd go for a more expensive player ($200-300). The sound is fine but the operation is cumbersome and it won't recognize SACD until I start another disk first (odd and annoying). SACD playback isn't that costly anymore compared to a player with out it. Find a player you like to operate and it will likely have SACD. I would stress operation ease. Once you start adding capabilities, you start adding menus and buttons. Having to navigate the remote to play SACD detracts from my experience. I think a well designed interface is worth a little more $.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Hershon I don't think you understand what the digital connection is doing. I say this because you keep saying how much better the DAC in that HK player sounds compared to the others you tried, but then turn right around and say that 'the sound of the HK really sucks on the analong connection'. Well that means the DAC sucks! The very DAC that you keep saying is so wonderful...then you say it sucks in the next sentence.

    Again, you cannot do a comparison of players if you're going to use the digital connection. The digital connection BYPASSES EVERYTHING IN THE PLAYER and leaves it up to the receiver to handle. Using digital, all players will sound the same because all you're doing it sending out a digital signal.

  24. #24
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    All I was trying to say is that my Harmon Kardon DVD player when combined with my Denon receiver gives me better sound then any other CD/DVD/Universal player I've ever tried and for the present I'm attributing that by process of elimination to the DAC albeit to get this great sound I am listening by an optical connection. If factors are at work such as osmosis why the HK gets this great sound and its not from the DAC fine, but obviously something is making the sound great. No one on this board or at any store has yet to identify what specific part of a CD/DVD/Universal player equipment will make the sound better than the next player other than a DAC. As I said, if your saying the DAC has nothing to do with optical connection sound fine, but something is giving the HK DVD player great optical sound.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    hershon, Leaf my be taking you to task but he's actually making a very accurate point. You are giving advice about things you don't understand. You made a long post where you essentially compared apples to oranges to bananas. Until then the jury is still out on who got bit by the learning disabled pit bull...
    Excuse me I condensed this. You're missing the whole point. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the dude's self righteous all knowing mocking tone addressing me not with actual criticism of me. There's a difference in the two.

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