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  1. #51
    Forum Regular brad1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    If this were the case, then you should have known that what you are trying is not a good idea at all. A hobbyist or a salesman probably knows about as much about room acoustics and wave interaction as I know about rocket science. None of these amateurish credentials validates any special knowledge when it comes to the proper way of setting up a home theater.
    You are so full of yourself it is sickening. You can't for a second concede that your beliefs may no be 100% correct. Don't try to tell me what I do and don't know. For instance I know you are a know it all ass hole.

    Why did I share this? I did something and liked the results and wanted to share that. You have spent all your efforts telling me I am wrong and don't know what I am hearing or talking about. I don't care how much knowledge you think you have, you can't tell me what I hear.

    You have presented your position as if it is "gospel" with no wiggle room. I have found arguments for the other side, but you won't even acknowledge they exist. NOTHING is ever black and white, there is always some gray area, but you wont acknowledge that for a sec. I am done having discussions with people who wont do anything other than shout from their pulpit and not shut up.

    I have never ran across a bigger group of Ditto heads (with a couple exceptions) that can't think outside the box. Take your theories and shove them you know where. I am going to enjoy my HT.
    Home Theater:

    Emotiva UMC-200, Citation 5.1 running Mirage M-3SIs, Harman Kardon signature 2.1 running Mirage M-CSI (center) & 4x BIC V-52 (surrounds), 2 x Velodyne ULD 15 Series II Sub & Amp, PS3, PS4, XBOX 1, 2x Adcom ACE-515, Vizio E-701B-3

    2.0 setup:

    Schiit Freya Tube PreAmp, Citation 5.1, Mirage M3SIs, Onkyo DV-CP702 (CD transport), Schiit Modi Multibit DAC.





  2. #52
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by brad1138
    You are so full of yourself it is sickening. You can't for a second concede that your beliefs may no be 100% correct. Don't try to tell me what I do and don't know. For instance I know you are a know it all ass hole.

    Why did I share this? I did something and liked the results and wanted to share that. You have spent all your efforts telling me I am wrong and don't know what I am hearing or talking about. I don't care how much knowledge you think you have, you can't tell me what I hear.

    You have presented your position as if it is "gospel" with no wiggle room. I have found arguments for the other side, but you won't even acknowledge they exist. NOTHING is ever black and white, there is always some gray area, but you wont acknowledge that for a sec. I am done having discussions with people who wont do anything other than shout from their pulpit and not shut up.

    I have never ran across a bigger group of Ditto heads (with a couple exceptions) that can't think outside the box. Take your theories and shove them you know where. I am going to enjoy my HT.

    GOOD for you!!!
    Look, if your funds are limited, then its especially important to do the best with what you have.
    I HAVE A 300 dollar center in the closet, other stuff I hardly use, but it doesnt fit into my system, anyway, you can't expect everybody to be enthusiastic with your setup when
    its basically set up wrong .
    Look at it this way, if it sounds this good now, how do you suppose it will sound decently
    installed? Some have gone years doing the wrong thing, then they start doing the right thing and are amazed.
    All I AM SAYING (hopefully a little more nicely than talks a lot) is that there is an optimum
    way of setting up your gear, you are pissed because you think you had something you
    created, and not only have others heard of it, they think its a bad idea.
    Glad you enjoy your system, maybe someday when you get it set up correctly you
    will see that there is an optimum way of doing things, and your way wasn't it.
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  3. #53
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad1138
    You are so full of yourself it is sickening. You can't for a second concede that your beliefs may no be 100% correct. Don't try to tell me what I do and don't know. For instance I know you are a know it all ass hole.
    You are so full of ignorance it is sickening as well. No, my beliefs are 100% correct, and there is a mountain of evidence that proves this( I linked just one example that you stupidly ignored). Yes, I am an ass hole, but I am an educated one instead of just a stupid one like you are. I don't need to tell you what you don't know, this is as obvious as the big beak on your face.

    Why did I share this? I did something and liked the results and wanted to share that. You have spent all your efforts telling me I am wrong and don't know what I am hearing or talking about. I don't care how much knowledge you think you have, you can't tell me what I hear.
    I can't tell you what you can hear, I can tell you just can't hear. What you really wanted is a co-signer to your stupidity, and now you are mad that there isn't one.

    You have presented your position as if it is "gospel" with no wiggle room. I have found arguments for the other side, but you won't even acknowledge they exist. NOTHING is ever black and white, there is always some gray area, but you wont acknowledge that for a sec. I am done having discussions with people who wont do anything other than shout from their pulpit and not shut up.

    Where are these arguments, I would like to see it as you have not shown them here. You opinion does not count, because it is an opinion of justification and nothing more. There are some grey areas, but you are not in one, you are in a red area, and my link has proven that. If you are done having discussions about the bit of stupidity your have create, good, because I am done hearing about it. Let the door hit ya......

    I have never ran across a bigger group of Ditto heads (with a couple exceptions) that can't think outside the box. Take your theories and shove them you know where. I am going to enjoy my HT.
    So you think you are thinking outside the box? Well, what a waste of time. What's in the box are tools on how to properly set up your speakers, how to properly calibrate them, and how to integrate your system with your room to enhance its performance. So the box has every tool you need, so there is no need to re-invent the wheel with a square shape instead of a round one, the research has already been done.

    Go enjoy your H, as you have yet to get to the T part.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
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  4. #54
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Now, now characters...this has been an interesting and informative conversation that I would like to see continue...but let's all take a deep breath and take it easy with the name calling.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  5. #55
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Well, being logical, if you start with two drivers and add two more, you should effectively double the air movement.
    That only works if they are clustered together tight enough to get a proximity gain. Spaced woofers may give the speaker better power handling, but it does not effectively double the movement of air, especially not with the woofers the size the OP has.

    What about the "phantom center channel"? I understand you are using two left/right speakers to create the phantom but those signals designated as center content have to be mono in order to be centered in the middle of the sound stage. Is there some reason this works horizontally and not vertically?
    Actually, you do experience cancellation when using a phantom center channel. One of the main things that THX found out when developing the criteria for THX, was that phantom imaging of dialog produced a diffusive effect that contributed to dialog intelligibility issues when other signals where present in the L/R speakers. This comes from a head related transfer distortion between 1-4khz which is eliminated by including a hard center speaker. In music, we usually eq to counter the effect on vocals that are mixed phantomly.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 08-03-2010 at 06:13 PM.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
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    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
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  6. #56
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody


    Oh, I get it now, two centers isn't enough, he needs four, in a diamond shape around his TV, one on top, one underneath, and one on each side! diamond......
    Ahhhh no!
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
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    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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  7. #57
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad1138
    Other than the obvious benifit of the vocals coming from the TV rather than below it, they come across more powerful and more full, giving the effect of a much larger spk, I am really pleased with the results.
    There is always a challenge with the center channel in a home theater arrangement where the speakers cannot play through an acoustically transparent screen and be suitably large and well placed. With most home systems, they must either be placed either above or below the screen or monitor, neither of which is necessarily ideal with creating a lifelike image. Your solution seems to address that image size factor but as has been pointed out, involves the compromises of comb filtering. You might actually consider disconnecting one of the tweeters to minimize that effect. You would then have a pseudo MTM arrangement. In my situation, the horizontally oriented MTM center is placed below a 61" monitor and aimed slightly upwards. That works ok, but there is still a sense of listening down to dialogue.

    Each of us has their own preferences and the compromises with which we are most comfortable.

    rw

  8. #58
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Now, now characters...this has been an interesting and informative conversation that I would like to see continue...but let's all take a deep breath and take it easy with the name calling.
    Party pooper.
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    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
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  9. #59
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    There is always a challenge with the center channel in a home theater arrangement where the speakers cannot play through an acoustically transparent screen and be suitably large and well placed.
    That challenge was conquered long ago when the ITU-775 standards were introduced.


    With most home systems, they must either be placed either above or below the screen or monitor, neither of which is necessarily ideal with creating a lifelike image.
    The way our ear/brain works, it will associate the dialog right on screen as long as there are no huge dis-association of the speaker from the screen(like it being placed wide left or right of the screen). If he sat his center speaker on top of the television(with an aim downward toward the listener) the dialog will be associated towards the screen. If he put it below the screen and aimed it up towards the listening position, the dialog will be associated with the screen. If you raise the screen so the bottom of it is at eye level when seated, place the speaker on a stand in front of the television so it is near ear height, this would be a perfect solution for the association of the dialog coming directly from the screen. The OP's set up has the dual center channel in a cove under the television(can anyone say early reflections and cavity resonance). What he did was place aesthetics over performance. Nothing more.

    Your solution seems to address that image size factor but as has been pointed out, involves the compromises of comb filtering. You might actually consider disconnecting one of the tweeters to minimize that effect. You would then have a pseudo MTM arrangement. In my situation, the horizontally oriented MTM center is placed below a 61" monitor and aimed slightly upwards. That works ok, but there is still a sense of listening down to dialogue.

    Each of us has their own preferences and the compromises with which we are most comfortable.

    rw
    In one of my rooms the center speaker sits 7" below the screen, but on a 30" stand. I have never had the impression that dialog was coming from anywhere but the screen. But of course, my center channel is vertically oriented, and that might make a difference.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
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  10. #60
    ISCET CET, FCC CTT, USITT Dual-500's Avatar
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    Guys this is a good lively discussion for sure. I hadn't posted for a few years on AR - went into the computers/forums a couple of years and as of late have been on the car forums as I have a hotrod / daily driver I have been working for the past couple of years restoring and such.

    Currently looking for some technical materials to support my discussion and viewpoints on this thread & topic.

    A little history is warranted:

    I didn't post to troll and start a flame-a-thon. My original intent for logging on to AR was for discussion on Center Channel usage or not. I have been considering using phantom mode and doing away with the center all together - did some A/B listening with phantom mode routing center signals to L&R mains. Center is active in my current setup as are L&R mains. It sounds different between the two modes, sounds good in both modes, but at this point I prefer using the system with center in the movie mode.

    The difference got me wondering. Hardware is identical in L&R mains and center with the exception of the midrange horn in center -vs- horns used in L&R mains. Both use the same dual 8" drivers for low mids and same mid drivers on the horns as well as the same HF driver/horn. Crossover is bit different with L&R mains being full digital which allows for complete time correction while the center only allows for time correction between low mid 8's and mid horn.

    BTW, I just eq'd it after a change out of the equalizer. Went from parametric to 1/3 octave graphic and back to parametric.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    * I'll find the technical material and continue the discussion regarding using dual discrete centers in the next day or so.

    Intensity is high, let's not forget we're all hobbyists and treat one another respect - and respect one another's ideas.

    To be continued........gotta dial into a telecon for work.

    Cheers my hifi brothers!!!!

  11. #61
    ISCET CET, FCC CTT, USITT Dual-500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Now, now characters...this has been an interesting and informative conversation that I would like to see continue...but let's all take a deep breath and take it easy with the name calling.
    Absolutely agreed. The insults are flying - I probably need to go back and re-read some of my posts for qustionable comments.

    And honestly, there's good discussion to be had here.

  12. #62
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    That challenge was conquered long ago when the ITU-775 standards were introduced...the dialog will be associated towards the screen. If he put it below the screen and aimed it up towards the listening position, the dialog will be associated with the screen.
    *Associated", perhaps. I prefer the IMAX approach where the fronts and center share the same vertical plane. One of Tomlinson's demos uses the same approach. Look here at Figure 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The OP's set up has the dual center channel in a cove under the television(can anyone say early reflections and cavity resonance).
    While his photos suggests a single center (likely taken before the change), his description does not. I refer to this: "I have 1 S1 upright below the TV and the other upside down above it. " Above and below screen. Which centers the image as one finds in theatres.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 08-04-2010 at 01:15 PM.

  13. #63
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    SteveW, you didn't post your equipment in your profile, what do you have?

  14. #64
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Mr. P and E-Stat...

    You are some of the few around here that understand that listening to a system is more than just numbers and graphics, that it is an emotional experience that involves many of our senses and evokes something special inside us, something we wish to replicate time and time again with our music.

    Thank you both for your contributions around here.

  15. #65
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    *Associated", perhaps. I prefer the IMAX approach where the fronts and center share the same vertical plane. One of Tomlinson's demos uses the same approach. Look here at Figure 1.
    I was a student of Tomlinson when he was working on the 10.2 system. I heard that system a lot while in school. What you don't see from that picture is that the center speaker is NOT on the same plane, it is actually pushed back a bit so that it is physically aligned(by distance) with the L/R mains to the listening seat. He is actually augmenting the ITU-B775 setup with additional points in space to create more envelopment, and more directional capabilities.

    The IMAX system uses electronic delay to line up its speakers for equidistant placement. With this delay, it allows the IMAX front speakers to project a singular acoustical wave when projecting sound to the audience. The "voice of god" speaker on top of the screen uses that same delay to align its output with the other front speakers.


    While his photos suggests a single center (likely taken before the change), his description does not. I refer to this: "I have 1 S1 upright below the TV and the other upside down above it. " Above and below screen. Which centers the image as one finds in theatres.

    rw
    Theaters don't use two speakers, and this is still a poor practice for all of the reasons I outlined. You don't need two center speaker to center the image, our ear/brain already does this work. With this setup, he now has timing issues to deal with along with the other issues I outlined, as he will be hearing those two spaced speaker output hitting his ears at two different times. Now you must know that having the output of two speakers with the same information hitting the ears at two different times is not going to be great for the dialog. It will sound smeared and diffused. His television is not tall enough that he really needs two centers, I have a 65" that does not need two center to focus the dialog on the screen. I just placed the center speaker just below the bottom of the screen, and my ears and brain do the rest.

    This is a poor practice no matter how you slice or dice it.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
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    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
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    THX Style Baffle wall

  16. #66
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW
    Guys this is a good lively discussion for sure. I hadn't posted for a few years on AR - went into the computers/forums a couple of years and as of late have been on the car forums as I have a hotrod / daily driver I have been working for the past couple of years restoring and such.

    Currently looking for some technical materials to support my discussion and viewpoints on this thread & topic.

    A little history is warranted:

    I didn't post to troll and start a flame-a-thon. My original intent for logging on to AR was for discussion on Center Channel usage or not. I have been considering using phantom mode and doing away with the center all together - did some A/B listening with phantom mode routing center signals to L&R mains. Center is active in my current setup as are L&R mains. It sounds different between the two modes, sounds good in both modes, but at this point I prefer using the system with center in the movie mode.

    The difference got me wondering. Hardware is identical in L&R mains and center with the exception of the midrange horn in center -vs- horns used in L&R mains. Both use the same dual 8" drivers for low mids and same mid drivers on the horns as well as the same HF driver/horn. Crossover is bit different with L&R mains being full digital which allows for complete time correction while the center only allows for time correction between low mid 8's and mid horn.

    BTW, I just eq'd it after a change out of the equalizer. Went from parametric to 1/3 octave graphic and back to parametric.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    * I'll find the technical material and continue the discussion regarding using dual discrete centers in the next day or so.

    Intensity is high, let's not forget we're all hobbyists and treat one another respect - and respect one another's ideas.

    To be continued........gotta dial into a telecon for work.

    Cheers my hifi brothers!!!!

    Your center needs to match your left-right speakers as closely as possible, sometimes three identical speakers are used.
    ALSO, the center is the most important speaker, up to 90% of teh sound comes out of it,
    you can get by without one, but its not recommended.
    And you still don't get it, its not a matter of "respect" for ideas, dual centers is
    the wrong way to do it, period.
    I HAVE PLENTY OF RESPECT FOR YOU, but if you're jumping out of the plane without
    a chute, its incumbent upon me to point it out to you, is all.
    There is a certain way of doing things sometimes, its not a matter of opinion.
    Sometimes several ways of doing things...but not this time.
    One center is all you need ...PERIOD.
    You need more "spread", get a bigger center, they make some pretty large.
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  17. #67
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    What you don't see from that picture is that the center speaker is NOT on the same plane, it is actually pushed back a bit so that it is physically aligned(by distance) with the L/R mains to the listening seat.
    When I speak of the vertical plane, I refer to the height of the mains vs. the center. It sure appears from the picture that the center and fronts use the same stands. Elbow height is the same for both center and right speaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The IMAX system uses electronic delay to line up its speakers for equidistant placement. With this delay, it allows the IMAX front speakers to project a singular acoustical wave when projecting sound to the audience. The "voice of god" speaker on top of the screen uses that same delay to align its output with the other front speakers.
    Ok. My point is that they are not found below or above the screen. They are located in the same vertical plane as you see with the guys in the 10.2 photo - albeit they are a tad larger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Theaters don't use two speakers, and this is still a poor practice for all of the reasons I outlined.
    Consistent vertical alignment eliminates the need for separate speakers. Having a monitor in the middle, however, changes the equation. Neither above nor below is ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I have a 65" that does not need two center to focus the dialog on the screen. I just placed the center speaker just below the bottom of the screen, and my ears and brain do the rest.
    My brain is not as convincingly fooled with a similar arrangement which is why I continue to prefer the IMAX approach. The image is not consistent across the stage with the staggered vertical approach required by most home theaters.

    rw

  18. #68
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    When I speak of the vertical plane, I refer to the height of the mains vs. the center. It sure appears from the picture that the center and fronts use the same stands. Elbow height is the same for both center and right speaker.
    Then you are correct.

    Ok. My point is that they are not found below or above the screen. They are located in the same vertical plane as you see with the guys in the 10.2 photo.
    You are right, but they are not supporting video either.

    Consistent vertical alignment eliminates the need for separate speakers. Having a monitor in the middle, however, changes the equation. Neither above nor below is ideal.
    Not necessarily. Both above and below are perfectly acceptable as long as the speaker is vertically oriented. As I stated before, if you place the television so the bottom of the screen is at eye level, then you can place the center speaker so its top is aligned with the bottom of the television (very few folks use monitors, they have no speakers or tuners). That is below the television, and I have never heard this setup dis-associate the dialog from the screen.

    THX has found that you can have the maximum of 16" of displacement between the tweeters of the center speaker and L/R mains before you start noticing an image jumping. So they allow that much offset even in THX approved set ups. The ear/brain is terrific at associating the dialog with the screen as long as you don't violate that 16" rule


    My brain is not as convincingly fooled with a similar arrangement. I continue to prefer the IMAX approach.

    rw
    You also use a horizontal center speaker, that is a problem in and of itself.
    A nice healthy floor interaction will give away a location of a speaker pretty quickly. Aside from that, the IMAX approach does not use dissimilar front speakers. They are all the same, and are oriented the same.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  19. #69
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You are right, but they are not supporting video either.
    True, but they are illustrating the ideal relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    That is below the television, and I have never heard this setup dis-associate the dialog from the screen.
    Ok. I find such misalignment somewhat distracting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    THX has found that you can have the maximum of 16" of displacement between the tweeters of the center speaker and L/R mains before you start noticing an image jumping.
    That is an interesting parameter. In my case that would place the mains tweeters at a height of no more than 30.5" and they are substantially higher now. Practically speaking, that would mean I would just place the mains on top of the subs since I have no latitude with the center's vertical placement. I'll try that approach, but having been accustomed to full height line sources for thirty some years, I really don't like listening "down" to the sound field. Thanks for the tip in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You also use a horizontal center speaker, that is a problem in and of itself.
    Yet another HT compromise dictated by practicality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    They are all the same, and are oriented the same.
    It's back to that concept of using the same vertical plane - which is not commonly found with HT systems, hence my original comment about the obvious challenges.

    rw

  20. #70
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    True, but they are illustrating the ideal relationship.
    For music sources at the moment, he has never applied his concept to real world video environments. At this moment THX is the only source that has applied its concepts to real world video and film environments - hence why its standards are applied in most HT pre-pro's, and receivers whether THX certified or not.


    Ok. I find such misalignment somewhat distracting.
    You have a horizontal center speaker, I don't. That probably accounts for the difference of opinion.

    That is an interesting parameter. In my case that would place the mains tweeters at a height of no more than 30.5" and they are substantially higher now. Practically speaking, that would mean I would just place the mains on top of the subs since I have no latitude with the center's vertical placement. I'll try that approach, but having been accustomed to full height line sources for thirty some years, I really don't like listening "down" to the sound field. Thanks for the tip in any case.
    Remember, this parimeter does not have anything to do with the height of any speaker, but the difference in distance between the center axis of the tweeters in the center and L/R mains. This also represents a worst case scenario, which would seem extreme to me in most enthusiasts home theaters.

    Once again, that may be a case of difference of orientation of the center speaker. You aim your horizontally oriented speaker upwards (with its wide vertical dispersion pattern), and you get a little less floor bounce, and a little more ceiling bounce. I aim mine upwards(with its narrow vertical dispersion pattern), and it directs more energy to my ears, without really changing its reflection relationship between the floor and ceiling, or the side walls. Aiming my center upwards has the advantage of offsetting the difference in height that the center and L/R tweeters have (4" difference). That might be why we have a difference in perspectives - there may be other reasons as well.


    Yet another HT compromise dictated by practicality.
    Agreed. Its all a balance between ideal and compromises dictated by circumstances.


    It's back to that concept of using the same vertical plane - which is not commonly found with HT systems, hence my original comment about the obvious challenges.

    rw


    This is a hard comment to make. Nobody has done research into how most folks orient their center speaker in relationship to their L/R mains in the vertical plane - or quite frankly calibrate or align their systems, so this statement might fail under more careful scrutiny. However, on some level you might be right. The original poster decided it was time to make new rules concerning wave propagation in small rooms, and take very generous liberties in regards to a great many tried and true HT placement concepts, that on this level you may be spot on.

    The vertical plane is only a third of the equation - simular radiation pattern, and simular speaker is the other. One out of three ain't bad, but it is no cigar either.
    Sir Terrence

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  21. #71
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    For music sources at the moment...
    And the way the IMAX theaters are configured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Remember, this parimeter does not have anything to do with the height of any speaker, but the difference in distance between the center axis of the tweeters in the center and L/R mains.
    The simple concept was clear. When one speaker's vertical position cannot be moved, however, then any variation must necessarily occur with the other. I cannot raise the center's position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    That might be why we have a difference in perspectives - there may be other reasons as well.
    There are. I prefer symmetric and coherent imaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    This is a hard comment to make. Nobody has done research into how most folks orient their center speaker in relationship to their L/R mains in the vertical plane - or quite frankly calibrate or align their systems, so this statement might fail under more careful scrutiny.
    Do you believe that IMAX and other cinemas who have the luxury of placing the center at the same vertical plane as the fronts do that for no deliberate reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The original poster decided it was time to make new rules concerning wave propagation in small rooms, and take very generous liberties in regards to a great many tried and true HT placement concepts, that on this level you may be spot on.
    Or, choice "B", demonstrates different priorities among imperfect choices.

    rw

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    I listened to phantom center before and to me it doesn't compare to having an actual center. Can't explain why, but it defintely sounds better with a center channel speaker.

    I have one of those twin tower entertainment centers with a bridge. When I had my old school rear projection TV my center sat on the bridge that went across the top of the TV. I had to work to associate the sound with the center screen. When I got my DLP I spread the towers and took the bridge out. The center went under the TV. The imaging was much better and the sound naturally seemed to be coming from the center screen. I believe the improvement was two fold, first it may be what Sir T was talking about with the center tweeter being closer aligned to the mains tweeter, and in each position the center fired forward, on top it just sat flat and on bottom there's not enough room to tilt up, so when it was on top I think more went over my head than in my ears, on bottom the center still fires forward but the sound can only go up and it's closer to my face. Like you all say each set up is different with it's own unique issues but unless your mains are tall with tweeters on top I think one is probably better with a center at bottom of screen. I guess ideal would be screen mounted on wall to where all three fronts could be same height.

    PSkies, thanks for the kind words.

  23. #73
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    And the way the IMAX theaters are configured.
    And so are THX certified theaters and every other movie theater in the world.


    The simple concept was clear. When one speaker's vertical position cannot be moved, however, then any variation must necessarily occur with the other. I cannot raise the center's position.
    Exactly!


    There are. I prefer symmetric and coherent imaging.
    We don't differ here. How do you achieve that with a front sound stage with two different radiation patterns?


    Do you believe that IMAX and other cinemas who have the luxury of placing the center at the same vertical plane as the fronts do that for no deliberate reason?
    You weren't speaker of theaters, you said this

    It's back to that concept of using the same vertical plane - which is not commonly found with HT systems, hence my original comment about the obvious challenges.

    How did you get from HT systems to theaters with your comments?



    Or, choice "B", demonstrates different priorities among imperfect choices.

    rw
    Or unnecessary compromises when their are better choices.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
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  24. #74
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    And so are THX certified theaters and every other movie theater in the world.
    And theatres at the moment, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    We don't differ here. How do you achieve that with a front sound stage with two different radiation patterns?
    How do you achieve a realistic image with a staggered center? Certainly, such is not tolerated at an IMAX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You weren't speaker of theaters, you said this
    As for me, I use the same criteria for home theatres as well as - theatres!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    How did you get from HT systems to theaters with your comments?
    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Or unnecessary compromises when their are better choices.
    Such are value judgements not shared by everyone. Clearly when it comes to speakers, there is hardly one size that fits all.

    rw

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I listened to phantom center before and to me it doesn't compare to having an actual center. Can't explain why, but it defintely sounds better with a center channel speaker.

    I have one of those twin tower entertainment centers with a bridge. When I had my old school rear projection TV my center sat on the bridge that went across the top of the TV. I had to work to associate the sound with the center screen. When I got my DLP I spread the towers and took the bridge out. The center went under the TV. The imaging was much better and the sound naturally seemed to be coming from the center screen. I believe the improvement was two fold, first it may be what Sir T was talking about with the center tweeter being closer aligned to the mains tweeter, and in each position the center fired forward, on top it just sat flat and on bottom there's not enough room to tilt up, so when it was on top I think more went over my head than in my ears, on bottom the center still fires forward but the sound can only go up and it's closer to my face. Like you all say each set up is different with it's own unique issues but unless your mains are tall with tweeters on top I think one is probably better with a center at bottom of screen. I guess ideal would be screen mounted on wall to where all three fronts could be same height.

    PSkies, thanks for the kind words.
    Sounding better with center - yes. So far with limited testing that's the case in my setup also.

    Center and L&R mains are identical with the exception of the horn/lens flare on the center being larger. Differences in 1" throat midrange compression drivers is nominal at best - all have phenolic diaphragms. Vertical orientation of high mid horns is within 6". I can't attribute the difference in sound to the diffierence in the mid horn/lens flare.

    I just retuned the center with the change of the eq from graphic to parametric. Haven't checked the L&R mains for tuning, but will do so soon as a crossover change is pending for L&R mains.

    Seems like it's both point source localization and overall tone. The center seems to eq differently than do the L&R mains - or simply is eq'd differently - or both. I haven't looked into that yet. Both L&R mains and center have parametric eq.

    Center sits a little behind the L&R mains due to mock up setup. That may account for some of the tuning difference - not sure at this point. The mid horns on the L&R mains are nominal 80 degree horizontal coverage as I recall (McCauley 416 horn/lens) while the center is around 120 degrees horizontal if memory serves me correctly (McCauley 455 horn/lens). The final system configuration will have JBL 2390 horn/lens with JBL 2482 compression drivers.

    Physically the L&R mains sit about 32" in front of the center, but are electronically corrected to align with the sub which is ~12" ahead of the center.

    Again, the setup is in a temporary mock up condition as it has been morphing the past couple of years. I think I've arrived at the final configuration and have all the components.

    Time for some cabinet work.

    Center is flying, 46" monitor sits beneath center speaker, on top of sub for now. System corner loads into room. When completed, the center and L&R mains will also be flown, with sub remaining on the floor.

    I'm interested in tuning experiences and any differences noted between center and L&R mains in tuning - for setups with closely matched centers and L&R mains.

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