• 09-01-2004, 08:55 AM
    hershon
    1 Attachment(s)
    Can you copy a DVD Audio Disc?
    Can you copy a DVD-Audio disc through a DVD Burner to get the exact same sound and if so do you need to use DVD Shrink or can you just go from all at once copy to copy?
  • 09-01-2004, 09:32 AM
    kexodusc
    <a>No
  • 09-01-2004, 11:44 AM
    Just say no?
    Has anyone tried to copy/rip a DVD-A disk on their computer and burned this to a blank DVD? Aside from the copy protection, shouldn't it be possible?

    A blank DVD costs less than a dollar, so it's not like this experiment would break the bank. I'd try it myself, but I'm in the SACD camp.
  • 09-01-2004, 12:25 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nightflier
    Has anyone tried to copy/rip a DVD-A disk on their computer and burned this to a blank DVD? Aside from the copy protection, shouldn't it be possible?

    A blank DVD costs less than a dollar, so it's not like this experiment would break the bank. I'd try it myself, but I'm in the SACD camp.

    I don't think it's possible because the DVD-A has separate video and audio layers. The video layer is compatible with all DVD players, and contains the DD, PCM, and/or DTS tracks. The audio layer is what's copy protected, and even if you could figure out a way to extract the bits, I'm not sure whether blank DVD media can be read as a DVD-A by the players, just as a lot of older CD players cannot read CD-Rs. On a related topic, how do DVD burners deal with dual-layered discs given that dual-layered burners are only now getting introduced?
  • 09-01-2004, 12:28 PM
    kexodusc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nightflier
    Has anyone tried to copy/rip a DVD-A disk on their computer and burned this to a blank DVD? Aside from the copy protection, shouldn't it be possible?

    You would have to break the copy protection, and, find software that could read the disc. I'm sure it's possible, however at present time it's not, even for the computer smart consumer.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nightflier
    A blank DVD costs less than a dollar, so it's not like this experiment would break the bank. I'd try it myself, but I'm in the SACD camp.

    Yeah, I'm holding out a bit longer to see which format will emerge to the front, or at least for a more affordable competent player. For the most part, I've been more impressed with DVD-A's when compared to the same SACD, but there's lots of albums that are only available in SACD's, and a few SACD's that seem to be done better than the DVD-A counterpart. Not enough titles of either, though, yet.
  • 09-01-2004, 12:45 PM
    N. Abstentia
    I've copied quite a few DVD-A discs using DVD Shrink, no problem. HOWEVER, I will have to go back and make sure that the MLP track is indeed there. I tested them using a standard DVD player so I know the DD or DTS tracks are there, just not sure about the MLP tracks. In fact I rip the DVD-A discs that I don't own in any other from (like Tribe by Queensryche) so I can listen to them at work. Works just like a standard DVD.
  • 09-01-2004, 12:47 PM
    N. Abstentia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    On a related topic, how do DVD burners deal with dual-layered discs given that dual-layered burners are only now getting introduced?

    You lost me there...can you clarify that one?
  • 09-01-2004, 12:49 PM
    2+ disks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    ... how do DVD burners deal with dual-layered discs given that dual-layered burners are only now getting introduced?

    I've only done it a couple of times and dual-layer disk copying requires two or more disks to burn the data to.

    Back to the DVD-A, when I use the software it gives me options to leave out stuff I may not want, like the foreign language or stereo tracks. Wouldn't it be possible to do the same with DVD-A, so that the stereo track for example would not be written to the disk?
  • 09-01-2004, 12:58 PM
    N. Abstentia
    I haven't seen a DVD-Audio disc over 3 gigs yet, but I've only looked at maybe 5 of them so far.

    And I think I figured out what Woochifer was asking...like nightflier said you can drop off audio tracks (such as spanish and french) or extras and compress the rest down so a dual layer disc fits nicely on a single layer DVD-R.
  • 09-01-2004, 04:09 PM
    hershon
    NAbstentia I'm going to try to copy Fragile Tonight
    I hope this is one of the ones you copied. I'm going to try and copy this tonight and then playback and compare the sound.

    Why would anyone buy a seperate SACD player if they could have a DVD player that plays DVD-A?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    I haven't seen a DVD-Audio disc over 3 gigs yet, but I've only looked at maybe 5 of them so far.

    And I think I figured out what Woochifer was asking...like nightflier said you can drop off audio tracks (such as spanish and french) or extras and compress the rest down so a dual layer disc fits nicely on a single layer DVD-R.

  • 09-01-2004, 06:25 PM
    Why DVD-A
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hershon
    ...why would anyone buy a seperate SACD player if they could have a DVD player that plays DVD-A?

    Because SACD is simply better. Better sound, better technology, and a growing marketshare at the expense of the DVD-A's out there. Just look at the shrinking DVD-A section at just about every music store....

    OK, I'm just messing around. I have yet to buy a DVD-A (heard a few at friends' houses and they probably sound just as good). Just wanted to see if you all were still paying attention (don't flame me).
  • 09-01-2004, 08:18 PM
    hershon
    Actually you seem to be pretty accurate I've been to 3 chain stores in LA: Tower, Best Buy and Frys and the SCAD's outnumbered the DVD Adio's about 5 to 1! While I thought the Yes Fragile was great- they did a special remix for it, the Who's Tommy OK, I just bought 3 classical music CD's Holst's The Planets, Tchaicovsky's (spelling sorry) 1812 Overture and a classic collection of him, and I was quite dissapointed. I was expecting fireworks and visions of an entire orchestra in my room, and for my ears only- I'm not a classical music buff but I like the stuff I mentioned, it wasn't 1/4 as spectacular as Yes's fragile. Everything's on Ebay now!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nightflier
    Because SACD is simply better. Better sound, better technology, and a growing marketshare at the expense of the DVD-A's out there. Just look at the shrinking DVD-A section at just about every music store....

    OK, I'm just messing around. I have yet to buy a DVD-A (heard a few at friends' houses and they probably sound just as good). Just wanted to see if you all were still paying attention (don't flame me).

  • 09-02-2004, 03:50 AM
    N. Abstentia
    Well I checked the DVD-A's I copied (I copied them just to see if I could) and the answer to the question is yes and no. Yes you can copy a DVD-Audio disc. But no, it does not contain the high resolution tracks. The DD and DTS tracks copy over just fine, but not the actual high resolution MLP tracks.
  • 09-02-2004, 03:52 AM
    N. Abstentia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hershon
    Why would anyone buy a seperate SACD player if they could have a DVD player that plays DVD-A?

    Because a DVD-A only player will not play SACD's. I love most of the DVD-A's I have, but the SACD's I have by Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel, and Alison Krauss are just phenomenal and and NOT available on DVD-A.
  • 09-02-2004, 05:34 AM
    hershon
    One thing I've learned from this experience is never to buy a DVD-A again unless I see a very positive review or recommendation on it.

    How do you go about buying them (do you do this just on the strength of the original album, not a review or friend's recommendation for example?) and how do you decide whether to do SACD or DVD-A if both formats are available? I'm glad you recommended Yes's Fragile, if I hadn't heard that, I would have dismissed DVD-A (and by implication SACD) altogether based on the other stuff I bought.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    Because a DVD-A only player will not play SACD's. I love most of the DVD-A's I have, but the SACD's I have by Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel, and Alison Krauss are just phenomenal and and NOT available on DVD-A.

  • 09-02-2004, 05:56 AM
    N. Abstentia
    Sadly, it's just trial and error right now. Like you said, if you read a good review then it's most likely okay. Most of the ones I buy are because I liked the original CD, and in the case of the Bruce Dickinson and Porcupine Tree DVD-A's, I wish I never would have bought them. They are awful, even though the actual music on them is just outstanding. The moron who did the mix on those two (not the same person) totally ruined the experience.

    On the other hand, the DVD-A's by Yes, Queensryche, R.E.M., and The Doors are mind-blowing so it has nothing to do with the DVD-A format. It's all in who does the surround mix.

    If a title is available on both SACD and DVD-A...well I would look at DVD-A first because I like the lyrics, videos, photos, bios, and other extras, plus I can make a backup copy and play it on my computer at work. On the other hand if I don't have the regular CD I'll look at the SACD first if it's a hybrid so I can play it in the car or on the computer.
  • 09-02-2004, 06:05 AM
    kexodusc
    N. Absentia: I actually heard some of the Porcupine Tree DVD-A the other day...I thought it was, well, different, but certainly not as bad as your implying. The problem I have is that, for example, Wilson purposely wanted the guitars or whatever to emanate from the corners of the room, so it's not really reproducing the "band live in front of you" effect. Too much instruments flying at you from weird places, but in a way, I guess that's kind of artistic. Not my cup of tea tough.

    I feel this would have been more suited to the industrial/techno/ambience genres but, hey, it's artistic, so I give it 7 out of 10.

    BTW, isn't there not a 2-channel high rez track on that DVD-A? I only heard the weird artsy surround track.
  • 09-02-2004, 07:59 AM
    N. Abstentia
    Well it's not so much the stuff flying at you from everywhere that I don't like about the Porcupine Tree disc, it's the actual quality of it. The DVD-A loses every bit of punch that the CD has. The drums on the CD sound huge. The drums on the DVD-A sound like tin cans. Guitars on the CD (Strip the Soul is a good example) are huge, in your face. Being (somewhat) a guitar player, I can feel the guitar. On the DVD-A the guitars are thin and sound like they've been put through an echo chamber. Same with the bass guitar. Deep and punchy on the CD, annoying and mid-bassy on the DVD.

    Here it is summed up...the DVD-A does not gel. It sounds like 6 totally different things thrown together and they don't belong together.

    Now go listen to Fragile by Yes. Drums = huge, in your face..perfect. Guitars...although Steve Howe was never a crunchy chord player...are done right. Squire's bass is just where it should be, and it's deep. And this was recorded in 1971.
  • 09-02-2004, 10:14 AM
    kexodusc
    Hmmm, yeah I think we're talking about the same thing...the guitars and drums are way more concentrated and localized on the cd, they seem to lose some of the texture there.
    But from what I've read and heard, Wilson had all the input and direction in that, so maybe it was his grand vision...I'll have to listen to it a few more times, but I don't own it...say, if you don't want that thing, I could probably take it off your hands :)

    And doesn't it have a 2-channel track on it? Surely that would be dynamic and punchy? Don't make me eat all the things I've been saying to people that swear these don't sound any better than CD's.
  • 09-02-2004, 10:45 AM
    N. Abstentia
    I'm not sure about the hi-res 2 channel track, other than the downmix you get just by switching to 2 channel. I'll have to look. If I remember correctly though, the audio menu just cycles through the 96/24 and DTS tracks but I'm not sure.
  • 09-02-2004, 11:17 AM
    kexodusc
    Maybe I'm way off because I don't own a player or DVD-A's yet, but I thought most DVD-A's had a hi rez 2-channel track in addition to DD, DTS, and the the 96/24 PCM or whatever...am I wrong?
  • 09-02-2004, 11:29 AM
    Classical Music
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hershon
    I was expecting fireworks and visions of an entire orchestra in my room, and for my ears only- I'm not a classical music buff but I like the stuff I mentioned, it wasn't 1/4 as spectacular as Yes's fragile. Everything's on Ebay now!

    Hersh, I can't compare DVD-A to SACD, but what you are hearing on Yes's Fragile is typically more subtle in classical music. I've used classical music to audition equipment, especially speakers, for years and they provide a very good measure to my ears.

    I close my eyes and pretend I'm in a concert hall, sitting front-row center. Each time a new instrument starts to play in a symphony, I try to visualize exactly where in front or around me it is located. The better I can localize the instruments, the better the equipment or piece. I also look for the detail and clarity of the instrument and the richness of the bass (Cello and Organ are good measurements for that). Over the years I have collected several versions (CD and SACD) of the familiar recordings such as:

    - Beethoven's Symphony #5, fourth movement
    - Respighi's Pines of Rome, second movement
    - Alan Hovhaness, Storm on Mount Wildcat
    - Marcel Dupre, Magnificat VI: Gloria finale

    Among others, that I have come to know very well and know what to expect from. I just wouldn't be able to do this with rock, jazz, or pop music, although I do use other music to audition equipment. For example, on a James Taylor SACD, there are fewer instruments to pick out.

    I also have several versions of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, including the new one from Telarc with the real cannons (which is the one that's in most stores), and I must confess that apart from the cannon fire from my sub, it's not really that impressive. Sometimes I wonder if I get more kicks out of AC/DC's For Those About to Rock, but it's a whole different mindset for me to get into. One thing that SACD has helped me with quite a bit is setting up my surround system apropriately for movies. I find that surround music, particularly classical music, raises the bar a bit.

    Ironically, many rock artists, including Yes were deeply influenced by classical music.
  • 09-02-2004, 11:54 AM
    N. Abstentia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Maybe I'm way off because I don't own a player or DVD-A's yet, but I thought most DVD-A's had a hi rez 2-channel track in addition to DD, DTS, and the the 96/24 PCM or whatever...am I wrong?

    I know some of them do, I'm pretty sure Yes Fragile has MLP stereo. However Porcupine Tree does not have it. It contains the following tracks:
    MUSIC: Dolby Digital 5.1
    MUSIC: PCM Stereo
    MUSIC: DTS 5.1

    And Fragile has:
    MUSIC: Dolby Digital 5.1
    MUSIC: DTS 5.1
    MUSIC: MLP Surround
    MUSIC: MLP Stereo
  • 09-02-2004, 12:32 PM
    kexodusc
    Doh...Yeah, then you're at the mercy of artistic creativity and bad mixing I guess. To each their own...I too prefer the In Absentia CD, but maybe because that's what I'm use to. If there was a hi-rez 2 channel format it would seem to me to be a no-brainer, but them's the breaks.
  • 09-02-2004, 03:04 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Maybe I'm way off because I don't own a player or DVD-A's yet, but I thought most DVD-A's had a hi rez 2-channel track in addition to DD, DTS, and the the 96/24 PCM or whatever...am I wrong?

    The DVD-A is compatible with all players because they all include separate video and audio layers. The video layer is what can be read by any DVD player, and they typically contain at least a 5.1 DD track and another two-channel track, but the format for that depends on the disc. Some of them have a 2.0 DD track, while others include an uncompressed PCM track that can range from 44.1/16 CD resolution all the way up to 96/24 resolution.

    Keep in mind that 96/24 PCM is the SAME resolution as the channels on a 5.1 DVD-A track (two-channel DVD-A tracks can go up to 192/24 resolution). Because of copy protection and space concerns, most DVD-As only include the high res two-channel tracks (even if only encoded to 96/24 or lower resolution) on the audio layer. Even before the DVD-A format was finalized, the DVD format has always had provisions built in for 96/24 resolution audio on the video layer, and a few labels like Chesky and Classic Records have put out audio-only two-channel DVDs in 96/24 resolution. The major labels did not embrace this as an audio format because they wanted any high res format to have copy protection built in, which DVD-A includes.

    The DVD-As that Classic Records and Chesky put out DO include a 96/24 PCM track on the video layer, and the tracks that I've heard thus far sound very nice, and I don't own a DVD-A player yet either.