Pre/Pro and Amp Help

[jrcarter]

I hate to waste your guys' time, but I didn't know where else to look.

I used to have a cheaper (1K) Harmon/Kardon HTIB setup. Ice storm, power lines down, electricians, faulty repair job, 220 backfeeding through house...rendered most of my equipment dead or in rough shape.

So, no big deal. I planned my budget about the same as last and headed to Circuit City. The somewhat (nice guy) expert recommended the Denon 887 and the Denon $150 upscaling DVD player. So, went home and started to check reviews, etc. Everything seemed find until...

A friend pointed me towards the Outlaw website. I somewhat fell in love with the 990 and was mostly settled with the only concern of DVI. But once this door was openend the doubts started all coming with the dozens of other options.

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So, quick question is, (in this new price-range) I was considering the 990 ($1099) and one of the Outlaw amps...should I follow this line or look at something different?
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DVI vs HDMI does seem to be somewhat of an issue, and suprisingly the projector I am replacing my zapped one with (Panasonic PT-AX100U, $1500) has component/HDMI, not a DVI like many of the projectors. But I also consider that the whole HDMI issue is still in flux.

Sorry for a long intro, and any help is appreciated.

[Dusty Chalk]

I'm not sure I understand the question, so let me rephrase it, and you tell me if I got it right:

Outlaw -- get, or don't get? And what about DVI/HDMI?

Well, if you use the Outlaw just for audio, and hook the video directly to the television, then you don't need, right? Then yeah, do it. I hear an Outlaw all the time -- it's an excellent choice for that price range.

[nightflier]

I own the next model down, and a 7-channel amp. I have yet to find the same features in any pre-pro setup in that price range, but I will definitely will upgrade to something more high-end when I can. Some things I don't like:

- DVI with no HDMI on the horizon
- No HDMI up-conversion
- OSD doesn't work for anything higher than S-VGA

I think Denon & Marantz support all these and then some. That said, Outlaw has excellent support, both before & after the sale, and sound-wise the products are top notch. I just think that on the video side they have some work to do. And I don't agree with Dusty about not using the video switching in the pre/pro that negates half the reason for buying a pre/pro. The convenience of video switching shouldn't be hobbled by a lack of HDMI.

[jrcarter]

Thanks both for the info. Dusty, you got the question right...but I think if I settled for a Pre/Pro without HDMI, I'd use the DVI>HDMI adapters so I can at least use the system for switching.

If I were to pass on the Outlaw, I haven't the foggiest clue of where to begin in that price range.

Nightflier: do you find the seriously-crippled display an issue on the 970? And are you telling me that the OSD doesn't work on anything greater than 800x600? Also, where/what kind of 7-channel amp did you get?

[N. Abstentia]

I have the Outlaw 990 which I bought after about a year of research. If you pass on the 990, the only place to go is to the $3000 neighborhood to get similar features and quality.

The HDMI issue is a moot point to me, maybe once they decide what they are going to do with HDMI I might look into it but it's still such a moving target I hate to buy something now just to replace it when they get HDMI finalized. Plus like you said, you can get a $4 DVI/HDMI adapter.

[nightflier]

Thanks both for the info. Dusty, you got the question right...but I think if I settled for a Pre/Pro without HDMI, I'd use the DVI>HDMI adapters so I can at least use the system for switching.

If I were to pass on the Outlaw, I haven't the foggiest clue of where to begin in that price range.

Nightflier: do you find the seriously-crippled display an issue on the 970? And are you telling me that the OSD doesn't work on anything greater than 800x600? Also, where/what kind of 7-channel amp did you get?

At $1000-ish, there really isn't anything out there new. There are used units out there, and as long as you shop carefully, you could find a truly great deal. Check out B&K, they seem to offer great value (I have owned several of their 2-channel pieces with great results).

The video issues can be remedied, but it's not that elegant: you can used DVI-HDMI adapters, and I used a secondary 5" TV screen on the side table next to my easy chair to get to the OSD menus - but that's probably overkill for most people. Another simpler solution to the menus is if the source is off. So for example, if you want to get to the menus for your component-connected DVD player, you would access those on the receiver before turning the DVD player off. Of course, that makes it a trial-and-error chore to set sound options, but it is doable.

The crux of my issues with Outlaw is related to the fact that they are a smaller company, which also has its pluses, as pointed out above. But as a small company, they are not as quick to develop / adopt the latest technologies like HDMI. The lack of OSD on component and DVI sources has been solved by other companies already, but Outlaw won't update their components (or rather get their Chinese Manufacturers to do so) at the same pace as the larger companies. It's a trade-off with small companies, that some people are happier with than others.

I have the 7125 amp and it does an excellent job with my Axiom speakers setup. However, I am currently using an Adcom 5-channel 300W amp that just came back from Adcom service (it has a broken speaker post). It is a better amp, to be sure, but also at a much higher price point. Since I will be replacing my speakers with a recently acquired set of Vienna Webern speakers, I may keep the Adcom in place. I don't doubt that the Outlaw is up to the task, but I would feel better with the extra amps that the Adcom can provide. I haven't done an A/B comparison, so I can't say for sure, but when I do, I'll know more.

[jrcarter]

Well, just got the call from the insurance company (suprised they called on a Saturday) and it looks like I'm getting screwed (not such a good neighbor, after all).

So, with my budget significantly reduced, I feel like should get off the porch with the big boys and go play over at Circuit City forums or something. But, I'll ask one final question.

Looks like a toss up between the Outlaw 1070 or the Denon 887. Is this an easy choice? Should I be considering something else? I think I can live with the DVI over the HDMI that the Denon offers ...IF... the sound processing, analog bypass, etc is all superior on the Outlaw.

Thanks again for the help.

[jrcarter]

And another question to go along with all of this...

Q: Are upscaling dvd players really worth it?

I've read so much that goes back and forth between the two. As well, I don't seem myself as jumping on the BluRay or HDDVD bandwagon for a long time...so should I consider it, or should I pass?

Unless I get a clear cut answer from you folks, I was considering testing the Denon 557 and the 757 (but for the cost of the 757 I may as well spend the cash on the Xbox 360 HDDVD drive).

Any ideas? As always, thanks.

[drseid]

Can't argue with the "bang for the buck" Outlaw provides... To give a different point of view to somewhat balance all the positive ones (not to imply they are not 100% valid for their situations)...

I tried an Outlaw 950 Pre/pro (the older version of the current model) along with 6 of the monoblock power amps, and the relults were truly awful when paired with my Tylers for music. The music appeared to have a veil over it, and it just sounded flat and uninspiring -- flat dynamics, poor soundstage and lack of energy. I compared it at the time to a Marantz 790 Receiver (used as a pre/pro)/Rotel 985 power amp combo and prefered the Marantz/Rotel in the chain (this combo retailed for less than Outlaw, BTW). When I switched to (a much more expensive) Cary/Aragon combo, I got a huge boost in performance -- and my current Cary/Coda combo even improved on that. Bottom line is some speakers will respond well to Outlaw (or other brands)... and there is a very good chance you will be very happy with them... If you have finicky speakers like mine, beware... I *will* say the Outlaw customer service is *incredible*, and resale value is very good too (so the risk of trying them out is pretty low).

---Dave

[Rock789]

I would suggest check many receivers at high end audio stores:
pioneer elite, and integra are two in the same price range as the denon...

also, check out used gear, you can purchase much better equipment in your price range if you look at used...

try www.audiogon.com

[jrcarter]

Will do.

Used, I was a little concerned about going this route, but I will check it out.

[Rock789]

Will do.

Used, I was a little concerned about going this route, but I will check it out.

I was too at first... just check the feedback ratings... ebay is iffy, although I have gotten a lot of good equipment for about %50 the cost new...
but I have gotten some junk on ebay too...

I have never purchased on audiogon, but I am sure some guys on here have... (probably sold on audiogon too)

[nightflier]

Audiogon seems to be a better bet. The people there seem to be a bit more serious about their gear and so they care better for it. On eBay, it's a crap shoot. I've had about a 20% failure rate on gear purchased used on eBay, but never had a problem with anything from Audiogon.

[pixelthis]

Dont worry about the dvi/hdmi stuff, they are both basically the same and adapters work fine with them, been there done that.
BTY the output from hdmi is a LOT better thatn componet, digital to dogital isnt just hype