Circuit City Vs. Best Buy

[paul_pci]

All things being equal you might be right but all things are not equal when it comes to the retail availability of audio equipment. Let me begin with the example of the bookstore. I personally do not lament the demise of the independent bookstore because there is nothing that I can find at an independent bookstore that I cannot find at a megabookstore, but that is precisely NOT the case for audio equipment. Take the recent closings of the Good Guys stores. Now where are we to buy the mid-level Denon and Yamaha receivers? Not at BB or CC because they don't stock them. And not everybody buys their equipment from ebay. We can now only find them at Ken Kranes or Shelley's or other high end shops (I apologize for the So. Cal bias) that you don't care if they don't go outta business. Come on, you should know the equipment at the big box stores is laughable to people such as us and if you don't care for the demise of these indepedent stores, then where are we all going to purchase our equipment from?

I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough! First off, as previously said, if you know what you're buying ahead of time, a place like Best Buy is fine because you're not relying on a semi retarded teenager for help. As far as people with knowledge in independent stores, the ones who are, work at high end stores that aren't in competition with chain stores anyway, because chain stores don't carry their items. Places like Best Buy could still stay in business & make just as much money if not more, if they hired compotent people who'd they give commissions too & higher salaries. The offset is more people would shop at these stores because of customer service. Anyway, my experience as I said at Circuit City has been excellent in regards to customer service & Best Buy I try to avoid like the plague as it is not an enjoyable experience for me. The people at Circuit City I've noticed also tend to be older as opposed to the slobbering teenagers at Best Buy.

"If the American consumer were willing to pay for service (something I'm willing to do, and a few here at AR seem willing to do likewise), all the independent retailers CC and BB put out of business would still be around. But they're not. The worst thing the consumer does is to shop a dealer who does have knowledgeable sales help, question the s**t out of the people there, and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. What's wrong with this picture?

[/QUOTE]

[shokhead]

I thought i heard comp-usa was going to start having Denon?

[EdwardGein]

You misunderstood my comments They were referring to generic independent stores that stock the same merchandise as Best Buy & Circuit City, not places like Good Guys or even Magnolia that carry mid level stock or better such as Denon. My attitude is if these stores carry the same merchandise as Circuit City & Best Buy but their prices are higher, I'm not losing sleep if they go out of business. Independent stores like Good Guys are not facing competition from bigger chains because they're selling different & high end product.

[GMichael]

You should have punched him in the nose!

[/I]

I was in shock at first. But then I laughed and let him show me how great the Bose system was. Then I walked out and took my money with me.

[Woochifer]

All things being equal you might be right but all things are not equal when it comes to the retail availability of audio equipment. Let me begin with the example of the bookstore. I personally do not lament the demise of the independent bookstore because there is nothing that I can find at an independent bookstore that I cannot find at a megabookstore, but that is precisely NOT the case for audio equipment. Take the recent closings of the Good Guys stores. Now where are we to buy the mid-level Denon and Yamaha receivers? Not at BB or CC because they don't stock them. And not everybody buys their equipment from ebay. We can now only find them at Ken Kranes or Shelley's or other high end shops (I apologize for the So. Cal bias) that you don't care if they don't go outta business. Come on, you should know the equipment at the big box stores is laughable to people such as us and if you don't care for the demise of these indepedent stores, then where are we all going to purchase our equipment from?

With regard to the bookstore analogy, that greatly depends on the types of books that you're looking for. Having lived in San Francisco and West L.A., it seems to me that the independent stores are much likelier to stock titles from indie publishers and do a better with stocking titles from specific genres. Whenever I visit SoCal, I try to make it down to Hennessey + Ingalls because there's no other store around where I live that has the depth of knowledge that they do with art and architecture books. And it's not just new books that can be special ordered by other stores, that store also makes a point of maintaining an inventory of titles that might have gone out of print. And throughout SF, the local bookstores not only sell books, but host events and book clubs and are just part of the neighborhood in a way that can't be replicated by a big megastore. It's no different than music stores that carry the top sellers, but also specialize in certain genres and titles that you don't readily find at Sam Goody or Tower or Borders.

With audio stores, events like Good Guys' demise do create temporary holes in the market, but it doesn't take long for popular brands like Denon and Yamaha get picked up by other retailers. In the L.A. area, Denon was already sold through Magnolia and Tweeter stores before GG went under. And it looks like Yamaha is also at Tweeter. Plus, there are other independent stores around L.A. that aren't necessarily high end such as Hollytron, Superco Home Theater, Valley TV, and yes, Ken Crane's. The L.A. market is big enough and wealthy enough to not only support a lot of independent stores that stock home theater equipment and directly compete with the big box chains, but a large number of higher end stores as well. Just look at how many independent audio and home theater stores there are in Santa Monica alone!

But, I think the real struggle is in smaller and/or less affluent markets. Places like Fresno and Bakersfield are more than large enough to support multiple electronics stores. However, in those places, the market support is not enough to sustain more than one or two other audio/home theater stores once BB and CC take their share. In those areas, Good Guys was by and large the only place within 50+ miles to buy something higher end than whatever BB or CC carried. Once they went under, that created a huge hole in the market. An independent store can easily step into the breach and fill that market gap, but if another chain like Magnolia comes into the market and divides the market, then that store will not have enough customers to stay in business by itself.

I don't think that independent audio stores will ever go away, but with the attrition that I've seen in the Bay Area in recent years, shoppers in the future might have to travel further to find the items that they're looking for. One thing to consider is that a lot of the specialty audio brands grant their retailers territorial exclusivity, so if one retailer goes under, the other stores in that territory can then try to pick up the brands that the defunct store carried.

[emaidel]

I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough!

Not the most charitable opinion, but one you're entitled to nevertheless.

Nothing irked me more than having a customer pick my brain, week after week, on a particular piece of audio gear, only to realize later that this jerk bought it somewhere else for less. I made my living by selling equipment - not by explaining it for people to purchase that same equipment elsewhere from morons who know knothing at all about the product, or some mail-order place that simply posts a picture of an item, and provides a price. Service has its price, and it's most definitely not something a consumer "deserves" to use in one place, purely for the sake of taking advantage of it.

Recently, I was in an athletic shoe store, having been directed to this specific store by my podiatrist, as I needed a good pair of running shoes that would accomodate my arch supports needed due to a nasty case of plantar fasciitis. While I waited for a salesman, a young, male customer was trying on numerous pairs of shoes, and asking many, many questions about all of them while doing so. After completely wasting the salesperson's time for about 20 minutes, he left the store without buying anything. When I commented to the salesperson that that customer had a helluva nerve, the response was, "He's probably going to buy it online for less." so, it's not just the audio/video business where this crap takes place.

This is not "acceptable" behavior in my opinion, yet it's something many American consumers feel it's their "right" to do. For all who do this, all I can say is, "Shame on YOU!" It is also this particular mindset that has resulted in Wal-Mart being the largest retailer in the known universe. I flatly refuse to set foot in that place, but my "boycott" isn't having much effect. It's a matter of principle with me, and I think my principles are of a reasonably high order.

[edtyct]

Amen, emaidel. The protocol at high end salons was always the same: If we spend an hour or two showing, explaining, and recommending a product to you, the right thing for you to do is to buy that product from us. The problem is that the element of trust, which was always a little tenuous, has been further eroded by internet sales and big-box discounts. Aside from the injustice of it, it's also a sign of a dumbed-down culture in which the sound and sight bite (marketing and PR) have taken the place of genuine information (in audio/video, it may be regrettable; in politics, it's obscene--but that's another story). Hell, a good book can be written on this subject, so I'll shut down before I start trying to write it here. But I will say that selfishness appears to be part of the human inventory. If a cheaper mousetrap exists, people will find it (or if people are interested in a cheaper mousetrap, one will find its way to them). It's not always a bad thing. But scale this naked tendency to match the size of the market, and you can see why the trustworthy, knowledgeable people first see their salaries fall and then their jobs disappear. It would be foolish to deny the webstores and the megastores their place, but the world hasn't changed for the better when excellence, knowledge, and personal interaction have lost whatever value they once had in a mass-oriented consumer society.

[robert393]

I totally don't agree with your concept of it being wrong to shop for the cheapest item & if it has put independent stores out of business all I can say is tough!

Refer to post #10

Not the most charitable opinion, but one you're entitled to nevertheless.

Nothing irked me more than having a customer picking my brain, week after week, on a particular piece of audio gear, only to realize later that this jerk bought it somewhere else for less. I made my living by selling equipment - not by explaining it for people to purchase that same equipment elsewhere from morons who know knothing at all about the product, or some mail-order place that simply posts a picture of an item, and provides a price. Service has its price, and it's most definitely not something a consumer "deserves" to use in one place, purely for the sake of taking advantage of it..

Refer to Post # 10
Last week a guy came into my shop in full military gear, took my best sales person, picked his brain for 2 hrs on what audio products, why those particular products, and how to install those products into his car, and why to install them in that manner. At the end of the 2hr question & answer session I came out of my office and asked the military man when he would like to schedule the install. He was very polite in telling me speciality shop prices were too high and he would never consider actually buying from me, but would use the info he had gathered to purchase online. I asked him why he even bothered coming in if he had full intentions of buying off the internet anyway. He said because the internet people knew nothing about the products and offered no support, and that we had a reputation as being the best shop in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. I told him he had just taken 2-hours from an employee thats pay is dependant upon his vast knowledge, his expertise, and his ability to generate sales from those years of knowledge and expertise. He then became indignant and responded "people come into my office (at base) all the time and ask questions, I still have to answer them, even though that's not what I'm paid to do". I just shook my head and tried to realize this guy is probably not the "sharpest-tool-in-the-shed".

People need to realize that knowledge, experience, expertise, and support come with a price and stop contibuting to the ever-expanding "dumb-down" of our society. What that military man did is considered theft in my book. As he left, I told him that too. Wonder where he will go next time he needs expert advice on his car audio....BB/CC?

Robert

[Defshep]

As far as I know, Circuit City no longer gives employees commission sales...
Who's the best? Whoever has the lowest price on what you need. I like BB for their selection, because my local CC is in desperate need of an upgrade. Unfortunately, or maybe this is a good thing, we pretty much need to do our own research nowadays when making a decision on a purchase. I've learned alot more talking to you folks than I ever did from a BB or CC "knowledgable associate"!

[slbenz]

My local Best Buy has a Magnolia Audio Video in the store. If I include the Magnolia, then I would say Best Buy wins because Magnolia had a higher level of selection, much more informative sales people and excellent customer service when compared to Best Buy proper and my local Circuit City. If I had to just compare the staff for knowledge and courtesy between CC and BB, CC would win in my area. Unfortunately, my local CC is smaller and fewer items to select than BB. Overall, I shop more at BB because of the greater selection and try not to utilize the staff their to answer my questions. I try to be a more self-sufficient shopper these days. Someone else in this thread mentioned Fry's, don't even get me going there. No help, no knowledge, poor selection and not in stock.

Slbenz

[EdwardGein]

I totally agree with you its totally immoral to pick a salespersons brain for say 30 minutes or more if you don't have any intention to buy from the store & even more so to tell the salesperson you had no intention to buy from the store in the first place. My thinking is that is probably a fluke situation. On the other hand, I've had experiences going into high end stores & taking up say 45 minutes of a salespersons time & not finding anything I like enough to purchase even though he's kind of looking at me like I'm the schmuck. For that my conscience is clear. Usually if something looks promising, I'll ask for the salespersons card & if nothing I research is significantly higher, say no more then $25 if its local or $100 if I have to order online, I'll buy at the higher rate from the salesperson. But if I find its significantly cheaper, I'm not into charity.

[thekid]

Well as far as the BB or CC debate goes I have had success at both of them. In my area the specialty stores do not exactly offer the high end audio equipment I see mentioned here but their prices certainly are high end. As far as BB/CC It all depends on what I am looking since there is certain equipment brands specific to each.

The megastore vs specialty store debate is one that for good or bad will be settled by the marketplace. In an era of flat or depressed wages the megastores seem to have the upper hand because they can offer price advantages the smaller dealer cannot match and while service is usually what will keep a customer, it is not usually what most people are willing to part with a few extra dollars to get. Megastores offer a minimum of service during the sale/selection process and emphasize service when there is a problem after the sale.

One of my biggest issue with megastores is when they go out of business and they become white elephants that can not be easily be reffitted for other uses. The death of the megastore may come when communities stop giving them building permits or at least severly restrict their size. For the specialty store the saving grace may be the e-market where they may be able to compete at a price advantage over the brick and mortar giants.

[emaidel]

[QUOTE=thekid]

One of my biggest issue with megastores is when they go out of business and they become white elephants that can not be easily be reffitted for other uses. QUOTE]

Good point: what in the world are we going to do with all those Wal-Mart mega-buildings when that chain ultimately goes under (which, in my opinion, can't happen soon enough)?

[emaidel]

People need to realize that knowledge, experience, expertise, and support come with a price and stop contibuting to the ever-expanding "dumb-down" of our society. What that military man did is considered theft in my book. As he left, I told him that too. Wonder where he will go next time he needs expert advice on his car audio....BB/CC?

Robert

I couldn't agree with you more.

I once had a customer in the 70's pick my brain week after week about the Dynaco A-25 loudspeaker. There wasn't really that much to explain, other than the speaker needed a resonable amount of power, as it wasn't particularly efficient, and that we, at Lafayette Radio, routinely sold them for $79.95 each, and that that was a fair price.

This moron had me compare the A-25 to just about every other speaker we had in stock, until one day he came in asking about a new receiver since the one he had couldn't power up the A-25's he had just recently purchased elsewhere. He even had the audacity to ask me how to properly connect them, and basically, just how to use them. I walked away from him, and never bothered to answer another of his questions. Eventually, though it seemed to take months, he never came back. Maybe, just maybe, he got the message.

[thekid]

[QUOTE=emaidel]

One of my biggest issue with megastores is when they go out of business and they become white elephants that can not be easily be reffitted for other uses. QUOTE]

Good point: what in the world are we going to do with all those Wal-Mart mega-buildings when that chain ultimately goes under (which, in my opinion, can't happen soon enough)?

E-

I am afraid in a world economy that is based on chasing the lowest labor costs from developing country to developing country their will always be a source for cheap goods until we have gone the complete circuit. This model will always allow the megastores to leverage price over service. Until people demand service and are willing to pay for it speaciality stores are going to have a tough go. Call it the "dumbing down" effect if you want but price has almost been the main driver except when it comes to coffee where we some how have accepted it as perfectly normal to pay $5 for double mocha whatever

[jimmymagick]

The one--and only one--thing BB has going for it is that they have eliminated rebates. You get the sale price at the checkout counter.

That being said, I do like CC's website for research on consumer products. For what it's worth, it's good to see how their customers have rated products--especially when they give it a highly negative rating.

[elcoolmagnifico]

Hey, everyone. I am new to the site. Please hear me out.

I am a supervisor for a Best Buy HT and soon to be a Magnolia Sup. I just wanted to let you know that there are a few of us out there in the "box stores" that really would like to give customers a great experience. I drill my guys every day on product knowledge and how to ask the right questions to get the customer everything they need.

Although I am not perfect, I do bust my @$$ every day to not only make money for my company, but help out our clients. In our defense, we are handcuffed a bit by our talent pool. I have managers over my head that insist on hiring the "hot, stupid chick" or the "drunk frat kid". All I can do is ride those employees until I can ship them off to pimp iPods or car stereos.

I'm not defending BB as a whole or even excusing myself. I am just making it clear that some of us care. The only people that I put the screws to are people who try and use my well-trained staff to get the knowledge and then go over to ABT or Joe's Tube Shack and geta plasma for cost. Those are the scum-of-the-earth that always come back crying that their half-retarded brother couldn't install everything. For them... I double my install rates because "we have to uninstall Bubba's mess".

Sorry, but the first timer had to rant even though I can feel your pain. Thanks for listening.

Price hunters can eat me,

El Cool Magnifico

[shokhead]

Give us an example of what you say to drill your guys?

[Resident Loser]

...well in advance, if either store has it and offers a good price I walk in and say "I want that", pay for it and done deal...I hardly need barely post-pubescent, high-schoolers giving me their expertise...

Walked into CC while researching a mini-system (Onkyo's MC35TECH...quite good BTW), was approached and told the salesman the speakers were out-of-phase and asked if he could rewire them...he looked at me like I was from another planet and grudgingly pulled the dimunitive bookshelf speakers out and guess what? Out-of-phase...totally dumbfounded he was...

I do my research quietly, take up no one's time but mine and have enough experience to formulate my own opinion...

jimHJJ(...ultimately, a store is simply a place to buy things...now more than ever...)

P.S. Had high hopes for Magnolia...visited my local BB/Magnolia location...what a disappointment...tons of big screens, coupla' dozen Tivoli radios and one pair of smallish MLs...where's all the good stuff?...

[elcoolmagnifico]

I was asked how I "drill" my guys.

My employees are trained first on the basics. They have to know how a preamp and amp work. They have to know how DLP, LCD, LCoS, and plasma work. Things like that are the foundation of a good salesperson.

Once they have explained how everything works to my satisfaction, then I train them on how to sell. I have been in sales for a long period of time and I feel I have a wealth of know-how to give these guys. 8 out of 10 customers that blow off my guys and say they know everything end up coming to my guys for some answers. I tell my guys that people need their space respected, but if someone's in the department for an hour without checking out... they likely need a hand and can't get over themsleves long enough to ask for help.

As far as these "mom and pop" stores that people seem to pine for, have you actually been to them? I secret shop every CE retailer within miles of us. Half of the little guys don't know anything more than we do about the product, and none of them have anything in stock... ever. Sometimes it takes weeks for them to get in a plasma that I have sitting in topstock. I know that that's partially our fault, but that's how free enterprise works.

I'm sorry that I'm long-winded again, but I wanted to be clear that these fantastic little stores are far too hyped. If you look hard enough there will be a HT department in a big store that can help you out. For those of you who go in and know everything about everything (most of you seem to feel that way), why even bother with us? Just go to an online clearance bonanza site and pay 2% above cost. Those sites are very reputable (wink).

Keep hope alive... and consider Vienna Acoustic Mozarts... I'm in love with mine.

El Cool Magnifico

[shokhead]

So ya think we are better off paying for the overpriced A/V in CC? I can tell you i am low man around here knowing about this stuff and the people that are in the BB and CC by me dont even know about DVD-A,SACD or DualDisc.Clueless. Surprised?

[markw]

First off, the only way to deal with these two stores is to know what you want before going in. Don't ask any questions.

Second, once that's settled, simply go for the one with the better price.

Finally, if someone reads this forum and still has to depend on their sales staff for their info, well, there's not much more I can say ...

[Woochifer]

P.S. Had high hopes for Magnolia...visited my local BB/Magnolia location...what a disappointment...tons of big screens, coupla' dozen Tivoli radios and one pair of smallish MLs...where's all the good stuff?...

Uh, did you venture into all of the demo rooms? The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores around here put the Martin Logan Montage, Fresco, and Clarity models (along with some of the on-wall speakers from other companies) in one room, while the other demo room has the Def Tech, Boston, M&K, and Vienna speakers.

Otherwise, if you want to see some of Magnolia's other product lines, like Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Primare, B&K, Pro-ject, and the higher line Martin Logans, you have to visit the standalone Magnolia Audio Video locations, which for the time being are only on the left coast. The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores only carry a limited selection of the full lineup at the standalone Magnolia Audio Video stores and are not aimed at two-channel enthusiasts. As implied in the name, their product selection serves the home theater market.

[GMichael]

Uh, did you venture into all of the demo rooms? The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores around here put the Martin Logan Montage, Fresco, and Clarity models (along with some of the on-wall speakers from other companies) in one room, while the other demo room has the Def Tech, Boston, M&K, and Vienna speakers.

Otherwise, if you want to see some of Magnolia's other product lines, like Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Primare, B&K, Pro-ject, and the higher line Martin Logans, you have to visit the standalone Magnolia Audio Video locations, which for the time being are only on the left coast. The Magnolia Home Theater mini-stores only carry a limited selection and are not aimed at two-channel enthusiasts, as implied in the name, their product selection serves the home theater market.

The two Magnolia rooms I have seen here on the right coast have been pretty small. Maybe they will grow with time. The smallish ML's were the top of the line from what I saw. Most of the BB's in this area don't even have a Magnolia section yet. We must not rate.

[Woochifer]

Hey, everyone. I am new to the site. Please hear me out.

I am a supervisor for a Best Buy HT and soon to be a Magnolia Sup. I just wanted to let you know that there are a few of us out there in the "box stores" that really would like to give customers a great experience. I drill my guys every day on product knowledge and how to ask the right questions to get the customer everything they need.

Although I am not perfect, I do bust my @$$ every day to not only make money for my company, but help out our clients. In our defense, we are handcuffed a bit by our talent pool. I have managers over my head that insist on hiring the "hot, stupid chick" or the "drunk frat kid". All I can do is ride those employees until I can ship them off to pimp iPods or car stereos.

I'm not defending BB as a whole or even excusing myself. I am just making it clear that some of us care. The only people that I put the screws to are people who try and use my well-trained staff to get the knowledge and then go over to ABT or Joe's Tube Shack and geta plasma for cost. Those are the scum-of-the-earth that always come back crying that their half-retarded brother couldn't install everything. For them... I double my install rates because "we have to uninstall Bubba's mess".

Sorry, but the first timer had to rant even though I can feel your pain. Thanks for listening.

Price hunters can eat me,

El Cool Magnifico

Welcome to the site. Yep, your stories about the hiring practices are very similar to what I hear about managers at these audio/video stores. The Magnolia Home Theater stores in California were able to pick up some of the former Good Guys staffers, and it seems that their directives from above put more emphasis on finding qualified sales reps.