Dynamic Range

[toenail]

A quick question if I may, concerning dynamic range. Are you selecting the amount of compression, or the amount of dynamic range when choosing min/std/max ? According to most of what I've heard, a setting of min indicates minimum compression and therefore maximum dynamic range. I've been operating under this assumption since I purchased my current unit. My manual reads as follows;

Dynamic Range- Use to select the amount of dynamic range compression to be applied to your speakers or headphones. This setting is effective only when the unit is decoding Dolby Digital and DTS signals. Choices- MAX, STD, MIN

It goes on to provide the following guide to Headphone Settings- MAX for feature film, STD for general listening, MIN for listening to sources at low volume.

This would indicate to me that MAX actually menas MAXIMUM dynamic range as would be ideal for movies, and that MIN would be for MINIMUM dynamic range so you don't get blown out by effects while unable to hear dialogue during low volume playback. A quick check of the difference between MIN and MAX during digital playback seems to point toward supporting this observation with increased surround activity and louder overall playback level for a given relative db setting on the receiver. Any thoughts?

[edtyct]

This is one of those exasperating, ambiguous, often counterintuitive wordings that often crop up in Japanese manuals. I have a Yamaha electronic sound module that labels a DIP switch with hi and low options as an "attenuation setting." You wouldn't know from the manual alone whether selecting "high" meant maximum attenuation of output or minimum attenuation of output. It turns out to mean the latter. The writer/translator construed "attenuation" as "sensitivity."

In your case, my money would have been on max, std, and min referring to degree of compression, rather than amount of dynamic range. Headphones at max compression makes sense to me, since a wide dynamic range at fairly loud volumes would be enough to blow your brains out; std compression could be for music or dialogue-driven films in which dynamic range is naturally limited; and min compression might be fine at low volumes, since the dynamic range wouldn't be so likely to damage your hearing. Anyway, one man's opinion, subject to revision based on your conflicting experience.

[kexodusc]

What units are you referring to? Hopefully someone else here also owns it (them) and can answer this for you.

Most units I've seen have "minimum" refer to minimum or no dynamic range compression, so the widest difference between loud and quiet...at quiet music listening on your gear, wider dynamic range could be tolerable without causing pain...for movies that have huge swings though, you might want more compression...
My old Marantz receivers both had the most cryptic manuals I've ever read (until I borrowed a Denon for a week)....sometimes you've got to do some testing to figure it out for yourself.

[noddin0ff]

On my Yamaha, I'm pretty sure Max provides the largest dynamic range and Min provides the most narrow. I think yours is the same. At lower volumes, if you have a large dynamic range its difficult to hear the voices, they are too soft. Setting to MIN effectively brings them out more relative to the rest of the track.

[LEAFS264]

On my sony receiver I have the compression turned OFF. If that is an option you should keep it off.
it just keeps the sound as pure as possible,with out excess filtering.


Jay

[toenail]

The receiver in question is a Yamaha rxv-450. It sounds like noddin' has had the same experience I did with his unit. The most obvious effect changing these settings had was the flickering output indicator on the BFD. With the setting to MIN, output indicator barely flickered into the bottom/middle of the gauge reading about -30db while playing a reference track from the movie Ronin. Without adjusting the master volume on the receiver, I switched to MAX and replayed the same track and watched the gauge hit -10db and occassionally flicker to the red clipping led. Output sounded much more powrful and shook the room pretty good. In addition to that, the enveloping effect of the surround speakers seems to have improved. There is also an increase in difficulty hearing dialogue during playback while the neighbors are home downstairs and the overall volume is at a lower level.

Unfortunately OFF is not an option on my receiver, just MIN, STD, and MAX. It does appear at this point that MAX represents MAXIMUM dynamic range and minimum compression, contrary to what many have found with their receivers.

[Woochifer]

The receiver in question is a Yamaha rxv-450. It sounds like noddin' has had the same experience I did with his unit. The most obvious effect changing these settings had was the flickering output indicator on the BFD. With the setting to MIN, output indicator barely flickered into the bottom/middle of the gauge reading about -30db while playing a reference track from the movie Ronin. Without adjusting the master volume on the receiver, I switched to MAX and replayed the same track and watched the gauge hit -10db and occassionally flicker to the red clipping led. Output sounded much more powrful and shook the room pretty good. In addition to that, the enveloping effect of the surround speakers seems to have improved. There is also an increase in difficulty hearing dialogue during playback while the neighbors are home downstairs and the overall volume is at a lower level.

Unfortunately OFF is not an option on my receiver, just MIN, STD, and MAX. It does appear at this point that MAX represents MAXIMUM dynamic range and minimum compression, contrary to what many have found with their receivers.

On the Yamaha receivers, MAX dynamic range = no compression, STD = minimal compression, and MIN is the same thing as the "midnight" mode or "compression on" positions on other equipment. These mode only operate when using Dolby Digital because those compression steps are part of the format. DTS does not use dynamic range compression, so you'll find that those compression settings have no effect when playing something in DTS. In general, you only need to use the MAX or MIN positions. I've found that the MAX and STD positions sound too similar to differentiate between them.

The MIN position is more for late night viewing or if you have a soundtrack that got mixed with the sound effects and ambient sounds drowning out the dialog. The whole point of dynamic range compression is to minimize the extremes and keep more of the sounds within the same general volume range.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

On my reciever MAX means maximum compression, and MIN means minimum compression. I have it set to OFF because I know that the quality of the compression used in recievers is not that good on sound quality. There is such a thing as good compression(no percieved effect on sound quality) and bad compression(that shows all kinds of side band and frequency errors and artifacts)

One of the things I have learned in working with professional stand alone compression is that the proper way to do it is in frequency bands as opposed to overall. If it is done overall, then some frequency(the most sensitive to hearing) will sound less compressed than the high highs, and low lows. Compressing by bands ensures that when compression is complete, our ears will still hear a balanced frequency response all the way to the frequency extremes(highs and lows)

Most recievers use wideband compression which makes the highs and the deep bass seemed rolled off to the ears(out of balance)

[toenail]

I guess it would be too much to ask to expect that the manufacturer's would choose a uniform system for defining compression vs dynamic range. As it stands, one man's MAX is another's MIN. It seems that on my unit MAX = OFF, which is what I was looking for. It certainly is a much more involving experience to listen with compression off after hearing it fully compressed for 9 months. I can't believe I was missing this the whole time, simply due to interpretation errors in the manual. An upgrade to my system that cost zero dollars.

[LEAFS264]

Max = Maximum compression on any receiver. Max can not = off.
Sorry but I think you have it all backwards Toenail.

[Woochifer]

Max = Maximum compression on any receiver. Max can not = off.
Sorry but I think you have it all backwards Toenail.

Not on a Yamaha. If you check their setup menus, you'd see that their options refer to "DYNAMIC RANGE" not "COMPRESSION." Maximizing the dynamic range = turning the compression off.

[Woochifer]

I guess it would be too much to ask to expect that the manufacturer's would choose a uniform system for defining compression vs dynamic range. As it stands, one man's MAX is another's MIN. It seems that on my unit MAX = OFF, which is what I was looking for. It certainly is a much more involving experience to listen with compression off after hearing it fully compressed for 9 months. I can't believe I was missing this the whole time, simply due to interpretation errors in the manual. An upgrade to my system that cost zero dollars.

When we're at it, let's get them to hire better proofreaders on their manuals too! If you think Yamaha manuals get cryptic, try out a Denon manual sometime. Might as well try looking at the Portugese or French sections, because those would make about as much sense as the English does at times.

Dynamic range compression is what it is. High compression = lower dynamic range, and Low/no compression = higher dynamic range. Those concepts aren't that difficult to understand, but like a lot of other stuff on a home theater receiver, not so easy to explain in a product manual.

[LEAFS264]

When we're at it, let's get them to hire better proofreaders on their manuals too! If you think Yamaha manuals get cryptic, try out a Denon manual sometime. Might as well try looking at the Portugese or French sections, because those would make about as much sense as the English does at times.

Dynamic range compression is what it is. High compression = lower dynamic range, and Low/no compression = higher dynamic range. Those concepts aren't that difficult to understand, but like a lot of other stuff on a home theater receiver, not so easy to explain in a product manual.

Which is what I said in my last post. It is called Maximum Dynamic Range Compression. Which Denon And Yamaha use with out useing the word Compression. But it is the same feature on all Receivers. It's like DTS or I-LINK, some give it different names like Firewire or
Denon link or IEEE 1394 or what ever it is now. But the end result is the same!!
Maximum Dynamic Compression is great for Night listening. But to go all out...turn it off or as low as possible. You can't think of the Dynamic range as how the speakers are going to fill out a room. You have always got to remember that the setting is the amount of compression it will give to the sound. So for most people a high amount is not going to give them the result they are after. It may be worded different in the manuals. But it is a setting for Compression.


Jay

[Quagmire]

Which is what I said in my last post. It is called Maximum Dynamic Range Compression. Which Denon And Yamaha use with out useing the word Compression. But it is the same feature on all Receivers. It's like DTS or I-LINK, some give it different names like Firewire or
Denon link or IEEE 1394 or what ever it is now. But the end result is the same!!
Maximum Dynamic Compression is great for Night listening. But to go all out...turn it off or as low as possible. You can't think of the Dynamic range as how the speakers are going to fill out a room. You have always got to remember that the setting is the amount of compression it will give to the sound. So for most people a high amount is not going to give them the result they are after. It may be worded different in the manuals. But it is a setting for Compression.


Jay

You're talking two sides of the same coin. Even though the function is basically the same on all receivers, the language used to describe this function is hardly standardized. If you are applying a "maximum" amount of compression to the signal, then you are providing the "minimum" amount of dynamic range; if, however, you are allowing the "maximum" amount of dynamic range, you are applying the "minimum" amount of compression to the signal: Two different ways of describing the same thing.

"It may be worded different in the manuals. But it is a setting for Compression."

Or it is the setting for Dynamic Range which is reduced by adding compression to the audio signal. Yes, it is worded differently in manuals but... it is also labeled differently on receivers depending on how a particular manufacturer chooses to describe it -- once again, hardly standardized.

Q

[toenail]

From LEAFS264
"Max = Maximum compression on any receiver. Max can not = off.
Sorry but I think you have it all backwards Toenail."

I'm not so sure that I have it backwards at all. I own the Yamaha receiver in question and at least to my ears there is a significant increase in Dynamic Range when the setting is on MAX.

[toenail]

Just so that we all understand what it is we are comparing I'll define the behavior of my system one more time. With the Dynamic Range feature set to MIN, dialogue is clearly audible and efffects/LFE are audible but at levels similar to the dialogue. With the Dynamic Range feature set to MAX, the dialogue output doesn't change at all, but the effects/LFE output level increases significantly. I can watch the LFE output as it passes through my Behringer Feedback Destroyer and with the setting on MAX it increased by about 20db vs the MIN setting.

This seems to indicate that the MAX setting means no compression. I can assure you that when I turn the volume down enough to keep effects/LFE from disturbing the people downstairs, dialogue becomes very hard to hear adequately.

I've written an e-mail to the folks at Yamaha and asked for their clarification. I'm not sure they would be able to shed any better light than the illustration above, considering that they are the source of the confusing manual.

[kexodusc]

Toenail: I've owned 2 Yamaha receivers and set-up my bro's HTR-5760 as well...you're definitely right, you want MAX for the largest dynamic range or minimal compression (if any)...

Man, I envy you, if you thought things sounded good before, this little setting should really add another dimension to your experience...

[toenail]

Free audio upgrades are often the best audio upgrades. I always thought I was kind of missing something with the LFE impact and the surround effect. I used to run the sub output much higher to compensate for this but then if went to 2.1 channel for music the sub was far too loud (partly due to humps since tamed by the BFD). Now that I've made this adjustment and tuned the sub to blend in 2.1 channel configuration I'm finding that the LFE is too loud on most 5.1 mixes and have knocked it back 3db via the LFE attenuation circuit in the receiver. Likewise I had set up two different friends inexpensive HTIB's and always thought the surround effect was much more involving on thiers, despite the lack of sound quality. I'm beginning to see now why mine seemed so dull compared to theirs. I've actually adjusted the rear surrounds down a notch or two (by ear till the Avia arrives) because they are at times too distracting from the main stage with the compression turned off. It's like having a whole new system.

This also explains why I thought the 6 channel analog outs sounded so much better than the digital outs. They were playing an uncompressed signal while the Digital out was playing a signal with maximum compression.

Ignorance was bliss, but this is much better.

[LEAFS264]

Thats why we are here.....to help each other. Home audio and video is one of the most frustrating hobbies that people are involved in. I would almost dare to say....as frustrating as GOLF.

Enjoy your new found sound

Jay

[toenail]

Just a follow-up from earlier. I received a response from Yamaha concerning the settings for Dynamic Range on their RXV-450. The following is the text verbatim from the reply e-mail.

Max would indicate not compression and a full signal. It is Dynamic
Range Compression. If you have any more questions please feel free to
contact us at our toll free Customer Support line. 1-800-292-2982
Hours: Monday Thru Friday 8 AM to 4 PM Pacific time.
Sincerely
Ken

As you can see, from the first sentence you would deduce that indeed my suspicions were correct (as confirmed by others). However the following sentence completely contradicts the first one, just like it does in the manual.

This also confirms my fear that if they couldn't get in right in the manual, they wouldn't get it right via e-mail. Oh, well. I'm comfortable with my new found Dynamic Range.