Dolby Digital DVD's and Trouble with Dialogue - Help PLEASE?

[MCF]

I am having trouble understanding dialogue while listening to dolby digital DVD's. My center channel is a Klipsch RC-25 (two 5.25" woofers and a horn) and my reciever is a Harman Kardon AVR-635. I have the center channel set at small and the crossover set at 80Hz and have adjusted the gain to it +/- 2-3dB above and below all other speakers (all set at small and 80Hz) and that does not seem to help much. It seems like the other sounds coming from the center channel are making it difficult to understand dialogue - the dialague seems muffled or not very crisp. I do not have trouble understanding dialogue while watching tv, etc., just dolby digital dvd's. The reciever is connected to a Sony DVD player via an optical cable. The center channel is located above the tv in a built in bookshelf, but there is air space above, behind and on either side of the center channel and the front extends out beyond the shelft about an 1" to make sure the sound field from the center channel is not cut off. I have also 'angled' the center channel to make it point right at the seating area and that does not seem to make any difference. Are there any adjustments other than crossover and gain that will help boost dialogue or make it more crisp and understandable? Would adjusting treble, bass or delay's help any? Any suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

[edtyct]

Just some quick thoughts: Do you have cinema EQ engaged? In situations when it is unnecessary (almost all of them), it might muddle the sound of dialogue. Is the delay to your center channel too long, based on its distance from you (it might be worth checking all the delays)? Is your room too lively, with reflections all over the place? Is the center channel located off-center relative to the sweet spot between the mains so that when you angle it, the sound has to compete directly with that of your left or right speaker? If so, you'd probably be better off, letting it fire directly to the center and making your adjustments from there. Normally, you shouldn't have to use any tone controls to compensate for a Dolby Digital feed, but sound that is incorrigibly indistinct, due to speaker design, might benefit from a treble boost and/or bass cut, though that's definitely not where I'd go first.

Ed

[MCF]

The center channel off to the right, but I have it set to where it fires straight ahead, even though the tv is slightly angled in to the center of the room. Now, the right front speaker is located about 4 feet to the right of the center (and about 13 feet away from left front) and middle of the right front speaker is about 3 feet higher than the middle of the center speaker. The right front is angled in and down slightly to fire towards the center of the room per Klipsh's recommendation.

How do I make sure the Cinema EQ is off? I believe it is, but want to make sure. The Harman Kardon has a 'night mode' which helps keep peeks down..is this the same thing?

The room is pretty lively...about 18' wide by 18' deep with hard wood floors. The room is also on the second floor.

[shokhead]

Night mode off and it happens,hard to hear so just bumb up the center level. EQ an stuff in setup menu.

[MCF]

Boosting the gain to the center is the first thing I tried...no help as it also boosts the other sounds the center produces..I believe it's the other sounds coming out of the center that are muddying up the dialogue.....turning night mode on medium helps if anything..but takes away from some of the movie affects...

[hershon]

A few thoughts. Just for the hell of it, go back to your original settings but switch the speaker setup to Large instead of Small. This might eliminate the problem.

What movie(s) do you have the problem with? Maybe its one specific not the whole lot. If it is everything, then try increasing the volume/DB level on the speakers that give give the majority of the dialogue. Also check your EQ's- bass & treble.

On my Denon receiver for instance when I'm watching TV off the cable, I have to put all the speakers on 4 DB's instead of 0 as it sounds better which makes no sense. The same setting for DVD's/CD's, messes up the sound.

Also check you DVD playter's settings as well as your receivers settings.

Boosting the gain to the center is the first thing I tried...no help as it also boosts the other sounds the center produces..I believe it's the other sounds coming out of the center that are muddying up the dialogue.....turning night mode on medium helps if anything..but takes away from some of the movie affects...

[Woochifer]

Before you go any further, have you verified that all of your connections and the receiver setup are correct? Also, what main speakers are you using? Lastly, have you set the levels for all of your speakers using a SPL meter?

It may seem redundant, but incorrect setups are typically the most common culprit in these situations. If you're using a digital connection, is your receiver reading it as a 5.1 DD bitstream or as an analog two-channel input? If the center speaker is switched on in a 5.1 DD setup but not properly connected, then it will obviously not sound right. You should try running the channel-by-channel test tone from your receiver to make sure that all of the speakers are connected properly.

Next, are your main speakers also part of the Klipsch reference series? Timbre mismatches between the mains and the center speaker can also make the front soundstage problematic.

Lastly, have you verified the levels with a SPL meter and a test tone? You mentioned that you've already tried varying the level of the center speaker. But, the placement and differences in sensitivity levels between the center and mains might necessitate even larger adjustments than you've already tried. Klipsch's main speakers are designed with very high sensitivity, so that could mean large adjustments to match the center speaker.

Once you've verified all of that and you still have issues, then you need to consider different placement, using the center channel EQ (if available), or switching off the rear center channel to check for comb filtering effects.

[MCF]

I have not yet set levels using an SPL meter...I just got one last night and will do that this Sunday when I return home. I have verified using the Harman Kardon reciever test tones that all speakers are connected correctly. I am using Harman Kardon RB-25's in the front and RS-25's for surround and the center is an RC-25 (so all should match). I am using an optical cable from my Sony 5 disc DVD player (which is setup using the menus for dolby digital, DTS, etc.) and when playing DVD's, I am getting Dolby Digital (LCD on reciever shows Dolby Digital and all five speaker location are highlighted and letters are in each speaker). The DVD player is a little over a year old. Could it be the DVD player? Also, all speaker sizes and crossovers, etc. are done with the reciever (when connecting the DVD player to a reciever using an optical cable, those menus are disabled on the DVD player). Speakers are set to small and crossover is set at 80Hz.

I am pretty much stuck with placement of the speaker. The left and right speakers are about 14 apart with the center channel off center to the right about 4 feet from the front right speaker...this is where my tv sits because of a fireplace in the middle of the front wall. I am not sure if my HK AVR-635 has a center channel EQ...I don't beieve so.

[kexodusc]

Woochifer gives sound advice...make sure you check off everything in that list first, then re-confirm the appropriate distance/delay settings.

My first thought was maybe your DVD settings (or receiver) settings might not be set properly...ie: the bitstream out, PCM etc but before we start aimlessly troubleshooting, I recommend you start over with everything and report back to us.
Just curious, do you have to tell your DVD player how many speakers your system has? Some models are goofy like that even for passing Dolby Digital/DTS bitrstream info.
What model is your DVD player? How long have you had the player/receiver? Has it been like this since day 1?

Edit: obviously I typed this just as you were posting a response to Wooch...sorry for the redundance...

[MCF]

I am not sure about the model # of the Sony DVD player. I have gone thru the manual and all the settings for it. You can't select number of speakers or size of speakers using the DVD when it is connected via optical cable. You can only make sure Dolby Digital is on. I have it set to 48Khz (I think that is right). I just got the system set up about two weeks ago and was mainly focusing on getting the surround speakers right so I wasn't really focusing on dialogue (I would play scenes from movies that I knew would have surround affects and make adjustments). Now that I am happy with the fronts and surrounds I decided to actually start watching movies in their entirety. Now I have discovered this problem with hearing dialogue. One other thing, I bi-wired the Klipsh center channel and that seemed to help some...if that means anything.

[kexodusc]

The bi-wiring confuses me even more...I think at this stage you are best off to snarf up an SPL meter and go back to square one.

However, now that I think about it, doesn't your receiver have HK's EzSet/Auto calibration/eq feature? These I've traditionally found to every bit as accurate as a Radio Shack SPL meter (though I've never used HK's). I would think running that should at least get you close to a proper volume setting, close to the right delay settings...enough that dialogue wouldn't be an issue as you describe.
Unfortunately, you won't know until you find out...but it might be worth your while to give the EzSet one last go before dropping cash on an SPL meter (which, by the way I feel every one should have even with auto-setup features)

[hershon]

To reiterate I had the same problem which immediately went away when, pick 1, I changed the speaker size from small to large & 2. I got a new DVD player.

I am not sure about the model # of the Sony DVD player. I have gone thru the manual and all the settings for it. You can't select number of speakers or size of speakers using the DVD when it is connected via optical cable. You can only make sure Dolby Digital is on. I have it set to 48Khz (I think that is right). I just got the system set up about two weeks ago and was mainly focusing on getting the surround speakers right so I wasn't really focusing on dialogue (I would play scenes from movies that I knew would have surround affects and make adjustments). Now that I am happy with the fronts and surrounds I decided to actually start watching movies in their entirety. Now I have discovered this problem with hearing dialogue. One other thing, I bi-wired the Klipsh center channel and that seemed to help some...if that means anything.

[MCF]

What't the difference if the speaker is set to small or large if you manually adjust the crossover to 80Hz?? I thought that setting it to large or small affected the crossover point to send low frequencies to the sub, but if I set the crossover for a speaker to 80Hz, then aren't all frequencies below 80Hz going to the sub regardless if the speaker is set to large or small?

Also, I ran the Harman Kardon Ezset/Eq and it for one reason or another really messes up my delays - sets the distances farther away than my room size is even...maybe because of some acoustic things going on in the room.

[Quagmire]

I am having trouble understanding dialogue while listening to dolby digital DVD's. My center channel is a Klipsch RC-25 (two 5.25" woofers and a horn) and my reciever is a Harman Kardon AVR-635. I have the center channel set at small and the crossover set at 80Hz and have adjusted the gain to it +/- 2-3dB above and below all other speakers (all set at small and 80Hz) and that does not seem to help much. It seems like the other sounds coming from the center channel are making it difficult to understand dialogue - the dialague seems muffled or not very crisp. I do not have trouble understanding dialogue while watching tv, etc., just dolby digital dvd's. The reciever is connected to a Sony DVD player via an optical cable. The center channel is located above the tv in a built in bookshelf, but there is air space above, behind and on either side of the center channel and the front extends out beyond the shelft about an 1" to make sure the sound field from the center channel is not cut off. I have also 'angled' the center channel to make it point right at the seating area and that does not seem to make any difference. Are there any adjustments other than crossover and gain that will help boost dialogue or make it more crisp and understandable? Would adjusting treble, bass or delay's help any? Any suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

MCF,
I think it is quite possible that you have mulitple problems effecting your setup. Woochifer generally gives great advice, and I think he is on the right track here as well. One of the things that I highly suspected upon reading your post was a wiring problem with some speaker(s) wired "out of phase". When you say that you have the center channel speaker bi-wired it makes me all the more suspicious of such a problem. First of all, what do you mean by "bi-wired" and how have you accomplished this? Some folks don't really know what bi-wiring or bi-amping are and can create a real mess trying to bi-wire speakers. Are any of the other speakers in your system bi-wired? For the purpose of troubleshooting this problem, I would suggest that you abandon all bi-wiring and create the most straight forward speaker connections that you can.

Having the center speaker offset as you do may be creating additional problems with intelligibility, especially if this setup creates a situation where you are seated more closely to one of the front mains than you are to the center speaker. Something you can try just to verify if this is a problem is to move the center speaker so that it is equidistant from the L & R main speakers or so that it is "centered" between them and then recalibrate your system. Do so without regard to keeping the center speaker near the video display, you are doing this solely for troubleshooting purposes just to see if this helps with sound. You can't correct a problem until you first identify it, and the first step of troubleshooting is always to "ISOLATE THE PROBLEM".

You MAY have a bad center channel speaker, but you always want to eliminate the basic stuff first because if you don't, you could go as far as replacing the speaker only to find that the problem has come along for the ride; and besides... you always want to optimize your setup no matter what speakers you have in the system, and frequently, these "basics" of setup and calibration make the most difference in overall system performance. It is certainly true that miscalibration and setup problems are the easiest way to distroy system performance, but for some strange reason, far too many people don't believe that it makes that much difference in creating good system performance when it is done right. I've always been at a loss to understand why.

One other point I would bring up is this... If you are moving from a Pro Logic sytem to a Dolby Digital system for the first time, it may take awhile for you to get used to the differences in sound processing. The old Pro Logic format created what I call a "Center Channel Bloat" where too much information was sent to that speaker. The discrete formats like DD and DTS do a far better job of spreading the sound out, but if you're used to how Pro Logic sounds, it can take awhile to get used to it.

Q