My friend says his Onkyo 302 sounds better than my Pioneer 815

[Dmax]

Why would he say such a thing? He says though his Onkyo has less watts (65 watts) it has better sound quality and is still stronger than my 100 watts and mines is 7.1 while his is just 5.1. What does he mean ?

[N. Abstentia]

Well he's somewhat right....Onkyo rates their power realistically, while Pioneer...embellishes a little bit. So if the two receivers were measured the same way the Pioneer would probably also be 65 watts or even less.

7.1 means you have two extra channels and can run a 7.1 system with side surrounds. A 5.1 system cannot do this...of course since there are no 7.1 DVD's that's not a big deal.

Sound quality? That's subjective. Who's to say which sounds better?

[kexodusc]

Well he's somewhat right....Onkyo rates their power realistically, while Pioneer...embellishes a little bit. So if the two receivers were measured the same way the Pioneer would probably also be 65 watts or even less.

It's the exact opposite. Read some lab measurements of any Pioneer receiver over the last few years, and any of the sub $1000 Onkyo's. Pioneers generally offer more power and don't embellish at nearly as much as Onkyo. I don't know when this happened exactly, I remember a few years back Pioneer wasn't making the same quality stuff they use to. All I can say now is that they're right back up there with the likes of Denon, Yamaha, H/K etc, and seem to offer as much or more power than all of them. Quality wise, you rarely hear of problems these days (no more than the other brands) and sound wise, well, they're as good as any of them IMO, but yeah, it's pretty subjective.

I think your friend is on crack. Those entry level Onkyos aren't as powerful, and are nowhere near as nice as your 815 IMO. Tell him to quit being jealous, and shut up!

[Dmax]

It's the exact opposite. Read some lab measurements of any Pioneer receiver over the last few years, and any of the sub $1000 Onkyo's. Pioneers generally offer more power and don't embellish at nearly as much as Onkyo. I don't know when this happened exactly, I remember a few years back Pioneer wasn't making the same quality stuff they use to. All I can say now is that they're right back up there with the likes of Denon, Yamaha, H/K etc, and seem to offer as much or more power than all of them. Quality wise, you rarely hear of problems these days (no more than the other brands) and sound wise, well, they're as good as any of them IMO, but yeah, it's pretty subjective.

I think your friend is on crack. Those entry level Onkyos aren't as powerful, and are nowhere near as nice as your 815 IMO. Tell him to quit being jealous, and shut up!

Thanx guys! I think my friend is more jealous than anything,he hates when someone gets something new.

[N. Abstentia]

I seriously doubt that a $250 Pioneer entry level reciever will produce a clean pure 100 watts on all 7 channels driven at the same time. That's 700 pure clean RMS watts? No. It might do 100 watts with all 7 channels combined.

[bfalls]

How did he measure the performance? Was he running the same source and speakers? If not, how does he know if it's the receiver and not something else in the "chain? It may be just his opinion and not necessarily jealousy.

[Dmax]

I seriously doubt that a $250 Pioneer entry level reciever will produce a clean pure 100 watts on all 7 channels driven at the same time. That's 700 pure clean RMS watts? No. It might do 100 watts with all 7 channels combined.

Whats the difference between pure watts and other types of watts?

[markw]

I seriously doubt that a $250 Pioneer entry level reciever will produce a clean pure 100 watts on all 7 channels driven at the same time.

I guaranrtee it won't.

[N. Abstentia]

Whats the difference between pure watts and other types of watts?

Real watts (RMS) = what each channel can constantly output with minimal distortion throughout the entire freqency range.

'Embilleshed' watts (looks good on paper/at the store) = The amount of power the amp might produce for 100 milliseconds at 1000 hz with 10% distortion with all channels combined.

[kexodusc]

No, it won't output 100 watts X 7. S&V measured the 815K to ouput 70 watts into 5 and 60 watts into 7. Which is pretty respectable. For receiver with a list price at $300.

The Onkyo TX-SR303 that's out is rated at 65 X 5. I haven't seen any lab results, but I'm skeptical it can keep up with the Pioneer with it's lower weight and smaller PSU.

I have a year old S&V test result in front of me reviewing the onkyo TX-SR501 (predecessor to the 503). It's 65 X 6 watts really only put out 47 watts into 5-channles. And that's the $400 version.


Compare the $1500 TX-NR901 Onkyo claimed was 110 X 7 and wouldn't do 50 watts with 5 channels driven to the $500 VSX-1014TX from Pionner that did an honest 115 watts into 5 channels.

[kexodusc]

Real watts (RMS) = what each channel can constantly output with minimal distortion throughout the entire freqency range.

'Embilleshed' watts (looks good on paper/at the store) = The amount of power the amp might produce for 100 milliseconds at 1000 hz with 10% distortion with all channels combined.

RMS ouptut is anything BUT constant.

Even those "BestBuy" specs aren't always bad. I see a lot of them refer to 1 KHz (which is a fair approximation of most of the spectrum) at no more than 1% distortion. If you used a sub crossed over at 80 Hz or so, that figure would actually be pretty reliable.

I think this is a classic case of people getting carried away with specs. IMO the, "all channels driven"spec that is the current fad is far more useless than those suspect Best Buy 110 X 7 watt specs the $300 Pioneers crank out. Unless you use your receiver to heat your home or cook toast or something.

Most of the time, instantaneous dynamic power for a few seconds (even miliseconds while the caps recharge) is all that's required in even the most demanding soundtracks. An all channels driven spec that requires driving a speaker to the rated power for over 5 consecutive minutes is absolutely not a real world representation of a receiver's ability, no matter how impressive the result. Who gives a flying %$@&? I have yet to see one movie that has a special effect at max level for 5 straight minutes into all channels. Not one.

[vxaudio]

DMAX. looks like you found a deal or broke down and got the 815. smart move, i have used mine a good bit now and love it. Your friend is on crack. the receiver i had before this was the onkyo 502 6x65w and it was so weak that my surrounds and back would clip and cut out below reference level. only the fronts and center seemed to have any power whatsoever. the 815 x7 will go beyond reference with ease. the 5-band eq really has helped me with the midrange stuff. i have an svs pci 2531 and before i had a ton of bass, alot of treble and almost no midrange with the 502. with music this has made a HUGE difference...also, the surround material seems to have alot more going on than before. the cheaper onkyo's arent worth having...IMO after upgrading. i cant believe that i used that receiver for so long. Anyways,,i bet your friends car is faster and girlfriend is hotter too, right??

.The only vice ive found so far is that i cant find a way to change the display from just the source (ie...dvd/ld, tv/sat, ect..) anybody know if you can change this?

[Dmax]

DMAX. looks like you found a deal or broke down and got the 815. smart move, i have used mine a good bit now and love it. Your friend is on crack. the receiver i had before this was the onkyo 502 6x65w and it was so weak that my surrounds and back would clip and cut out below reference level. only the fronts and center seemed to have any power whatsoever. the 815 x7 will go beyond reference with ease. the 5-band eq really has helped me with the midrange stuff. i have an svs pci 2531 and before i had a ton of bass, alot of treble and almost no midrange with the 502. with music this has made a HUGE difference...also, the surround material seems to have alot more going on than before. the cheaper onkyo's arent worth having...IMO after upgrading. i cant believe that i used that receiver for so long. Anyways,,i bet your friends car is faster and girlfriend is hotter too, right??

.The only vice ive found so far is that i cant find a way to change the display from just the source (ie...dvd/ld, tv/sat, ect..) anybody know if you can change this?

I am very happy with my 815,learning all that it can do is fun although your way ahead of me as far knowing how to operate it but im getting there slowly. If my friend didnt smoke crack he definately got hold to something that has his head screwed up.His car is faster but my girlfriends hotter.Talk to you later.

[edtyct]

Hey, wait a minute. Does crack make Onkyo receivers sound better? Does it work on other equipment?

[GMichael]

I am very happy with my 815,learning all that it can do is fun although your way ahead of me as far knowing how to operate it but im getting there slowly. If my friend didnt smoke crack he definately got hold to something that has his head screwed up.His car is faster but my girlfriends hotter.Talk to you later.

But who's car is hotter & girlfriend faster? Who's got the best crack?

[Dmax]

But who's car is hotter & girlfriend faster? Who's got the best crack?

lmao!

[topspeed]

Why would he say such a thing? He says though his Onkyo has less watts (65 watts) it has better sound quality and is still stronger than my 100 watts and mines is 7.1 while his is just 5.1. What does he mean ? His car is faster but my girlfriends hotter.

Oh yeah, well I heard his big brother can beat-up your big brother.

Here's an idea, why don't you two just whip it out and measure? Let's settle this once and for all. Sheesh!

Anybody that has such low self-esteem that they have to claim their rig sounds better than another's has bigger issues to deal with than avr's. If you actually react to it, you're no better.

Make the choice: Are you on the same level as your friend, or are you better?

[evil__betty]

Normally, I would side with your buddy that Onkyo is better than Pioneer - however the 303 from Onkyo is very weak-kneed. Pioneer does make very good 'bang-for-buck' recievers, and my 1015 is no exception, however Products from Onkyo (from the 603 and up) do deliver a lot more current and do sound better. You bought a very rock-solid peice for the money. Tell your buddy if he wants bragging rights go spend at least double, if not triple what he spent on the 303, and you can rest assured that your receiver is better than his.

cheers!

p.s. have you ever looked at the back of the 303? Just try and find the component video switching! And where are the S-video inputs? Wow! Only one optical and one digital coax input?!? I don't see any pre-outs on the unit either (except sub). Oh, and cheeck out those high quality speaker wire terminals. Your receiver is way better for the money!

[kexodusc]

Anybody that has such low self-esteem that they have to claim their rig sounds better than another's has bigger issues to deal with than avr's. If you actually react to it, you're no better.

Make the choice: Are you on the same level as your friend, or are you better?

You could be the bigger man and let your friend's insecurities go unanswered. But that's what a LOSER does. When you've got better gear and you KNOW it you rub it in his face until he saves up enough money, buys better gear, and does the same to you. Then, when you're on the receiving end of the taunts, that's when it's time to grow up and be the bigger man...

[Dmax]

Oh yeah, well I heard his big brother can beat-up your big brother.

Here's an idea, why don't you two just whip it out and measure? Let's settle this once and for all. Sheesh!

Anybody that has such low self-esteem that they have to claim their rig sounds better than another's has bigger issues to deal with than avr's. If you actually react to it, you're no better.

Make the choice: Are you on the same level as your friend, or are you better?

Thanx Sally Jesse Raphael, I will work harder on this life threatening issue.

[Woochifer]

I am very happy with my 815,learning all that it can do is fun although your way ahead of me as far knowing how to operate it but im getting there slowly. If my friend didnt smoke crack he definately got hold to something that has his head screwed up.His car is faster but my girlfriends hotter.Talk to you later.

If you're happy with it, then BE happy with it! Who cares what your "friend" thinks? This whole competitiveness thing sounds pretty childish. The performance differences between receivers is laughable compared to the differences that you will actually hear with speakers and room acoustics. If you got better speakers and better controlled acoustics in your room, then your system will sound better than his, no matter if it's powered by an Onkyo or a Pioneer.

Once you got your system setup properly then it will likely sound better than his, because the vast majority of the home theaters out there are far from optimal. And when comparing receivers, a properly setup system will almost always sound better than one that's less than optimally setup. Learn to use the functions, read up on room acoustics, buy a SPL meter and do some level matching, try to setup you speakers in the proper position, etc.

[Dmax]

If you're happy with it, then BE happy with it! Who cares what your "friend" thinks? This whole competitiveness thing sounds pretty childish. The performance differences between receivers is laughable compared to the differences that you will actually hear with speakers and room acoustics. If you got better speakers and better controlled acoustics in your room, then your system will sound better than his, no matter if it's powered by an Onkyo or a Pioneer.

Once you got your system setup properly then it will likely sound better than his, because the vast majority of the home theaters out there are far from optimal. And when comparing receivers, a properly setup system will almost always sound better than one that's less than optimally setup. Learn to use the functions, read up on room acoustics, buy a SPL meter and do some level matching, try to setup you speakers in the proper position, etc.

Thanx for the great advice ! Hard at work at it.