Anyone else hate 120hz LCD video?

[natronforever]

So guys,

I sincerely hope I'm not alone in expressing my complete distaste for 120hz video processing in LCD TVs today. I'm completely baffled as to why anybody would want to watch a movie with it active. It makes everything look wildly unnatural, and completely destroys the "film" feel of the movie. Also, it makes the film look like it was shot with a $200 camcorder. It's so bad, that I can't even understand why any manufacturer could look at such processing and not scrap the whole idea. Even on expensive Sony sets that I've seen, it just looks awful, at least with movies.

Now, I'm a plasma guy (and happily so), but does anybody have an LCD with 120hz processing that they enjoy? I suppose we're each entitled to our opinion on what looks good and sounds good, but I was just curious if anybody actually prefers to watch their movies with 120hz processing turned on. If anybody actually likes it, I'd be curious as to why you like it. I don't have to live with it every day, so maybe it's something that just grows on you. Who knows?

[elapsed]

What model and size LCD? Have you calibrated your set, or it using the defaults out of the box? What is your viewing distance?

The new 240Hz sets look outstanding, they are able to show 30fps or 24fps content without skipping frames or changing the speed of playback. I've also been impressed with the 120Hz sets I've seen from Tier 1 manufacturers (Samsung, Sharp, Sony), once calibrated.

cheers,
elapsed

[Woochifer]

You're not alone. Some reviewers have begun making note of this as well, even going as far as switching off the 120 Hz motion interpolation feature for their viewing tests.

I don't think that the issues you're noting are inherent to the 120 Hz refresh rate, but with how most LCD manufacturers combine the higher refresh rate with motion interpolation. The motion interpolation basically processes the video to "fill in the blanks" on film-based material in order to smooth out the moving images. Indeed, the 120 Hz LCD sets have higher motion resolution than the 60 Hz sets when the motion interpolation is turned on. But, only those few 120 Hz LCD sets that also use sequential LED backlighting approach the motion resolution performance of even low end plasma TVs.

On a 24 fps source (which most movies are), in a nutshell this means that a 120 Hz TV that uses motion interpolation is displaying one native frame followed by four interpolated frames. This isn't simply displaying something at a higher rate, the TV's video processor actually creates 80% of the images that the TV displays. If a movie looks fake, this might be why.

Even Panasonic uses motion interpolation (they call it Intelligent Frame Creation) on its higher end plasma TVs, and reviewers have roundly panned it and recommend that people leave the feature turned off. Fortunately, the motion interpolation feature can be switched off, but the measured motion resolution on the LCD sets goes down in the process (and ironically goes up on plasma sets).

[pixelthis]

tHE BEST way to look at blu ray is with any interpolation off and the player set to 24fps.
The player puts out 72fps( three of each frame) which adds up to 72(24x3)
A set described as 24p ready will display this and it looks great.
I saw one 120hz set that blew my socks off, the rest I am not too impressed.
The reason I like 1080p is that it simply deinterlaces 1080i, no playing with the signal,
and improves 1080i like it improves 480i.
Interpolation of anything is going to be kinda rough, we are talking heavy proccessors
involved, and the tech just isnt that good yet.
As for four of each frame for 24p thats just silly, why do that when you can just show three
of each? You will get better results. Odds are that interpolation defaults to "off" when a 24p signal (72hz) is coming in.
Thats what will give the best result.

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't seen it yet but when I first read about it they didn't say anything about recreating. The idea was to divide evenly the number of frames per second to eliminate the need for 3:2 pull down. You'd always have an even number of frames. Looked good on paper. Now I see as Wooch was saying there are computer generated frames between. It's going to be another one of those things that divide camps, some like "judder" which make film look like film and others will like the more stable video look of 120hz. Seems the application of 120hz does introduce artifacts but this is predicted to get better in time as technology developes. .I read one review that said Sony did a good job with their application of the 120hz.

[Woochifer]

I haven't seen it yet but when I first read about it they didn't say anything about recreating. The idea was to divide evenly the number of frames per second to eliminate the need for 3:2 pull down. You'd always have an even number of frames. Looked good on paper. Now I see as Wooch was saying there are computer generated frames between. It's going to be another one of those things that divide camps, some like "judder" which make film look like film and others will like the more stable video look of 120hz. Seems the application of 120hz does introduce artifacts but this is predicted to get better in time as technology developes. .I read one review that said Sony did a good job with their application of the 120hz.

120 Hz TVs can eliminate the need for 3:2 pulldown by simply using frame repeating (5:5). I believe that after switching the motion interpolation off, a 120 Hz TV still refreshes at that rate, so it can go to frame repeating as a default. In theory, 5:5 frame repeating would also reduce the juddering that 3:2 pulldown creates. But, the motion resolution on 120 Hz LCD sets apparently drops down to typical 60 Hz levels when the motion interpolation gets switched off.

Still though, some reviewers find this preferable to the artifacts that they've noted when the motion interpolation is on, so it's all a tradeoff. I agree with you that this is probably contingent on the quality of the video processor, and this obviously varies from TV to TV.

[atomicAdam]

not to tip off the conversation down a tangent, but, if they repeat frames in video, do they repeat audio as well?

[GMichael]

I sure hope not.

[kexodusc]

not to tip off the conversation down a tangent, but, if they repeat frames in video, do they repeat audio as well?

Data stream is processed by a separately I believe, though I've even heard people complain about 120 Hz synch problems after an hour or so into movies? Never experienced it myself so I dunno????

I like my projector.

[Mr Peabody]

I believe that something similar is used for digital music in the error correction area. If the decoder can't tell if it is receiving a 1 or 0 due to damage to the signal or not being able to be read properly off a disc the decoder will do some kind of math to guess which it is. This isn't repeating anything per say and the 120hz sees the starting point and ending point but fills in a center point. I think this may be what you were asking though.

[natronforever]

What model and size LCD? Have you calibrated your set, or it using the defaults out of the box? What is your viewing distance?

The new 240Hz sets look outstanding, they are able to show 30fps or 24fps content without skipping frames or changing the speed of playback. I've also been impressed with the 120Hz sets I've seen from Tier 1 manufacturers (Samsung, Sharp, Sony), once calibrated.

cheers,
elapsed

Oh, I don't have an LCD. I have a plasma. But I can always spot a 120hz TV - even from "Tier 1" manufacturers. I don't think calibration has anything to do with it. It's the fluidity of motion with the 120hz processing that looks so unnatural that bothers me most. Besides, I'm colorblind, so appropriate calibration is likely lost on me anyway.

[Woochifer]

Oh, I don't have an LCD. I have a plasma. But I can always spot a 120hz TV - even from "Tier 1" manufacturers. I don't think calibration has anything to do with it. It's the fluidity of motion with the 120hz processing that looks so unnatural that bothers me most. Besides, I'm colorblind, so appropriate calibration is likely lost on me anyway.

Saw a demo of one Samsung's new LED LCD models last week, and their Auto Motion Plus interpolation feature must have turned to maximum because the picture looked incredibly strange -- stranger than any of the other 120 Hz demos I've seen. The TV was playing a Blu-ray of Speed Racer, which in itself has an inherently fake look to it. In general, it looked like the picture got separated into two layers, with stationary objects on one layer and the moving objects on another. The stationary objects looked fine, but the moving objects look like they were superimposed or otherwise didn't belong in the picture.

[Woochifer]

I found another interesting bit of info (unconfirmed) on the AVS Forum indicating that most of last year's 120 Hz LCD sets actually used 3:2 pulldown and THEN applied 2:2 frame doubling when the motion interpolation was turned off. This means that those sets did not do anything about the juddering that accompanies 3:2 pulldown. Only Sony's 120 Hz TVs used the correct 5:5 pulldown. Most manufacturers have supposedly fixed this on their newer models.

PC Magazine is also reporting that among this year's upcoming 240 Hz LCD sets, only the higher end models from Sony and Samsung use an actual 240 Hz refresh rate. This is because the motion interpolation processing at 240 Hz requires two separate video processing chips, which bumps up the price considerably. All of the other 240 Hz LCD sets coming out apparently combine 120 Hz panels with a scanning backlight that operates at 240 Hz. While the advanced backlight supposedly improves the picture quality while keeping costs down, it also apparently has the side effect of reducing the brightness by 50%.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338779,00.asp

[Mr Peabody]

That's some side effect.

[Woochifer]

That's some side effect.

Yep, sounds like those manufacturers are trying to pump up the spec sheets with a half-baked implementation of 240 Hz.

As that article mentions, a true 240 Hz TV currently needs two processors to handle the motion interpolation. Strobing the backlight obviously costs a lot less, and is a rather deceptive way of touting 240 Hz, especially if it winds up cutting the brightness in half (and thus negating LCD's biggest advantage). It's very deceptive because the higher end Sony and Samsung TVs that have a true 240 Hz screen refresh are thrown in with the other "240 Hz" TVs. Hopefully, this is only a temporary transitional stage until video processors that can handle a native 240 Hz refresh rate begin to come out.

If that info about the 3:2+2:2 pulldown on many of last year's 120 Hz LCD sets is true, that was another half-baked feature that was rushed to market. That too would be quite deceptive because one of the purported advantages of 120 Hz is eliminating the judder on 3:2 pulldown by using 5:5 frame repeating. If TV manufacturers were attaining 120 Hz by applying 3:2 pulldown plus 2:2 frame repeating, then they did not eliminate the judder. Supposedly, the newer sets have fixed this issue, but thousands of consumers got stuck with TVs that did not live up to their billing.

[gcortes]

So guys,

I sincerely hope I'm not alone in expressing my complete distaste for 120hz video processing in LCD TVs today. I'm completely baffled as to why anybody would want to watch a movie with it active. It makes everything look wildly unnatural, and completely destroys the "film" feel of the movie. Also, it makes the film look like it was shot with a $200 camcorder. It's so bad, that I can't even understand why any manufacturer could look at such processing and not scrap the whole idea. Even on expensive Sony sets that I've seen, it just looks awful, at least with movies.

Now, I'm a plasma guy (and happily so), but does anybody have an LCD with 120hz processing that they enjoy? I suppose we're each entitled to our opinion on what looks good and sounds good, but I was just curious if anybody actually prefers to watch their movies with 120hz processing turned on. If anybody actually likes it, I'd be curious as to why you like it. I don't have to live with it every day, so maybe it's something that just grows on you. Who knows?

Great Point!!!

I agree, 120Hz or 240Hz TVs even though they are offered as the most innovative systems I believe sometimes are unnecessary technology. I also think that they make seem some scenes look unnatural (or way to natural which feels odd) or with excessive realism, specially on Sci-Fi movies, and also some regular movies, the feeling of 120Hz or 240Hz is way to real that does not look like an entertaining movie any more and in Sci-Fi/Fantasy movies you can distinguish more easily CGI to natural scenes and you loose the immersion feeling out of the movie.

I would be happy if most newer TVs would allow you to switch back to 60Hz.

For example I would love to keep 120Hz or even better 240Hz on my favorite sports to feel the super-realism of it.

But Sci-Fi/Fantasy movies I would like to switch back to 60Hz as it makes me feel more immersed into the movie without noticing the CGI or feeling the acting of the characters as unnatural.

This is my reason to agree to the oddness of 120Hz-240Hz