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  1. #1
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    Unhappy Confused about Dolby TrueHD...

    Ok so my RX-V3800 can decode dolby true hd..... the sony BDP-S500 can output it.... but I've got a fiber optic cable for sound connecting the two. Is this the problem? Do I HAVE to run the hdmi from the bluray TO the receiver and then one out from the receiver to my TV?

    But then it says my player can decode internally and then just send it through the fiber optic cable. Is this truHD anymore?

    The trueHD light on my receiver isn't lighting up so something's no go here.... please help a lost soul. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, you'll have to run HDMI from player to your AVR and then from your AVR HDMI out to your display.

    Read this for more info:
    Bluray Breakdown

    DTS has a nice explanation as well:
    http://www.dts.com/DTS_In_Consumer_P...nnections.aspx

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    Yeah, you'll have to run HDMI from player to your AVR and then from your AVR HDMI out to your display.

    Read this for more info:
    Bluray Breakdown

    DTS has a nice explanation as well:
    http://www.dts.com/DTS_In_Consumer_P...nnections.aspx
    Thanks for the help. I have another question.

    Before I run out and buy the extra cable, I'm wondering why it is that when I select TRUEHD from the DVD menu, the sound actually changes even though I'm only running a fiber optic cable. So I'm not getting the true uncompressed sound - so then why does the sound change somewhat when i select it?

    Just curious!

  4. #4
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Thanks for the help. I have another question.

    Before I run out and buy the extra cable, I'm wondering why it is that when I select TRUEHD from the DVD menu, the sound actually changes even though I'm only running a fiber optic cable. So I'm not getting the true uncompressed sound - so then why does the sound change somewhat when i select it?

    Just curious!
    This is because standard Dolby Digital & DTS have a higher bitrate on BR disc vs DVD. Pretty decent step in sound improvement but it's not HD audio.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    This is because standard Dolby Digital & DTS have a higher bitrate on BR disc vs DVD. Pretty decent step in sound improvement but it's not HD audio.
    Ok that makes sense now. How much better does a soundtrack sound in TRUE HD? Is it significantly audible? Or is it only something you'll hear with $10,000 amps

  6. #6
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Ok that makes sense now. How much better does a soundtrack sound in TRUE HD? Is it significantly audible? Or is it only something you'll hear with $10,000 amps
    I can comment on my modest system and the improvement was easily noticed. All I can say is that it sounds really freakin' good. I remember the first couple of movies I watched kept making me turn my head thinking someone was in my kitchen or something. It was pretty funny.

    If you've invested in a BR player & AVR, may as well drop another $20 on an HDMI cable.

    Now if someone had a $99 HTIB system from Walmart, I'd probably tell them to invest in better gear instead of HD audio

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    I can comment on my modest system and the improvement was easily noticed. All I can say is that it sounds really freakin' good. I remember the first couple of movies I watched kept making me turn my head thinking someone was in my kitchen or something. It was pretty funny.

    If you've invested in a BR player & AVR, may as well drop another $20 on an HDMI cable.

    Now if someone had a $99 HTIB system from Walmart, I'd probably tell them to invest in better gear instead of HD audio
    Gotcha sounds good and thanks for the tips! Will the video quality suffer at all when passing an HDMI cable through my RXV1800?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Gotcha sounds good and thanks for the tips! Will the video quality suffer at all when passing an HDMI cable through my RXV1800?
    The digital signal passes through untouched so it's gonna be a sweet pic. I ran HDMI directly to my display for a bit and I can't see any differences. But I'm not a videophile. To me, a good picture is a good picture.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Ok that makes sense now. How much better does a soundtrack sound in TRUE HD? Is it significantly audible? Or is it only something you'll hear with $10,000 amps
    i'd say it's significant, even on modest equipment
    Home Theatre:
    50" Panasonic TH-50PZ77
    Denon AVR-3808CI
    B&W 603 S3
    B&W LCR600 S3
    Paradigm Cinema ADP v.3
    SVS PB12-NSD
    Xbox 360 250GB
    Playstation 3 60GB
    Explorer 8300HD PVR 320GB
    Netgear ReadyNAS NV+ 8TB
    Harmony One

    2-Channel:
    Paradigm Studio 20 v.5
    NAD C320BEE
    NAD C521BEE

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by f0rge
    i'd say it's significant, even on modest equipment
    I got it all hooked up tonight, and I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but it seems like a quieter soundtrack than the regular dolby digital one. I have to turn my receiver's volume up 3 or 4 dB from where I normally keep it.

    This is odd seeing as how one poster described TRUEHD as being louder and more explosive... i find it's the opposite.

  11. #11
    way up in Canada eh f0rge's Avatar
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    hmmm that's weird, it's louder on my setup than standard dolby digital.

    but that shouldn't really be a problem, i have to vary my volume a lot depending on the source
    Home Theatre:
    50" Panasonic TH-50PZ77
    Denon AVR-3808CI
    B&W 603 S3
    B&W LCR600 S3
    Paradigm Cinema ADP v.3
    SVS PB12-NSD
    Xbox 360 250GB
    Playstation 3 60GB
    Explorer 8300HD PVR 320GB
    Netgear ReadyNAS NV+ 8TB
    Harmony One

    2-Channel:
    Paradigm Studio 20 v.5
    NAD C320BEE
    NAD C521BEE

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by f0rge
    hmmm that's weird, it's louder on my setup than standard dolby digital.

    but that shouldn't really be a problem, i have to vary my volume a lot depending on the source
    I've done a little digging and I've come across a few people who also feel that True HD sounds "weak" in a sense. I understand this has to do with a wider dynamic range and all but at times you can barely hear the dialogue - where on the DD soundtrack it's crystal clear.

    All in all I found the TrueHD soundtrack a lot less enjoyable.

    Also I have a question. The HDMI audio out setting on my BD player can either be set to "auto" or "PCM" - auto is what makes "trueHD" light up on my amp, but what exactly is PCM giving me when I select that instead of auto?

  13. #13
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    I got it all hooked up tonight, and I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but it seems like a quieter soundtrack than the regular dolby digital one. I have to turn my receiver's volume up 3 or 4 dB from where I normally keep it.

    This is odd seeing as how one poster described TRUEHD as being louder and more explosive... i find it's the opposite.
    Your definitely not the first person to say this. "Louder" isn't always better though. I think people hook up there HD gear expecting to get blown out the water with this monstrous loud sound(speaking of monsters, you gotta give Cloverfield a listen...excellent TrueHD track. Crank that up then tell me what you think of TrueHD) , but they're greeted with greater detail, accuracy and dynamic range. Something they're not use to. I remember the first time I got a quality sub, I wasn't too thrilled about the sound because I was use to loud crap slapping me in the face. The smooth accurate, detailed bass just didn't sound right at first. Now I love my sub and could never go back to listening that way again.

    Anyways, here's a very excellent post explaining why the HD audio formats are quieter than standard DD/DTS. I gets a little deep but is broken down pretty nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora@hidefdigest
    Ok, the answer is twofold. I'm going to use PCM as a generic term for PCM, TrueHD, and DTS-HD MA. When decoded, DTS-HD MA and TrueHD end up the same as the PCM master, and most of what I say applies only to PCM. As lossless encoded formats, TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are really just a way to pack PCM to make it take up less space.

    First, Dolby and DTS tracks often have their dynamic range compressed to compensate for stuff they're taking out. Dynamic range (measured in dB) is the difference in loudness between the highest sounds and the lowest ones. A small dynamic range means that everything is the same loudness, which means that you're just whacked with a wall of sound with no subtlety or distinct tones. A large dynamic range means that more sounds are present, and you can hear more distinct tones--the wince of a trumpet, the force of the finger on a piano key, etc.

    Think of it like a gourmet dinner that has mashed potatoes, beef, pees, and jello. If you eat each one individually, you taste 4 separate things. If you just mash the food all together (or put the jello next to the potatoes), everything blends, and when you take a taste of the resultant amalgamation, you don't taste everything individually, which is too bad if the potatoes or beef is especially good. The original flavors are lost, and you just have a plate of food, not a fine dinner.

    This squeezing of the dynamic range is common to all forms of compressed sound, and is actually necessary. Nature allows a very high dynamic range, but they can't encode everything with a small and finite number of codes. So what they do is compress the dynamic range to fit into the smaller window that the codec allows.

    PCM also has a limit on its dynamic range as well, but because of the way PCM is done, it is directly determined by the number of bits--96 dB for 16 bit audio, 144 dB for 24 bits (theoretical, circuits don't allow it to go that high). The other lossy codecs don't work that way. You can't get anything useful about the dynamic range out of their "bit depth," which is a misnomer anyway. A "24 bit Dolby Digital" track just means that the original master was 24 bits, since Dolby Digital doesn't have a fixed number of bits per sample, and is a dynamically allocated storage format (channels only get bits when they need it).

    When you compress the dynamic range, the overall result is louder sound.

    One of them has its dynamic squeezed like an elephant had sat on it. There's no clarity or distinctness in the tones. The other is not as compressed, and you can hear the individual guitar strings resonating and faint crashes of the cymbals.

    So why does this happen? Rather than bring the loud sounds down to the quiet ones, they bring the quiet ones up to the loud ones, so the result is that everything in the soundfield is as loud as the loudest thing there. Think of it as a room full of people talking, with one person being a lot louder than the others. Rather than get that one person to talk quieter, everyone else just shouts as well.

    That's what you have there, and what you get (not as extreme, of course) with compressed audio. Everything is just in your face.

    In addition, PCM tracks are recorded with more headroom than compressed music. Headroom is the amount of space you allow for peaks in volume.

    Imagine that you are going to take a truck to pick up some boxes, but don't know ahead of time how many you're going to have. You have some boxes you need to take from your starting point, where you also need to pick a truck. You could take a truck that fits only the boxes you have initially, but then if you get more than that on your second stop, you're in trouble. What you would do is choose a truck that holds far more boxes than you have now, so that when you get to your second stop, you know that you'll have enough room to transport them all.

    That's what headroom is. I leave my quiet tones quiet so that when the volume really spikes up, I can fit it all within the range PCM allows without clipping.

    Clipping is when the maximum value allowed by your specification is exceeded. If you look at a PCM file, it's nothing more than a bunch of numbers between -1 and 1 (when representing in continuous domain, you have 2^(N-1) values above and below zero, where N is the number of bits. Take the midpoint of 2^N, and make that 0, and sprinkle the higher numbers below 0 and the rest above). If I have a value that ends up as 1.03, I can't write that, so I write the biggest thing I can, which is 1. However, I lose information in that process. In this case, we say that the audio is clipped

    When you apply dynamic range compression to a PCM track, this is what happens--the loudest tones try to get louder, but can't, so they just end up a bunch of ones. The quiet ones had room to come up, so they do.

    An example. Before compression, say I had like
    0.024
    0.25
    0.23215
    0.356
    0.565
    0.67
    0.89
    0.87
    0.82

    (where these are the values for a potion of one second of sound, which contains usually 48000 values, if the sampling rate is 48 kHz).

    If I apply a volume boost, I end up with something like
    0.224
    0.45
    0.43215
    0.556
    0.765
    0.87
    1.09
    1.07
    1.02

    But PCM can't store a value higher than 1, so it's written to the file as
    0.224
    0.45
    0.43215
    0.556
    0.765
    0.87
    1
    1
    1

    The last three values have been clipped. Note that a volume boost ends up causing dynamic range compression, in the end, due to the limitations of PCM.

    I don't want to try to record the result after the volume boost, since I end up with clipped sound. It is a better option to record my first set of numbers. That results in an overall quieter track than the second one, since the volume isn't as loud. This is what we mean by PCM having more "headroom"--that first value of 0.024 is awfully small, but we needed to leave it at that so that we'll be able to write the larger values without clipping.

    So I hope that explains why PCM/TrueHD/DTS-HD MA tracks sound "quieter." You're actually getting much better sound, and the quietness as compared to Dolby Digital and legacy DTS is a good thing, not a bad one. That's why they invented the volume knob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    Your definitely not the first person to say this. "Louder" isn't always better though. I think people hook up there HD gear expecting to get blown out the water with this monstrous loud sound(speaking of monsters, you gotta give Cloverfield a listen...excellent TrueHD track. Crank that up then tell me what you think of TrueHD) , but they're greeted with greater detail, accuracy and dynamic range. Something they're not use to. I remember the first time I got a quality sub, I wasn't too thrilled about the sound because I was use to loud crap slapping me in the face. The smooth accurate, detailed bass just didn't sound right at first. Now I love my sub and could never go back to listening that way again...
    Go read my post in the PS3 Discussion thread. Gave that alien new meaning!!! It was AWESOME!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    Your definitely not the first person to say this. "Louder" isn't always better though. I think people hook up there HD gear expecting to get blown out the water with this monstrous loud sound(speaking of monsters, you gotta give Cloverfield a listen...excellent TrueHD track. Crank that up then tell me what you think of TrueHD) , but they're greeted with greater detail, accuracy and dynamic range. Something they're not use to. I remember the first time I got a quality sub, I wasn't too thrilled about the sound because I was use to loud crap slapping me in the face. The smooth accurate, detailed bass just didn't sound right at first. Now I love my sub and could never go back to listening that way again.

    Anyways, here's a very excellent post explaining why the HD audio formats are quieter than standard DD/DTS. I gets a little deep but is broken down pretty nice.
    I actually found that same thread! It's very informative - but at the end of the day TrueHD just isn't sounding as good as DD. I find the fact that I can barely hear dialogue to be really annoying. Then I have to crank up the volume to a coma-inducing level to hear what people are saying and then BANG some loud noise rattles my speakers out of nowhere.

    Feels like a step down to me. I realize what it is and why. Just a personal preference perhaps.

    Oh and do you know the difference between PCM and Auto?
    The HDMI audio out setting on my BD player can either be set to "auto" or "PCM" - auto is what makes "trueHD" light up on my amp, but what exactly is PCM giving me when I select that instead of auto?

    I don't really understand the difference.

  16. #16
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    I actually found that same thread! It's very informative - but at the end of the day TrueHD just isn't sounding as good as DD. I find the fact that I can barely hear dialogue to be really annoying. Then I have to crank up the volume to a coma-inducing level to hear what people are saying and then BANG some loud noise rattles my speakers out of nowhere.
    Could be the recording. I've heard plenty of DVD's that are notorious for that. Lady in the Water comes to mind. Does it on the DVD & BR version

    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Feels like a step down to me. I realize what it is and why. Just a personal preference perhaps.
    I'd listen to a few more tracks before throwing it completely out the window. If you still don't like it, I'll take it off your hands and I'm willing to pay for the shipping

    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Oh and do you know the difference between PCM and Auto?
    The HDMI audio out setting on my BD player can either be set to "auto" or "PCM" - auto is what makes "trueHD" light up on my amp, but what exactly is PCM giving me when I select that instead of auto?

    I don't really understand the difference.
    Auto has your player set to bitstream everything to your AVR for decoding.

    PCM has your player set to decode everything internally and send the decoded signal to your AVR via analog out or HDMI v1.1 or up. Basically, a person with an older AVR would set the player to PCM and use the analog outs or older version of HDMI.

    Since you have a newer AVR, your cool using auto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    Could be the recording. I've heard plenty of DVD's that are notorious for that. Lady in the Water comes to mind. Does it on the DVD & BR version



    I'd listen to a few more tracks before throwing it completely out the window. If you still don't like it, I'll take it off your hands and I'm willing to pay for the shipping



    Auto has your player set to bitstream everything to your AVR for decoding.

    PCM has your player set to decode everything internally and send the decoded signal to your AVR via analog out or HDMI v1.1 or up. Basically, a person with an older AVR would set the player to PCM and use the analog outs or older version of HDMI.

    Since you have a newer AVR, your cool using auto.
    Thanks for the help. What are some other really good TrueHD soundtracks I can check out? "Ill try to grab cloverfield tonight. Any others you can suggest?

  18. #18
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Thanks for the help. What are some other really good TrueHD soundtracks I can check out? "Ill try to grab cloverfield tonight. Any others you can suggest?
    Well your not limited to just TrueHD. Your player can handle MPCM as well. Alot of Disney titles are PCM and most are high quality. Try Pirates or even their animation is really good. I was shocked at how good Enchanted looked and sounded. Ratatouille & Cars are reference matl.

    Sony has alot of PCM & TrueHD titles. Spiderman is good. You can also try Casino Royale, Apocalypto, Black Hawk Down, Batman Begins.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    Well your not limited to just TrueHD. Your player can handle MPCM as well. Alot of Disney titles are PCM and most are high quality. Try Pirates or even their animation is really good. I was shocked at how good Enchanted looked and sounded. Ratatouille & Cars are reference matl.

    Sony has alot of PCM & TrueHD titles. Spiderman is good. You can also try Casino Royale, Apocalypto, Black Hawk Down, Batman Begins.
    I bought Cloverfield and the TrueHD soundtrack on this is better than the one on Batman Begins. But it still seems "off" to me... dialogue is TOO low IMO. It's supposed to sound like real life and yet the voices sound much quieter than people do when they're talking in front of you...

    i dunno maybe I just have to retrain my ears

  20. #20
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Did you use the Yammie mic to calibrate your system (levels, distances)?

    Do you have the EQ engaged?

    Do you own a SPL meter to check your levels?

    Perhaps your center is set a couple db lower than the rest of your system.

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    I calibrated, didn't have much of an effect on the overall sound...

    No EQ, just the yammies decoder and the bitstream signal.

    I don't own a meter. The center channel is set at .5dB so maybe I need to up the volume on that a little and save it to a setting I use when i watch TrueHD soundtracks?

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    Oh and also the Cloverfield TrueHD soundtrack is the ONLY english soundtrack on the disc... can we expect to see more and more bluray discs being released without a regular DD track?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thxpaul
    Oh and also the Cloverfield TrueHD soundtrack is the ONLY english soundtrack on the disc... can we expect to see more and more bluray discs being released without a regular DD track?
    You'll still get DD. TrueHD has a "core" DD track that is compatible with standard AVRs.

    I'm not sure how your center is positioned, but you want it to be as close to ear level as possible. I know this isn't always practical because this is where most of us put our TV, so you can try slightly tilting your center toward the sweet spot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    You'll still get DD. TrueHD has a "core" DD track that is compatible with standard AVRs.

    I'm not sure how your center is positioned, but you want it to be as close to ear level as possible. I know this isn't always practical because this is where most of us put our TV, so you can try slightly tilting your center toward the sweet spot.
    I see. Is there any way to access that "core" DD track if I'm connected through my AVR via HDMI?

    A setting on my player perhaps? Or the receiver?

    Because like... if I can select between the two on the disc menu then it's fine. But if there's only TrueHD then my AVR defaults to this format obviously.

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    38 posts... 38 questions. You DO have an owners manual right?

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