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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert393
Let's all be kind, and patient, and enjoy the ride!~
Robert
OK, but I'm getting splinters from riding this fence for so long. And Sir TTT & LJ won't move over. Can I get some acoustic panels for my bottom?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert393
Wow.....heated debate. I don't think anbody would disagree that HD-DVD has gotten a really good jump start, and that BR has been disappoining thus far. However, BR has alot of Studio support, and certainly seems to be superior "on paper". Translating that into a superior product has been more difficult thusfar.
The whole 1080p hype from the BR camp seems to be just that........hype, as oppossed to reality at this point. Good article regarding the subject HERE.
Excerpt: "At this point we should address what can only be characterized as a hoax—the notion that Blu-ray must be technically superior to HD-DVD because the Samsung player outputs 1080p, whereas the Toshiba player is "only 1080i." One high-end home theater retailer told me last weekend that the reason you pay $1000 for the Blu-ray player is for the "higher resolution 1080p output." This is absolute baloney. If you encounter any retail sales rep feeding you this line, keep your wallet in your pocket and leave the store.
The truth is this: The Toshiba HD-DVD player outputs 1080i, and the Samsung Blu-ray player outputs both 1080i and 1080p. What they fail to mention is that it makes absolutely no difference which transmission format you use—feeding 1080i or 1080p into your projector or HDTV will give you the exact same picture. Why? Both disc formats encode film material in progressive scan 1080p at 24 frames per second. It does not matter whether you output this data in 1080i or 1080p since all 1080 lines of information on the disc are fed into your video display either way. The only difference is the order in which they are transmitted. If they are fed in progressive order (1080p), the video display will process them in that order. If they are fed in interlaced format (1080i), the video display simply reassembles them into their original progressive scan order. Either way all 1080 lines per frame that are on the disc make it into the projector or TV. The fact is, if you happen to have the Samsung Blu-ray player and a video display that takes both 1080i and 1080p, you can switch the player back and forth between 1080i and 1080p output and see absolutely no difference in the picture. So this notion that the Blu-ray player is worth more money due to 1080p output is nonsense."
This is going to be a fun battle, but 2 things are for-sure.
1) HD video is the future.
2) The consumer will be the ultimate winner of the format war.
Let's all be kind, and patient, and enjoy the ride!~
Robert
Rob,
Joe Kane has quite a different take on this. He warns not to listen to anyone who says that 1080I and 1080P are the same. He says the same problems that crop up on 480i signals will also pop up on 1080i signals. The same benefits 480P has over 480i will be the same benefits that 1080P offers over 1080i. He has quite an extensive write up on the subject in Widescreen review.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert393
This is going to be a fun battle, but 2 things are for-sure.
1) HD video is the future.
2) The consumer will be the ultimate winner of the format war.
Robert
That's exactly what they said when DVD-A and SACD came out, then followed by DualDisc. Yeah, that worked out real good for the consumer :frown5:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
That's exactly what they said when DVD-A and SACD came out, then followed by DualDisc. Yeah, that worked out real good for the consumer :frown5:
Not only that, but right now the consumer is the unpaid R&D for these formats. That's what I despise the most.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Rob,
Joe Kane has quite a different take on this. He warns not to listen to anyone who says that 1080I and 1080P are the same. He says the same problems that crop up on 480i signals will also pop up on 1080i signals. The same benefits 480P has over 480i will be the same benefits that 1080P offers over 1080i. He has quite an extensive write up on the subject in Widescreen review.
Sir TT,
JK's point is well taken. His crusade to eliminate 1080i from the face of the earth aims at ridding the video world once and for all of interlacing artifacts. The common notion that 1080i is visually tantamount to 1080p acts as a de-incentive to do so. However, material filmed or mastered at 1080p, 24 fps, and sent to a 1080p display as 1080i should be functionally equivalent to the same material sent as 1080p, 60 fps, since the display's processing of 1080i into 1080p should mimic any 1080p that came right out of the chute. However, this same 1080i signal fed into a 1080i display will not achieve the same performance, precisely because the interlacing factor remains; the 1080i display can show only 540 lines at a time, rather than 1080. This scenario speaks directly to JK's point about the inherent difference between 1080i and 1080p. A 1080p display's ability to re-assemble a 1080i signal to pristine 1080p on screen avoids the problem of how to mesh fields altogether. They mesh intrinsically, and progressively.
Ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edtyct
Sir TT,
JK's point is well taken. His crusade to eliminate 1080i from the face of the earth aims at ridding the video world once and for all of interlacing artifacts. The common notion that 1080i is visually tantamount to 1080p acts as a de-incentive to do so. However, material filmed or mastered at 1080p, 24 fps, and sent to a 1080p display as 1080i should be functionally equivalent to the same material sent as 1080p, 60 fps, since the display's processing of 1080i into 1080p should mimic any 1080p that came right out of the chute. However, this same 1080i signal fed into a 1080i display will not achieve the same performance, precisely because the interlacing factor remains; the 1080i display can show only 540 lines at a time, rather than 1080. This scenario speaks directly to JK's point about the inherent difference between 1080i and 1080p. A 1080p display's ability to re-assemble a 1080i signal to pristine 1080p on screen avoids the problem of how to mesh fields altogether. They mesh intrinsically, and progressively.
Ed
Very well said Ed. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. You made it much better. :-)
---Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
That's exactly what they said when DVD-A and SACD came out, then followed by DualDisc. Yeah, that worked out real good for the consumer :frown5:
Maybe your right, and HD Video will not succeed. 480p will be as good as anybody will ever want........YEAH RIGHT.....LOL!!
Keep trying to compare DVD-A and SACD to HD ............get real. At some point NA you are going to have to face the reality that HD "IS" here, it's glorious, and HD is FAR superior to 480p in every aspect. Just because you bought a projector that is incapable of reproducing HD (and by your own admission you think 480p is superior to HD (Post #10 & 14)) doesn't mean HD sucks or that HD is going away.
Robert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert393
Maybe your right, and HD Video will not succeed. 480p will be as good as anybody will ever want........YEAH RIGHT.....LOL!!
Keep trying to compare DVD-A and SACD to HD ............get real. At some point NA you are going to have to face the reality that HD "IS" here, it's glorious, and HD is FAR superior to 480p in every aspect.
Robert
Umm...if I were you I'd quit trying to start sh!t again, robbie. Remember the last time you got 'outed'!! LOL! Don't make me point to the picture of your 'male friend' on your website again :ihih:
I never compared DVD-A/SACD to HDTV, I merely said that they also said that those two were the next great coming for audio and that it didn't work out for them. I never said that about HDTV, you dolt, so quit trying to make something out of what is not there. How could you even confuse an audio format with a video format? Well...you ARE a car audio guy so I guess we can excuse you from our adult topics and cut you some slack.
I notice you only post here every three months or so, and every time you do you just try to start a fight. We can do without you. Now go get your shinebox.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
Umm...if I were you I'd quit trying to start sh!t again, robbie. Remember the last time you got 'outed'!! LOL! Don't make me point to the picture of your 'male friend' on your website again :ihih:
I think you got reprimanded for your previous personal attack, and the moderator put you on notice for your actions. If I were you I would not disrespect this site any furthur, nor it's moderators. Many have been banned for disrespecting the moderators warnings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
I never compared DVD-A/SACD to HDTV
I never said you did DS. But you did compare it to HD in your previous post. It wasn't somebody else that did that.........you did! Now don't start trying to change what you said.....lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
How could you even confuse an audio format with a video format?
I didn't. YOU DID. Wow, you really need to get out of the sun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
Well...you ARE a car audio guy so I guess we can excuse you from our adult topics and cut you some slack.
Thanks for the slack, but of the two corporations I own, the car audio business does quite well (finanicially speaking), and my store is 14-Time World Champion (IASCA & USACi combined). Many of the cars that leave my shop end up gracing the cover of CAR STEREO magazine, and we are internationally recognized as one of the top 3 single stores in the nation for our competition cars. I have 2 competition cars at my shop now. One was shipped to us from CA, and the owner has spent $140,000.00 with my store thus far. The other was shipped to my store from CO, and the owner has spent $90,000.00+ with my store thus far. Of course these are truly exceptional cars and do not represent the J6P customer that spends more than $2.5 M with me annually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
I notice you only post here every three months or so
I try to limit my post to topics I feel I can contibute, not to post simply to get my count up or say "I don't know much about HD & scaling and such".
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
and every time you do you just try to start a fight.
You made the original post here, and had NO INPUT until I POSTED, then you quoted me and started your crap AGAIN. It is obvious you lay and wait for me to post something then you quote me and try to evoke me into responding to your idiot comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
So, We can do without you. Now go get your shinebox.
NA climb out from under that rock you live under (from looking at your webpage I guess you ACTUALLY call it your house....lol). You can only wish me away........"oh ye of feable mind". I DO have a shinebox for you........take a look at the 4-walls surrounding you at dinner tonite....it's YOUR HOUSE.
NA, although I made an initial response to your quoting me, you bore me to no end. Therefore, with great respect for this site, fellow members, and moderators, I will decline to respond to you directly any furthur in this post. I prefer to keep the exchange informational and conducive to a learned experience.
So, make whatever helpless/hopeless attempt you may wish in order to build yourself up and sling mud here. I refuse to participate.........
So, have fun NA...........lol!!
Robert
Robert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert393
I think you got reprimanded for your previous personal attack, and the moderator put you on notice for your actions.
Robert
Ummm....huh? I think you have it backwards, there bub. YOU are the one who posted a picture of your male friend, not me. If that's your thing, fine. Just keep it to yourself. We don't want that pushed on us here at this board, and I don't think you can afford another strike.
What's the name of this so-called car audio shop? Where is it located? I don't think it exists.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert393
NA, although I made an initial response to your quoting me, you bore me to no end. Therefore, with great respect for this site, fellow members, and moderators, I will decline to respond to you directly any furthur. I refuse to participate.........
Robert
Well it's about time. Most of the members here have been calling for you to leave for quite some time, glad you finally got the hint.
Since there won't be any more responses from you, have fun with your imaginary car audio store and don't come back. See ya.
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One thing that still bothers me is the dearth of HD/1080 programming. There are a few Blu-Ray & HD movies out there, but nothing close to making me want to switch. And the 5-10 HD broadcasts out there hardly make it worth the expense either. I'm not an advocate of government eliminating standard programming, but at the very least it should make all major networks broadcast in both formats by a certain date. The point is, that all these better technologies, even if they've been around for years are just way too tentative. They are pussyfooting when they should be pushing much harder. It's almost as if they don't care enough.
It's what killed (or is killing, depending on your point of view) SACD & DVD-A. To deny that there are parallels between these two defunct formats and Blu-Ray/HD is just myopic. The only advantage that the latter two have is that there is a broadcast standard that is comparable (1080), and yet, they still look like they will wimper away. We can argue about the minor details, but what disaffected the public the most about SACD & DVD-A is:
- required a different player
- required more / better equipment (5.1 speakers)
- overly hampered & delayed by copy protection
- completely incompatible with each other's formats
- attacked by future emerging formats
- lack of selection
- no marketing
Now can anyone say that Blu-Ray and HD don't suffer from the same symtoms? And yes, we can say that it's still early, but that's what they were saying about SACD & DVD-A years after the realease of the formats all the way up until Sony decided to finally pull the plug on SACD.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
One thing that still bothers me is the dearth of HD/1080 programming. There are a few Blu-Ray & HD movies out there, but nothing close to making me want to switch. And the 5-10 HD broadcasts out there hardly make it worth the expense either. I'm not an advocate of government eliminating standard programming, but at the very least it should make all major networks broadcast in both formats by a certain date. The point is, that all these better technologies, even if they've been around for years are just way too tentative. They are pussyfooting when they should be pushing much harder. It's almost as if they don't care enough.
It's what killed (or is killing, depending on your point of view) SACD & DVD-A. To deny that there are parallels between these two defunct formats and Blu-Ray/HD is just myopic. The only advantage that the latter two have is that there is a broadcast standard that is comparable (1080), and yet, they still look like they will wimper away. We can argue about the minor details, but what disaffected the public the most about SACD & DVD-A is:
- required a different player
- required more / better equipment (5.1 speakers)
- overly hampered & delayed by copy protection
- completely incompatible with each other's formats
- attacked by future emerging formats
- lack of selection
- no marketing
Now can anyone say that Blu-Ray and HD don't suffer from the same symtoms? And yes, we can say that it's still early, but that's what they were saying about SACD & DVD-A years after the realease of the formats all the way up until Sony decided to finally pull the plug on SACD.
Good points, but no way around the fact that High Definition Video is here now, and is not going away. The longer the HD-DVD & BR format war last, the better the odds VOD-HD has of being the ultimate winner................going to be a fun ride!~
Robert
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I completely agree with nightflier, great post.
I'm still heavy on the consumers view of this stuff. This applies HDDVD/BluRay as well as SACD/DVD-A. Basically, it's this:
You have to convice Joe Walmart, who accounts for probably over 90% of the TV buying dollar, why it's better. (And yes, for the record I personally realize HD/BluRay looks better if you have the right equipment. Problem is with audio/videophiles like myself and the other folks here is that we represent a tiny fraction of the market.)
"Hey folks, this new format is wonderful! It has over 10 movies available, plus you get to buy $3500 worth of new equipment to make it work!"
It's a catch 22. People aren't going to accept it until it's widely available and cheap and works better than what they currently have that costs 1/10th as much.
It's not going to be widely available and cheap until all consumers accept it. So which is likely to happen first?
It's an uphill battle, that's for sure. What a shame. I hate to seem them going down the DVD-A/SACD route.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
One thing that still bothers me is the dearth of HD/1080 programming. There are a few Blu-Ray & HD movies out there, but nothing close to making me want to switch. And the 5-10 HD broadcasts out there hardly make it worth the expense either. I'm not an advocate of government eliminating standard programming, but at the very least it should make all major networks broadcast in both formats by a certain date. The point is, that all these better technologies, even if they've been around for years are just way too tentative. They are pussyfooting when they should be pushing much harder. It's almost as if they don't care enough.
It's what killed (or is killing, depending on your point of view) SACD & DVD-A. To deny that there are parallels between these two defunct formats and Blu-Ray/HD is just myopic. The only advantage that the latter two have is that there is a broadcast standard that is comparable (1080), and yet, they still look like they will wimper away. We can argue about the minor details, but what disaffected the public the most about SACD & DVD-A is:
- required a different player
- required more / better equipment (5.1 speakers)
- overly hampered & delayed by copy protection
- completely incompatible with each other's formats
- attacked by future emerging formats
- lack of selection
- no marketing
Now can anyone say that Blu-Ray and HD don't suffer from the same symtoms? And yes, we can say that it's still early, but that's what they were saying about SACD & DVD-A years after the realease of the formats all the way up until Sony decided to finally pull the plug on SACD.
Yes they require a different player, but that is not really going to stop someone that wants own leading edge technology. Remember, DVD required a different player, updated audio codecs, component inputs for televisions, new recievers, and 5.1 speakers, and if was the fastest adopted technology in history.
Neither Bluray nor HD DVD were delay were delayed by copy protection, though the DVD was.
They are definately incompatible, but one does offer advantages over the other. drseid mentions that HD DVD could add capacity. However the max capacity supported under the HD DVD standards is 30GB. However Toshiba says they can produce a 45GB disc. TDK has already demonstrated the Bluray can produce a 100GB disc, and is working on a 200GB disc. Capacity does matter to the studio's and to game developers. Toshiba would have to rework their players to accomodate a 45GB disc, Bluray would take nothing more than a firmware update from what I understand.
At this point there is a lousy selection of both formats titles, but in the fall that will certainly change as we get near the holidays.
Marketing is a non issue. You can't go anywhere and not see both Toshiba and Sony pushing their formats. Its all over the net, in CE stores, and in magazines and the paper.
This weekend I am going to have a HD DVD player to audition in my system. In the coming weeks I will have a Bluray player to audition. If I cannot find the $499 player, I will probably not be looking at HD DVD. However I am definately going to purchase a Bluray player as soon as more models from more manufacturers hit the streets, and HDMI 1.3 is in the players.
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It looks like the Samsung BR players are the best bang-for-the-buck right now. They offer 1080p from both HDMI and the component outs and are backward compatible with standard DVD's. Better yet, it upconverts standard DVD's via either the component or HDMI outputs. If I was a betting man and had to put down cash now, I'd say that was my pony. But for now, I'm still on the fence.
Supposedly the Sony PS3 will do all this as well and it will play games.
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I don't think that nighflier is right about the 1080p from component. Will someone else confirm or disconfirm?
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You are right Ed. No BRD or HD DVD player will output 1080P from its component outs.
---Dave
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Thanks, Dave, and I'd be much surprised if the Samung upconverted at all from compoment, too.
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Samsung has impressed me with their TV's and I consider them a top brand in that area but I have not cared much for their DVD players, not quite up to snuff with the big dogs on performance. This leaves me hesitant to buy one of their HD disc units.
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they will both fail :out:
i already knew that when hd-dvd and blu-ray was first announced, for a couple of reasons,
1: it isn't really an improvement, from vhs to dvd was an improvement, because it made some visible difference,
2: there are 2 products with the same to offer, only thing is that if you get a player for the one, the other won't play
3: the price, for that normal guy, who is going to pay a 1500 $ for a player?? and then you can't even play both, and you can't see a difference??
4: since it has a larger amount of space to store data on then a dvd, it might (i said might) be usefull for the pc, for data storage like a backup of all your files or a best of games collection on one disk, but even then, who wants to pay it?? 1500 for a player, then you can't even write your own disks, and 20$ for one disk? who wants that?
5: it will actually also fail on the pc department because in a few years Hvd is going to be released, it can hold up several br discs on one disk, so everyone will wait for that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basite
i already knew that when hd-dvd and blu-ray was first announced, for a couple of reasons,
1: it isn't really an improvement, from vhs to dvd was an improvement, because it made some visible difference
Who said you can't see a visable difference? Do you mean J6P can't see a difference because they wont purchase or own the HDTV needed in order to see it? If so, then my feeling is HDTVs will continue to come down in price, and as they do, both BRD and HD DVD will gain much more traction. Neither format is going to make the inroads DVD made when it had its debut though.
---Dave
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This idea that the difference between a hi def and a standard def product isn't visible is foolish. As Dave says, many of the people who think so, or want to think so, don't own a hi def set or don't get hi def progamming if they do. And a sizable contingent is still lurking around who think that because they own an HDTV, regular DVDs played on it become hi def automatically. Many people also suffer from status quo syndrome; they simply can't imagine anything that exceeds the performance of the products that they happen to own. In a way, this one is understandable, but a little firsthand attention to the evolution of audio and video can cure that bit of naivite for good. Badly informed, nonspecialist journalists are also to blame--the ones whose equipment and background experience are all wrong for an assessment and whose presuppositions may color their judgment. A lot of these contrary arguments are just self-serving--whether they protect their proponents from the prospect of spending more money or simply flatter the idea that anything produced by large corporations is a fraud.
I just had a running controversy with a critic from the Boston Globe who claimed that watching films and TV shows on a home theater distracts from the essential core of a work of art (script and acting). To me, that's bollocks. I couldn't care less whether any particular person--critic or otherwise--has a home theater or not, but the self-congratulatory argument that just having one dumbs the viewer down is absurd. The critic was big enough to see the folly of his point, and the exchange was friendly, but his position testifies to the kind of prejudice that still surrounds this endeavor.
Also on the consumer downside is the notion that every new product or format shouldn't cost anything. What kind of nonsense is this? Early production runs cost manufacturers money. Economies of scale bring prices down; this isn't charity. And if early adopters don't do their share, the products don't develop beyond their initial offering. If you don't want to pay, or have serious misgivings about the terms of a launch, then by all means take a pass, but don't justify your decision by insulting the people who don't share your view. They're just as smart as you are.
Finally, you don't buy into HD-DVD or Blu-ray for its backward capabilities. These are a convenience; they don't represent where the money and attention have gone. Maybe the Toshiba upconverts fairly well, as Dave says. Nonetheless, upconversion, which is a dubious distinction in many respects, can be handled equally well, or better, by a host of $300 standard machines on the market. The early adopters have bought these things because they can, they're curious, and they like hi def and are willing to suffer a little inconvenience from the players to experience it in a potentially state of the art way on disk.
Enough said. Let the criticism of the two formats continue.
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Yeah there will be quite a bit of visible difference for those who chose to invest in the right equipment. But that's one of the points...the majority of consumers will not, and they will not see a difference.
But anyway here's my conclusion for the winning format. This is the format that will win, hands down. Here it is...
the winner will be.....
Whichever one comes out with a burner that allows you to copy the movies. There you go. Like it or not, that's how it will be determined.
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I don't agree with the first two sentences, especially when the right equipment--an HD-capable TV--is just about the only kind of TV that people will be able to buy very soon. I don't believe that the number of new purchasers who opt for a low-rent, straggling 20" Orion CRT will outnumber those who opt for a digital set readily available in the local big box store. The only question that remains is whether the size of this new HDTV matters for visibility of better resolution, color, and processing. It does, but not absolutely. The HD difference is visible on a 32" TV, so long as you don't watch it from the next county.
As for who the winner will be in the HD disk sweepstakes, I haven't a clue. I wish I had your clairvoyance, or confidence. Too many intervening variables for me.
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