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  1. #151
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    I agree that there are those on this site that confuse fact with opinion. I believe I am addressing one of them right now. Your airplane analogy is misleading because it deals with an accepted and scientifically provable constant--gravity. A more fitting storyline would be for you to tell everyone in AR that the pictures on their walls were all royal blue because in the last 10 or 20 years all the pictures you have seen have been royal blue and you read some reports saying all pictures are royal blue. And, if you haven't figured out in a couple decades that reviews can be some of the most slipshod, least accurate source for facts then you may want to petition Father Time for a mulligan.

    I have heard Klipsch speakers and did not like what I heard. They were set up in a poor configuration with a subpar receiver in a room with no treatments. Do I make universal statements that all Klipsch speakers perform this way? I could, but that would make me sound a bit daft. Also, I know that many people, including the SET crowd and vintage lovers and,indeed, yourself, seem to get positive results from them. It would be safe to conclude that these experiences are the result of other variables at play in comparison to my own experience.

    As for being "invested in doing things a certain way", on Tuesday I'm auditioning some new speaks of the cone variety. Should i find them to be a discernable improvement I shall snap them up on the spot and in subsequent conversations will begin with qualifying phrases such as "In my room..." or "I felt that.." etc. Ideed, dynamics and imaging will play a part in my judgements however I will conclude the results to be dependent on my situation (with all its variables included) rather than a universal statement of truth.

    ...And thanks for the compliment on my Sony DVD player. I don't own one, but at least you managed to say something nice although it was about as "factual" as anything else you've said.


    --sonny boy
    You realize what you have just stated havent you? That reveiwing equipment is worthless,
    since no two pieces of equipment sound alike, you cant base a comment on a pair of Klipsch speakers because no two pair sound alike, and even if they did they are listened to in various conditions, so I guess reviews of equipment are worthless.
    Actually Klipsch is trading on an old name, their new Chinese stuff has about as much to do with classic klipsch gear as your post has to do with logic
    And their titanium tweeters tend to cause listener fatigue. OPPS! Made a universal statement there about Klipsh tweeters all being titanium !
    And when you listen to those "cone" speakers you'll maybe notice that the sound is way more localized than the dispersed sound that comes from a electrostatic sheet.
    And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it.
    Crt televisions have high voltage power supplies of 30,000 volts or more and they dont "short out", move positive and negative far enough away and they wont no matter what the voltage. My mention of 50,000 volts was maybe an exaggeration, but stems from
    an electrostatic design of a few years back that did utilize such voltages.
    Nevertless the point still stands that electrostatics are a case of re-inventing a very nice wheel, they have no intrinsic or extrinsic advantage over a standard speaker, and have a lot of disadvantages, like a higher power bill for instance

    Of course according to you all of this is mute, since stuff is listened to in various enviroments reviews of gear is worthless.
    Maybe we should review living room furniture instead, see how it affects the "sound" of our gear
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  2. #152
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Crt televisions have high voltage power supplies of 30,000 volts or more and they dont "short out", move positive and negative far enough away and they wont no matter what the voltage.
    The difference, my learned electronics tech, is that CRTs are sealed in a vacuum! We who dwell in the atmosphere are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    My mention of 50,000 volts was maybe an exaggeration, but stems from
    an electrostatic design of a few years back that did utilize such voltages.
    Do tell us of this design that defies physics. I'd really be interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Of course according to you all of this is mute...
    FYI, I think you mean "moot".

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 07-30-2007 at 06:52 AM.

  3. #153
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat

    FYI, I think you mean "moot".

    rw
    I'm sure you're right. But I still vote for mute.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  4. #154
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it.
    Actually the current (amps) have nothing to do with it. The voltage is the pressure and the current is the amount of electrons flowing.

    Think pressure in a hose, you can have a pin hole but little flow. Of course the better conductivity of the "medium" the more current CAN flow.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  5. #155
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The difference, my learned electronics tech, is that CRTs are sealed in a vacuum! We who dwell in the atmosphere are not.


    Do tell us of this design that defies physics. I'd really be interested.


    FYI, I think you mean "moot".

    rw
    THE TUBES HAVE A VACCUME, THE POWER SUPPLIES DO NOT


    AND I meant "mute" not moot since you are obviously not hearing much, so what you're listening to is "mute"
    As for physics what type?
    Quantum?
    neutonian?
    exercise class?
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  6. #156
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    THE TUBES HAVE A VACCUME, THE POWER SUPPLIES DO NOT
    Really need to work on that spelling!

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    AND I meant "mute" not moot since you are obviously not hearing much, so what you're listening to is "mute"
    What you said originally makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    As for physics what type?
    Still waiting to hear of this magical 'stat that runs using a 50kV bias in the open air..

    rw

  7. #157
    Audio/Video Nirvana robert393's Avatar
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    Let's see.........

    I could have spent the last 30 min watching a really funny episode of The Three Stooges, or reading this thread. This thread is FAR more FUNNY.....and would make a REALLY GOOD Stooges eposode (no offense to The Stooges intended)!

    Each opposing person really does have valid points. Not to say each is ABSOLUTELY right.

    Move along...........nobody wins here.

    Robert

    Funniest part of thread: post #79
    "Other than the slight top-end distortion and lack of low frequency *clarity*, everything sounds "good". I don't have trained ears........" That is like saying "except for the car pulling to the right, the clanking under the hood, and no brakes........the car drives great!"

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  8. #158
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert393
    I could have spent the last 30 min watching a really funny episode of The Three Stooges, or reading this thread.
    Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

    rw

  9. #159
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues
    Actually the current (amps) have nothing to do with it. The voltage is the pressure and the current is the amount of electrons flowing.

    Think pressure in a hose, you can have a pin hole but little flow. Of course the better conductivity of the "medium" the more current CAN flow.
    How do you think you get 30,000 volts from a power supply to run a CRT?
    Its only 120 at the wall.
    You use a high voltage "stepup" transformer and high voltage rectifier.
    This is a "trade", current for voltage, you wind up with 30,000 volts but very little amps.
    The same thing happens in reverse with an inverter used in a car.
    The 12 volt batteryhas usually around 600 amps, a hugh amount, you "trade those amps for volts to run TV'S, etc.
    Voltage IS pressure, and current is the water, but you can trade them back and forth with step-up and step-down transformers
    Its the number one law of the universe, you dont get something for nothing.
    I once built a flashing disco light thingy that had neon bulbs, run off of a nine volt battery, had a bunch of capacitors that charged to run the bulbs.
    So current has to do with it in the sense that if you dont have enough current to "trade" you wont get a decent step up voltage.
    This is a little test I pulled on ol electrostat, sure there isnt anything like a 50,000 volt speaker, because after stepping up the voltage you wouldnt have enough current to
    run the thing.
    I was just curious about the average knowledge of your average electrostat fan,
    what he knew about basic electronics, but hey, I guess he has me beat
    on grammar!
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  10. #160
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    How do you think you get 30,000 volts from a power supply to run a CRT?
    Its only 120 at the wall.
    You use a high voltage "stepup" transformer and high voltage rectifier.
    This is a "trade", current for voltage, you wind up with 30,000 volts but very little amps.
    The same thing happens in reverse with an inverter used in a car.
    The 12 volt batteryhas usually around 600 amps, a hugh amount, you "trade those amps for volts to run TV'S, etc.
    Voltage IS pressure, and current is the water, but you can trade them back and forth with step-up and step-down transformers
    Its the number one law of the universe, you dont get something for nothing.
    I once built a flashing disco light thingy that had neon bulbs, run off of a nine volt battery, had a bunch of capacitors that charged to run the bulbs.
    So current has to do with it in the sense that if you dont have enough current to "trade" you wont get a decent step up voltage.
    This is a little test I pulled on ol electrostat, sure there isnt anything like a 50,000 volt speaker, because after stepping up the voltage you wouldnt have enough current to
    run the thing.
    I was just curious about the average knowledge of your average electrostat fan,
    what he knew about basic electronics, but hey, I guess he has me beat
    on grammar!
    and I quote "And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it."

    So you say you need a relatively high current to discharge 50,000 volts in the atmosphere? Ever heard of static electricity we're talking about milliamps? The higher the voltage or static buildup the greater distance it can breach. The amperage is a product of the total resistance (or capacitance) of the medium it travels through. The required voltage to breach a given distance is dependent on the conductivity of the medium present. Why do you think that high voltage switches use arc quenching devices and low voltage ones do not regardless of the amperage rating?

    You really need to work on your credibility around here.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  11. #161
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    I was just curious about the average knowledge of your average electrostat fan...
    Well, I'm glad I passed your test.

    I'll be the first to agree that some electrostats can be finicky and are not the most practical kind of speaker. I have to adjust the bias on mine virtually every time I listen as the ideal setting depends upon both temperature and humidity. Too much and you hear a sizzling sound. Not enough and you lose efficiency. My previous Acoustats beamed severely which meant that it was a one person speaker. While the image was wonderful in the sweet spot, it changed rather drastically once you moved. The current Sound Labs, by contrast, are a four-person-across speaker devoid of that intrinsic beaming.

    On the other hand, their resolution and utter coherency is unmatched. The ability to duplicate the complex timbres found in music. What makes them the ideal microphone does translate to the other end of the reproduction chain. I was listening last night to Stephen Sondheim's A Little Night Music. On the "Weekend in the Country" cut, you could hear precisely where the four primary vocalists stood on the stage, both laterally and depthwise. Which makes me wonder why you think electrostats image poorly. As for reviews, here are a few I found with a range of different makes:

    Innersound

    The Eros Mk.IIIs' best quality was their first-rate imaging: They generated a seamless, wall-to-wall soundstage that did not seem to emanate from the speakers themselves. The first track on David Hudson's Didgeridoo Spirit (CD, Indigenous Australia IA2003 D) opens with sounds of a rainforest, complete with a soft rain falling, exotic birds chirping, and wind rustling through the leaves. I heard so much new information over the Eroses that I was startled.

    Martin-Logan

    Well, I'll tell you first what impressed me about the CLS. Stereo imagery was spectacularly precise. Not only were instruments and voices hung in space between and behind the speakers—which quite disappear—with both a natural perspective and unexaggerated size, but the way in which that perspective and the instrumental balance continually shift as the recording engineers play with the mixing desk was ruthlessly laid bare.

    Quad

    Image width excelled, with rock-stable specificity and needle-sharp focus in the far lateral field. Dispersion in the US Monitor was generous—it became possible to move around without losing the stereo image (no pinpoint "sweet spot"!). Two people (who no longer need to be Siamese Twins) sitting side-by-side could easily experience the speaker's superb imaging.

    Quad 989

    The ESL-989s' imaging was topnotch, conveying a seamless, wall-to-wall soundstage that did not seem to emanate from the speakers themselves. They captured the soundstage depth and width of "Naris," from Patricia Barber's Blue Café (CD, Premonition/Blue Note 5 21810 2). Percussion was open, airy, fast, and transparent. José Carreras in Misa Criolla was startling, his soft tenor in the foreground, a large, muted drum playing deep and to the left of center stage, backed up by the large, distant chorus. The perspective was spacious and eerie, suggesting the desolation and emptiness of a high South American plateau. Suzanne Vega seemed to materialize between the two ESLs, close enough to touch, as she sang "Tom's Diner," from Solitude Standing (CD, A&M CD 5136).

    Sound Lab

    Imaging from the A-3s is spectacular! With a mono source, the "image" remains tightly bunched between the speakers, with no perceptible wander either with changes of pitch or lateral changes of listening position, and this translates into almost incredible image specificity and stability from stereo sources. This is, in fact, the first electrostatic system I have heard which allows me to move from end to end of my listening sofa to the other (a distance of about two meters) without the "stage" position shifting almost entirely to one speaker and becoming, essentially, monophonic. As you might surmise, there is virtually no vertical venetian-blind effect from the Sound-Lab speakers.

    More Sound Lab

    Unnecessary? Perhaps, but so then are Ferraris. They're clearly not for everyone. On the other hand, I've yet to hear a multi-way dynamic speaker truly disappear before me like they do.

    rw

  12. #162
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    ...evidently bringing Joe Kane sandwiches doesn't entitle one to the full lesson.

  13. #163
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues
    and I quote "And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it."

    So you say you need a relatively high current to discharge 50,000 volts in the atmosphere? Ever heard of static electricity we're talking about milliamps? The higher the voltage or static buildup the greater distance it can breach. The amperage is a product of the total resistance (or capacitance) of the medium it travels through. The required voltage to breach a given distance is dependent on the conductivity of the medium present. Why do you think that high voltage switches use arc quenching devices and low voltage ones do not regardless of the amperage rating?

    You really need to work on your credibility around here.
    My credibility?
    I'm talking basic electronics and you're talkin about stuff you get when you rub your socks on the floor.
    Static electricity can be up to fifty thousand volts in short bursts, and can numb your
    arm in the winter if you're not carefull, but why dont they just pull the stuff outta the air?
    Why do you pay the electric company? You're talking apples and oranges.
    And I am glad you like your expensive tweakey speakers electro, maybe someday you will figure out they arent worth the trouble.
    I think of Monty python when I see someone playing with electrostats
    Silly boy! silly silly boy!
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