• 02-20-2009, 03:17 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Rich, how are you making out with that thing?

    Haven't done anything yet kex. Getting ready for tomorrow's party.

    Sunday SUNDAY SUNDAY! :cornut:
  • 02-20-2009, 04:24 PM
    Auricauricle
    Party?! Party?!?!

    Give Rich a break, LJ. Last hard time he gave anybody it took two weeks b'fre they could get the watch out...
  • 02-20-2009, 07:33 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    That page suggests this page...

    http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/

    but again, I think it would benefit the HT community here and myself, if we have a reference thread that isn't link after link to someone else's sites. "Know what I mean Vern?"

    That's Sonny Parker's BFD site (the other link is the OLD link to Sonny Parker's BFD site). Everybody that uses the BFD as a subwoofer EQ at one point or another will use his setup guide. It's by far the best resource on the web for the BFD. Behringer's instructions suck because subwoofer EQing is not the BFD's primary function. They're helpful if you intend for your BFD to double as a feedback attenuator for your concert audio setup, otherwise they suck.

    If you're seeing the Room EQ Wizard instructions, look for the link taking you to Parker's previous BFD guide version that has the manual measurement instructions. That has instructions, plus spreadsheets and correction charts for doing manual measurement using a Radio Shack SPL meter.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Well I guess I should thank everybody for putting all these links up afterall. It will help centralize a lot of info.

    I like what Wooch said here:

    "I've gotten mixed results using the REW software. Once you learn how to use the REW, it's actually simpler to program the BFD because it automatically tells you what settings you should use and how many EQ filters to setup. The REW simplifies things even further if you use a MIDI connection between the computer and the BFD. With a MIDI connection, you can actually use the computer to control the BFD. But, that's a bridge that I haven't crossed yet."

    I'm a computer geek... dork... What can I say?

    I actually preferred the EQ profile that I got using the manual measurement method. The REW settings only gave me three filters, and I felt that the bandwidth on the suggested REW filter settings was too wide. I prefer to tinker and fine tune. But, a lot of the guys that hang out on the BFDGuide forum are Java programmers, and the REW app is their baby and it's constantly getting revised and retooled. If you already have a USB soundcard and a calibrated mic, you might have a great time with that tool, since it gives you all sorts of other audio measurements and visuals. Plus, it's right in Richie Rich's price range ... FREE!!!!!!

    The MIDI connection sounds cool in theory, but I read on the BFDGuide forum that some BFD models have problems with the MIDI connections.
  • 02-20-2009, 07:42 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Yeah I'm not interested in spending, what was it, $80 some-odd bucks on an external USB sound card so I can use a company owned laptop to set up the BFD at this time. I look at this project as another set-it-and-forget-it deal, and the only time I'll be doing anything with it is when I dust or add another component to the audio cabinet.

    I wonder though how much I'll need to change when I finally have the dreaded echo out of my living room. :idea:

    If you got a SPL meter, just do the measurements and start reading up on how to setup the BFD filters. One of the fun things about the BFD is that you can program multiple profiles and EQ curves.

    The only time you will need to change the settings is if you change the location of the sub and/or seating location. Getting the echo out of your living room might not do much to alter the bass, since most materials have minimal effect on low frequencies.
  • 02-20-2009, 08:04 PM
    kexodusc
    I'll second Wooch. I didn't find REW to be very accurate - it seemed the adjustments it made had consequences on frequencies, and it didn't bother to correct them. Granted it only suggested 3 filters to me as well, and I use 5 (including a deliberate boost around my subs F6 to extend response). Easier in some ways but I'm not sure that software is better than YPAO or Audyssey EQ, and many users of those systems report issues too. Still, it is better than trial and error and gets you close for quick results so it's a worthwhile option and will be great for some people. YMMV.

    I think the manual method definitely gives you a better idea of what is going on - it's a learning experience.
  • 02-22-2009, 03:09 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    That's Sonny Parker's BFD site (the other link is the OLD link to Sonny Parker's BFD site). Everybody that uses the BFD as a subwoofer EQ at one point or another will use his setup guide. It's by far the best resource on the web for the BFD. Behringer's instructions suck because subwoofer EQing is not the BFD's primary function. They're helpful if you intend for your BFD to double as a feedback attenuator for your concert audio setup, otherwise they suck.

    I'll drink to that. :yesnod:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wooch
    If you're seeing the Room EQ Wizard instructions, look for the link taking you to Parker's previous BFD guide version that has the manual measurement instructions. That has instructions, plus spreadsheets and correction charts for doing manual measurement using a Radio Shack SPL meter.

    Got it, thanks.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wooch
    ...But, a lot of the guys that hang out on the BFDGuide forum are Java programmers, and the REW app is their baby and it's constantly getting revised and retooled. If you already have a USB soundcard and a calibrated mic, you might have a great time with that tool, since it gives you all sorts of other audio measurements and visuals. Plus, it's right in Richie Rich's price range ... FREE!!!!!!

    I'll drink to that too! :biggrin5:
  • 02-22-2009, 04:57 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Okay, the BFD's up and running. I remembered to set the operating level correctly on the back of the unit, and heard no 60 Hz hum when I powered it on. I then set it to Bypass mode so there would be no active filtering. I spent most of my available time today getting the sub level set according to the BFD Guide that's been linked to. The test movie I used was the BD version of The Dark Knight, and the Dolby TrueHD audio format. I played it "at the maximum level you would listen to it", monitored the input level and ajusted the sub-out level at the receiver until the level meter on the BFD just barely hit the red LED. I used the scene where Bruce and Alfred are testing a bullet using that gun they had setup in the lab. There were 4 shots fired, and when the 3rd shot went off, that's when the meter peaked into the red.

    After I finished that step, I then used my test DVD that I got when I sub'ed to Sound & Vision mag a couple of years ago called "Home Theater Tune-Up" to level off the sub using it's volume control, all the while using my SPL meter to ensure it's level matched the left-front speaker reference level. So, the result of all this was improved LFE volume in my listening area during the movie.

    That's as far as I went today because... well, the rest of the movie distracted me from the task at hand, then I switch over to the NASCAR race. If anything here doesn't sound right (I know my level setup description might sound vague), let me know.

    One question that kept coming up during all this is that the lights on the "Engine L" & "Engine R" "Couple" control buttons were lit solid. I assume this doesn't matter since I'm in Bypass mode correct?
  • 02-22-2009, 08:20 PM
    pixelthis
    1 Attachment(s)
    [QUOTE=Rich-n-Texas]Haven't done anything yet kex. Getting ready for tomorrow's party.

    Sunday SUNDAY SUNDAY! :cornut:



    :1:
  • 02-23-2009, 11:09 AM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Gee, this joint is jumpin' today!!! :rolleyes:

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    One question that kept coming up during all this is that the lights on the "Engine L" & "Engine R" "Couple" control buttons were lit solid. I assume this doesn't matter since I'm in Bypass mode correct?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich
    Got the answer Rich. With both left and right lights lit, filters that are set up for one engine are applied to the other. To disengage one, hold both buttons down briefly and the left channel will remain lit. You're connected to the Left Engine so you'll now be working with the correct one.

  • 02-23-2009, 05:12 PM
    L.J.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Okay, the BFD's up and running. I remembered to set the operating level correctly on the back of the unit, and heard no 60 Hz hum when I powered it on. I then set it to Bypass mode so there would be no active filtering. I spent most of my available time today getting the sub level set according to the BFD Guide that's been linked to. The test movie I used was the BD version of The Dark Knight, and the Dolby TrueHD audio format. I played it "at the maximum level you would listen to it", monitored the input level and ajusted the sub-out level at the receiver until the level meter on the BFD just barely hit the red LED. I used the scene where Bruce and Alfred are testing a bullet using that gun they had setup in the lab. There were 4 shots fired, and when the 3rd shot went off, that's when the meter peaked into the red.

    After I finished that step, I then used my test DVD that I got when I sub'ed to Sound & Vision mag a couple of years ago called "Home Theater Tune-Up" to level off the sub using it's volume control, all the while using my SPL meter to ensure it's level matched the left-front speaker reference level. So, the result of all this was improved LFE volume in my listening area during the movie.

    That's as far as I went today because... well, the rest of the movie distracted me from the task at hand, then I switch over to the NASCAR race. If anything here doesn't sound right (I know my level setup description might sound vague), let me know.

    One question that kept coming up during all this is that the lights on the "Engine L" & "Engine R" "Couple" control buttons were lit solid. I assume this doesn't matter since I'm in Bypass mode correct?

    I used U571, depth charge scene :cornut:

    I may go back in and finally finish up. I knocked down my peaks and got some good results but my plan was to go back in and do a better job when I had free time. Or maybe not, I've been busy lately. BTW, I haven't forgot about you. I'll get that out soon.
  • 02-23-2009, 06:03 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    I decided to download the test tones Zip file from THTS's downloads page and then burnt them to a CD. I have the test tones that range from 16 - 160 Hz, and each one plays on my Oppo player for about ten seconds.

    I'm concerned that I didn't set my measurements level correctly during that part of the setup. When I used the Dark Knight scene to get the peak (barely "clipping") level by adjusting the sub level at the receiver I didn't make note of the receiver's volume. I then used the S&V HT Tune-up disk's test tones to adjust the level at the sub's amp to equal the other speakers (I had to decrease the level by about 5 dB). I then went back to the receiver's test tones to get 70 dB on the SPL meter by adjusting the receiver's volume to -5 dB. Am I supposed to be using that level setting on the receiver when I start running the test tones, or should I be using the receiver level I didn't make note of, meaning I have to set up the level all over again? Also, I assume that since the meter on the BFD never went into the red when I was running the test tones I don't have to worry about harming the sub, correct?

    A couple of things I did notice when I played the d/l'ed test tones with the receiver @ -15 dB... a picture on my wall at a location diagonal from the sub and very close to the corner of the room started rattling at the lower end of the frequency range, and the glassware in a china cabinet very close to the sub started rattling during the upper range frequencies. This scared me the first time I heard these and rushed to turn the receiver's volume down. I ran the sweep again, this time standing in the corner by the picture and realized just why it was rattling. :eek6: So I learned that there is some serious gathering of the lows over there.
  • 02-25-2009, 08:05 AM
    L.J.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    I decided to download the test tones Zip file from THTS's downloads page and then burnt them to a CD. I have the test tones that range from 16 - 160 Hz, and each one plays on my Oppo player for about ten seconds.

    I'm concerned that I didn't set my measurements level correctly during that part of the setup. When I used the Dark Knight scene to get the peak (barely "clipping") level by adjusting the sub level at the receiver I didn't make note of the receiver's volume. I then used the S&V HT Tune-up disk's test tones to adjust the level at the sub's amp to equal the other speakers (I had to decrease the level by about 5 dB). I then went back to the receiver's test tones to get 70 dB on the SPL meter by adjusting the receiver's volume to -5 dB. Am I supposed to be using that level setting on the receiver when I start running the test tones, or should I be using the receiver level I didn't make note of, meaning I have to set up the level all over again? Also, I assume that since the meter on the BFD never went into the red when I was running the test tones I don't have to worry about harming the sub, correct?

    Once the input level is set on the BFD, the AVR's sub output shouldn't be adjusted after that. You use the sub to adjust the volume. If I remember correctly, I used the test disc to adjust the output to 75db and made note of my AVR volume to play the rest of the tones at.

    Sounds like your moving along just fine. My meter hits red sometimes. Maybe on the most dynamic scenes. Usually in the green though.

    BTW, I have my sub bumped up about 3-4 db higher than the rest of my speakers :thumbsup:



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    A couple of things I did notice when I played the d/l'ed test tones with the receiver @ -15 dB... a picture on my wall at a location diagonal from the sub and very close to the corner of the room started rattling at the lower end of the frequency range, and the glassware in a china cabinet very close to the sub started rattling during the upper range frequencies. This scared me the first time I heard these and rushed to turn the receiver's volume down. I ran the sweep again, this time standing in the corner by the picture and realized just why it was rattling. :eek6: So I learned that there is some serious gathering of the lows over there.

    Once you start getting those peaks knocked down, you'll notice a lot smoother bass response. I could barely adjust my sub level correctly because my spl meter needle was bouncing everywhere. Now it's nice and steady. I could also raise my sub's volume. I had to lower the volume due to the nasty peak I had. All good stuff. I couldn't get the full potential of my sub without the BFD.
  • 02-25-2009, 08:26 AM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Funny, I was just getting ready to post something here just to keep the thread from falling under the radar...

    Well, I haven't started taking measurements yet, but...

    (drum roll please)

    I think I've FINALLY gotten the right location for my sub,

    AND...

    I think I've FINALLY gotten my speakers level matched to the point where I'm hearing even more detail, and for the first time, hints of a true surround sound experience which, believe it or not, was sorely missing. I played a concert DVD in DTS and I heard instruments previously undetected (Tony Levin's bass guitar really hitting home), and voices with excellent tonal qualities. I'm suspecting some of that has to do with with the new position of the sub.

    I read (yes, 3 - 4 times) the manual setup guide at HTS, and noticed that the author adjusted the receiver volume to hit +73 dB using the 16 Hz tone as the reference, so that clears up one of my questions.

    I didn't take any readings last night (not to make excuses but...) because it was so warm out... +75 degrees HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! I had windows open throughout the house, and I have a busy street so it caused a lot of inconsistent readings at the meter. That jerk who drives a pickup truck with 1 billion watts of subwoofer power pinned my SPL meter when he drove by ( :incazzato: )

    Anyway, thanks for stopping by L.J. I think I'm going to have fun with this project when I get the hang of the BFD. :yesnod:
  • 02-25-2009, 08:30 AM
    L.J.
    Pretty interesting once you start working with it. I nice piece of gear but man is it ugly :smilewinkgrin:
  • 02-25-2009, 08:35 AM
    Rich-n-Texas
    "Ugly" = correct, that's why it will be co-habitating with the ugly Emotiva amp behind the cabinet door when all's said and done.
  • 02-25-2009, 11:13 AM
    kexodusc
    Ugly amp? I think it's quite stunning really. The LED's are a bit bright if you're in a small room, but in my larger dark room they look pretty cool.

    Glad you're getting the hand of it Rich. You'll notice quite the difference. Do you have your speakers set to small or large? Worth going back later and experimenting with small if you don't have them that way already.
  • 02-25-2009, 12:17 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    I think they're set to large. I used the Yamaha Receiver Manager s/w to set the levels so I wouldn't have to constantly start and stop the S&V disk while I was setting the levels using the GUI menu. That tool is coming in handy for this process.

    So did anybody hear what I said... +75 degrees HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! ?

    About 80 degrees today. Might just cook a steak on the grill for dinner. :biggrin5:
  • 02-25-2009, 12:48 PM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    I think they're set to large. I used the Yamaha Receiver Manager s/w to set the levels so I wouldn't have to constantly start and stop the S&V disk while I was setting the levels using the GUI menu. That tool is coming in handy for this process.

    So did anybody hear what I said... +75 degrees HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! ?

    About 80 degrees today. Might just cook a steak on the grill for dinner. :biggrin5:

    That's way too hot for this time of year. How can you put up with it?
  • 02-25-2009, 12:57 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    No such thing as "way too hot for this time of year". No sir!
  • 02-25-2009, 02:20 PM
    GMichael
    It's unnatural. Call Gore.
  • 02-26-2009, 07:45 AM
    f0rge
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    It's unnatural. Call Gore.

    i agree, stop global warming, we need the ice for parties.
  • 02-26-2009, 07:50 AM
    Rich-n-Texas
    I never should've said it. It just encourages the alarmist camp I suppose. :nonod:

    (A high of 80 degrees today.) :ihih:
  • 02-26-2009, 08:17 AM
    GMichael
    Hold on everybody! Somebody here said something ultra-important, and we missed it.:eek6:

    Rich, you said something about the weather. Cute, but boring.:rolleyes5: That wasn't it.
    I said something about Gore. Smart, but that's not it either.
    That leaves f0rge. You said something about global warming. That's just stupid.:arf: NOT IT!:eek6: Oh wait. Here is is. You also said "PARTIES!" :yikes:
    THAT'S IT! That was the equation. Parties cancel out boredom.:thumbsup:
    BRILLIANT!
    Who's got the drinks?
  • 02-26-2009, 11:23 AM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Here's a question...

    For those with a PS3 (and BFD of course), would you use it or your DVD player to run the test tones when setting up a preset for movie playback?
  • 02-26-2009, 11:43 AM
    L.J.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Here's a question...

    For those with a PS3 (and BFD of course), would you use it or your DVD player to run the test tones when setting up a preset for movie playback?

    PS3 since it's my main source. You can set up a different set of filters for each source if you like.
  • 02-26-2009, 12:00 PM
    f0rge
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    Who's got the drinks?

    i could totally go for a couple of beers right about now, first round is on me
  • 02-26-2009, 01:54 PM
    GMichael
    1 Attachment(s)
    Rich was caught groping Jess in public.

    Rich, I set you up with a nice girl, and this is how you treat her?:incazzato:
  • 02-27-2009, 01:00 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by L.J.
    I used U571, depth charge scene :cornut:

    U571 Blu-ray is on its way. :ihih: I'll see how it compares to the Dark Night scene I was using.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by L.J.
    I may go back in and finally finish up. I knocked down my peaks and got some good results but my plan was to go back in and do a better job when I had free time. Or maybe not, I've been busy lately. BTW, I haven't forgot about you. I'll get that out soon.

    Enjoy some beers while you're working. I know I will. :yesnod:
  • 02-27-2009, 01:46 PM
    L.J.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    U571 Blu-ray is on its way. :ihih: I'll see how it compares to the Dark Night scene I was using.


    Enjoy some beers while you're working. I know I will. :yesnod:

    I don't think the input level needs to be perfect so you'll be a ok. I rarely see red. Actually, it's closed off in a cabinet so I don't pay any attention to it anymore.

    BTW, if your like me....it's gonna take a couple of hours from start to finish. I was getting tired of hearing all the tones over and over so I got some ear plugs for next time.
  • 02-27-2009, 03:14 PM
    kexodusc
    The red just means the BFD is close to clipping the signal....it's not optimal if it goes much beyond that...sort of the final warning. I would just turn the volume on the sub up a bit, and manually decrease the sub level in the receiver's settings a bit to compensate.

    Rich, setting filters is a iterative process. Set your first 2 filters (starting low to high) and then measure again, you may find some other frequencies outside the target range were affected...especially multiples of the frequency in question.

    When you get really brave with it you can use it to boost your subs lower frequencies a bit to compensate for where it starts to roll off. It's sort of cheating but it's a great little perk to this thing.
  • 02-27-2009, 03:28 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Well I've completed reading the manual setup guide (I'll still be using it step-by-step) and I'm going to start in on it this weekend.

    The thing that still bugs me is the logic behind the level setup. Isn't all this referencing movies for loud passages, all the way through adjusting the sub level at its amp kind of arbitrary? Compounded further by the fact that, like L.J. says, the loud passage doesn't really have to peak in the red? I understand kex what the red LED is indicating, but all the pre-measuring excercises seem kind of irrelevant to me.
  • 02-27-2009, 03:34 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    U571 Blu-ray is on its way. :ihih: I'll see how it compares to the Dark Night scene I was using.


    Enjoy some beers while you're working. I know I will. :yesnod:

    Might want to add Master and Commander to your playlist. IMO, that's the gold standard for movie soundtracks. Deep, tight bass plus amazingly three-dimensional surround imaging. This track is not only great for subwoofer demos, but it's also one of the best soundtracks for checking your surround speaker placement.
  • 02-27-2009, 03:37 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Well I've completed reading the manual setup guide (I'll still be using it step-by-step) and I'm going to start in on it this weekend.

    The thing that still bugs me is the logic behind the level setup. Isn't all this referencing movies for loud passages, all the way through adjusting the sub level at its amp kind of arbitrary? Compounded further by the fact that, like L.J. says, the loud passage doesn't really have to peak in the red? I understand kex what the red LED is indicating, but all the pre-measuring excercises seem kind of irrelevant to me.

    If you're hitting the red LED on the BFD, then you might want to dial back the subwoofer level from your receiver and compensate for that by raising the level on the subwoofer itself. You'll still wind up with the same decibel level, but you won't get a distorted/clipped signal sent through the BFD.
  • 02-27-2009, 04:07 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    That's what I did Wooch. The setup guide says it's okay if the level hits the "Clip" LED occasionally (I know what clipping is), but I mean, I could run level tests with different movie tracks all day and I'd never get the same results twice, so that's why it just seems arbitrary to me. Other than the fact that clipping is not good.
  • 02-27-2009, 04:40 PM
    kexodusc
    It's not really arbitrary, but it is splitting hairs a bit. We're only recommending you bump the volume on the sub up and turn the gain from the receiver down to minimize any clipping possibilities on every sound track. Some movies will be a bit louder than others, what you want to avoid is the BFD clipping the signal before it reaches the sub's amp. The sub's amp will amplify what it receives until it's clipping point, and you most likely have more headroom on the sub than you do on the receiver. But still, you could probably leave it the way you have it and not notice any clipping effects as long as you own it. It's just a question of how sure you want to be.
  • 02-27-2009, 05:02 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Okay. When I test again with U-571, I'll adjust so there's no possibility that explosions will clip (Y'all got me paranoid now :nonod: )
  • 02-27-2009, 05:05 PM
    kexodusc
    I wouldn't worry too much about it. When I blast the music or a good movie I'll hit the red a few times during the movie. I don't notice any nasty stuff, the walls are too busy shaking and looking over my shoulder to see if Lucifer himself has cracked the earth and crawled into my HT room.

    As long as it's only hitting the red when it's really, really loud, louder than you normally listen to(ie, your loudest peaks) then that's all you need to worry about. If it was tripping the red at your normal listening volume you'd want to change the setting.
  • 02-27-2009, 05:10 PM
    L.J.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Okay. When I test again with U-571, I'll adjust so there's no possibility that explosions will clip (Y'all got me paranoid now :nonod: )

    your funny :ciappa:
  • 02-27-2009, 05:12 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    BTW, when I came home from work the other day I noticed a picture sitting on the floor below it's hanger. It's in a very old frame with a thick cardboard frame eye; don't think its related to my experimentation, but if it's a sign of things to come...

    :ihih:
  • 02-28-2009, 03:33 PM
    Rich-n-Texas
    Sub eq round 1
    This is a before graph. I'll start setting up filters next, but I just wanted to get some comments...

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../SubRawcal.jpg