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  1. #51
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    What sort of improvement do you notice with your amp using the Wiremold power strip vs. going direct?

    rw
    A layer of distortion has been removed, the full system sounds more controlled and more powerful, music sounds very smooth. There's more music to hear, you can actually hear more detail interestingly enough. This was noticable immediately after powering back up, but has improved more this morning after my system has sufficiently warmed up. Very impressed.

  2. #52
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    A layer of distortion has been removed, the full system sounds more controlled and more powerful, music sounds very smooth. There's more music to hear, you can actually hear more detail interestingly enough. This was noticable immediately after powering back up, but has improved more this morning after my system has sufficiently warmed up. Very impressed.
    I confess that's pretty amazing for a power strip that doesn't attempt to address any noise/RFI issues. And to think the manufacturer only pitches the product as a convenient way to extend power!

    rw

  3. #53
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Funny thing was I purchased off a reputable electronics components company, who have no idea the power strip is used in hifi systems, as far as they're concerned its just a high quality, hospital-grade power strip.

    I should note that the improvements weren't dramatic, just many areas had a small but noticable improvement.

  4. #54
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=E-Stat]Exactly how is it you know this about my systems?

    Well, being an electrostatics fan its a pretty good guess that you like to complicate
    the hell outta stuff unnessesarrily, but unless you bought your system on mars,
    its going to have standard parts and engineering , and interferrence is something that,
    while still a small problem in certain instances has largely been dealt with, its certainly not the bugaboo that snake oil salesmen make it out to be when selling "power " conditioners

    I'll put the pieces together for you. Remember this statement?

    ...and generate hardly any RF

    Which isnt incompatible with what I said, they DO hardly generate any RF, it just doesnt take much to send a signal to an off channel AM radio

    Actually, many do. Relevance? You mean other than the obvious isolation ?


    But they still feed spurious noise back into the AC. Your electrical theory goes only so far.

    Yep, which most modern devices handle fine. I was around during the eighties, when interferrence from the procs in CD players were a real problem, compared to that they are
    hardly an issue anymore.
    AND I hope you and the ten other people listening to AM radio enjoy yourselves
    rw
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  5. #55
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=pixelthis]
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ...its going to have standard parts and engineering , and interferrence is something that, while still a small problem in certain instances has largely been dealt with...
    You're completely missing the point. The source noise in my environment is generated by two wireless access points, router, two desktop computers, computerized microwave oven, computerized washing machine/drying cabinet, four wireless phones, three digital cable boxes, light dimmers, etc.

    rw

  6. #56
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    Almost everything plugged into your homes electrical system will introduce noise. There isn't any filtering on florescent lights. Appliances and small electronics have no reason and don't want to add the expense of filtering the power, especially what travels back out.

    I admit I'm not an EE, so therefore I can't break it down for you, but I do know what has worked for me. All of these items are not snake oil. Like I said before it is something that each person has to try in there particular home and set up to see if the benefit is worth the asking price. A $200.00 power cord took my CD player and phono stage up a notch, considering what these items cost new and what the cost to better them with new electronics would be, I consider the $200.00 darn well spent. I am thoroughly convinced in power cord upgrades.

    As far as power outlet devices go, if you've paid attention to others posts here, my previous comments have held true. You have to know what these things do and you can't make a blanket statement about them. They can be very beneficial used correctly.

    Pix, you should order the PS Audio DVD. This thing is more like a documentary and will show you how impurities get into electricity.

  7. #57
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Almost everything plugged into your homes electrical system will introduce noise. There isn't any filtering on florescent lights. Appliances and small electronics have no reason and don't want to add the expense of filtering the power, especially what travels back out.

    I admit I'm not an EE, so therefore I can't break it down for you, but I do know what has worked for me. All of these items are not snake oil. Like I said before it is something that each person has to try in there particular home and set up to see if the benefit is worth the asking price. A $200.00 power cord took my CD player and phono stage up a notch, considering what these items cost new and what the cost to better them with new electronics would be, I consider the $200.00 darn well spent. I am thoroughly convinced in power cord upgrades.

    As far as power outlet devices go, if you've paid attention to others posts here, my previous comments have held true. You have to know what these things do and you can't make a blanket statement about them. They can be very beneficial used correctly.

    Pix, you should order the PS Audio DVD. This thing is more like a documentary and will show you how impurities get into electricity.

    Is that DVD from PS Audio free ??? I think I signed up for something from them before that was "free" and it never arrived.

  8. #58
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    Absolutely free, if still available, go to www.amusicdirect.com

  9. #59
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=E-Stat]
    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    You're completely missing the point. The source noise in my environment is generated by two wireless access points, router, two desktop computers, computerized microwave oven, computerized washing machine/drying cabinet, four wireless phones, three digital cable boxes, light dimmers, etc.

    rw
    YOU are the one missing the "point", everything you mentioned is
    AIRBORNE. No way is a "power conditioner" going to catch it, hell, it could introduce itself at the output of said conditioner.
    If anything says "wireless" I ask myself if its absolutely nessesary, a lot of times its not.
    When you buy some cables, etc, check the package where it says sheilded.
    That means that most RF wont make it through, in any event a "power conditioner"
    will be next to useless, no replacement for carefull system layout, and cord running.
    My "wires" look a little sloppy, but closer inspection shows that the power strip
    (a 200$ monster monster) is away from the cable and data cables. Some stuff crosses but nothing I will be using at the same time.
    And say what you want about monster, they are a value way of putting a system together
    and work well.
    I don't buy cables for "sonic" properties, thats a delusion I leave to others.
    One thing is key, is it well sheilded? Gold plate? A decent guage? Cool looking?
    Reasonable price? And I have never had any problems with gremlins in the system
    (knock on wood).
    And all of that stuff youi mentioned has adequate sheilding, if your having problems call an electrician. I'm not kidding, they can work wonders (like putting a standalone power box to feed your system)
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  10. #60
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    ONE more thing, even christmas tree lights now have procs that run higher than the range of human hearing, a lot of what you mentioned operates in the GHZ range, so if it does interfere, you probably wont hear it.
    ALL of that RF crap you're throwing in the air will probably give you cancer before it interferes with your stuff
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  11. #61
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    YOU are the one missing the "point", everything you mentioned is
    AIRBORNE.
    The noise such devices introduces to the AC line is most certainly not limited to airborne effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    I don't buy cables for "sonic" properties, thats a delusion I leave to others.
    Depends upon your definition of "sonic properties". When one needs low capacitance cable, then "sonic properties" come into play. Shielded (not sheilded) cables can be of benefit in many real world systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    And all of that stuff youi mentioned has adequate sheilding, if your having problems call an electrician. I'm not kidding, they can work wonders (like putting a standalone power box to feed your system)
    You must be joking.

    rw

  12. #62
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The noise such devices introduces to the AC line is most certainly not limited to airborne effects.


    Depends upon your definition of "sonic properties". When one needs low capacitance cable, then "sonic properties" come into play. Shielded (not sheilded) cables can be of benefit in many real world systems.


    You must be joking.

    rw
    JUST trying to explain something to someone who is clueless.
    Just what kind of "interferrence" is a 5.2 ghz signal going to introduce into a power line
    that a human can hear ? Thats a portable phone.
    And most of the other stuff is in the ghz range.
    I work in a hospital with a cell phone tower across the street.
    Seems like if anybody had trouble with interferrence it would be them, but their standalone
    "med net" doesnt seem to suffer, nor their cable, internet, or other systems.
    Know how many computers, routers, etc are in such a place? Nurses walking down the hall talking on the phone, portable monitors, etc.
    I LEARNED LONG AGO that hi-fi HT types are vunerable to delusions put toward them
    by unscrupulous types, which is bad enough, but everytime I SEE some pimply
    faced "sales associate" selling the latest peice of voodoo to some aging audiophile
    with no discernment I wanna hurl.
    Its their money, but that makes me out to be an idiot by associaton.
    Unless theres a special problem (like when I lived down the street from a taxicab stand)
    well sheilded cables and proper planning are all you will need, in most cases.
    But if you want to pay good cash on stuff that probably isn't there, and that you couldn't
    hear or see even if it was, then be my guest.
    I'd rather spend my cash on gear and movies
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  13. #63
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    JUST trying to explain something to someone who is clueless.
    Just what kind of "interferrence" is a 5.2 ghz signal going to introduce into a power line
    that a human can hear ?
    You continue to miss the point. Any device with a switching power supply adds noise to the power line. Take a scope and have a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Thats a portable phone.
    Actually, mine operate at 49 mhz, 900 mhz, and 2.4 ghz. Not talking about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    ...well sheilded...
    Still cannot spell the word I see.

    rw

  14. #64
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    JUST trying to explain something to someone who is clueless.
    Just what kind of "interferrence" is a 5.2 ghz signal going to introduce into a power line
    that a human can hear ? Thats a portable phone.
    And most of the other stuff is in the ghz range.
    I work in a hospital with a cell phone tower across the street.
    Seems like if anybody had trouble with interferrence it would be them, but their standalone
    "med net" doesnt seem to suffer, nor their cable, internet, or other systems.
    Know how many computers, routers, etc are in such a place? Nurses walking down the hall talking on the phone, portable monitors, etc.
    I LEARNED LONG AGO that hi-fi HT types are vunerable to delusions put toward them
    by unscrupulous types, which is bad enough, but everytime I SEE some pimply
    faced "sales associate" selling the latest peice of voodoo to some aging audiophile
    with no discernment I wanna hurl.
    Its their money, but that makes me out to be an idiot by associaton.
    Unless theres a special problem (like when I lived down the street from a taxicab stand)
    well sheilded cables and proper planning are all you will need, in most cases.
    But if you want to pay good cash on stuff that probably isn't there, and that you couldn't
    hear or see even if it was, then be my guest.
    I'd rather spend my cash on gear and movies
    You better start showing some respect to our moderator, he knows his stuff and has the knowledge to prove it, plus loads of experience. Instead of running your little rants you might want to read what he says and you might learn something from it, then you can pass that knowledge off to those you meet in the future, rather than plaguing this site with your misguided, unexperienced, and ridiculous posts that only show just how little you know.

  15. #65
    Forum Regular jim goulding's Avatar
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    Pix- You still at it? Did you come here with that chip on your shoulder or did you just see a role you could play? I'm thinking you're relishing being the resident provocateur. Anyway, I don't personally use any line filtering or RF control other than some ferrite collars on my interconnects that cost about five bucks total and I only do that as a precaution cause I don't hear anything from it but I know a guy that put a seroius product on his TV and says that he improved his picture by a league or something. He went on to do his hifi rig and swears by this stuff. I'm tempted to plug my active speakers into one of these when and if I can find something well regarded by users and that I can afford. Who here has some practical expereince?
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  16. #66
    Audio Hobbyist Since 1969 Glen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    You better start showing some respect to our moderator
    The policies here at AR are pretty liberal and tolerant. There's another forum where just "rolling your eyes" at a moderator will get you banned.

  17. #67
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen B
    The policies here at AR are pretty liberal and tolerant. There's another forum where just "rolling your eyes" at a moderator will get you banned.
    As a mod, I just look for uncalled for personal attacks. Calling me "clueless" is pretty benign especially when that individual has zero experience with that which I'm discussing. Like another poster with whom I had a similar discussion a while back. While "Woodman" was a veteran electronics tech (likely like pix), he had absolutely zero experience with aftermarket power cords. Here was his belief: "Likewise, the A-C power cord can have no effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic component ... none. "

    Sadly, he couldn't understand the mechanisms so they didn't exist. And he necessarily couldn't benefit (however slightly) from using that which he couldn't imagine should or does work.

    rw

  18. #68
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    As a mod, I just look for uncalled for personal attacks. Calling me "clueless" is pretty benign especially when that individual has zero experience with that which I'm discussing. Like another poster with whom I had a similar discussion a while back. While "Woodman" was a veteran electronics tech (likely like pix), he had absolutely zero experience with aftermarket power cords. Here was his belief: "Likewise, the A-C power cord can have no effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic component ... none. "

    Sadly, he couldn't understand the mechanisms so they didn't exist. And he necessarily couldn't benefit (however slightly) from using that which he couldn't imagine should or does work.

    rw
    YEAH ,I know absolutely nothing about it, just been in the hobby since I was 12, had three years of electronics training, and was pretty knowledgeable before I got out to go into law enforcement.
    In the thirty eight years I have enjoyed this hobby I have never seen a "power conditioner"
    do any good whatsoever, double blind tests consistently confirm this.
    When CD players came out you had to be careful about placement, sometimes you could hear the proc working if it was on your VCR or near your receiver, but those days are gone.
    Doesnt matter what "inpurities" are introduced into a system if you can't hear them,
    and unless your a canine you wont hear much of anything past 14 khz if you're a prodigy,
    most don't hear anything past 12 or so.
    I went through some tough times awhile back, had to pay attention to what was coming into my system, so I know what I'M talking about, one reason I switched to monster
    cable was that they seem better sheilded than the cheap crap I was using.
    As for switching power supplies, give me a break, if you can "hear " any noise from one of these then its a cheap piece of crap , do you have any cheap pieces of crap in your system?
    My home built computer sits NEXT to my receiver, stays on 24/7, NEVER HEAR A PEEP OUT OF IT.
    But really, the condescension on this board, you think I don't know anything because I disagree with you?
    Maybe instead of beleiving you I would rather beleive the thousands of articles and experts who claim , after using scientific methods, that these and other such gimmicks are snake
    oil. I have never seen any article where blindfolded people could tell the difference.
    So , you say, you might not be able to "tell" but it will color your music.
    Anything will "color" your music, the biggest influence being your speakers.
    Again, a lot of deluded types are more than happy to snap up the latest idea from the copper mining industry to push more copper, and if in your imagination this makes a "difference" in your system, them more "power " to ya.
    I would much rather spend my somewhat limited budget on things that MATTER
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  19. #69
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    You better start showing some respect to our moderator, he knows his stuff and has the knowledge to prove it, plus loads of experience. Instead of running your little rants you might want to read what he says and you might learn something from it, then you can pass that knowledge off to those you meet in the future, rather than plaguing this site with your misguided, unexperienced, and ridiculous posts that only show just how little you know.
    NOBODY asked your opinion, if you don't have anything meaningfull to add,
    (and you usually don't) then why don't you BUTT OUT
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  20. #70
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    REALLY, the heat you get when you threaten the little myths that some "audiophiles"
    adhere to, usually quite blindly
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  21. #71
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    In the thirty eight years I have enjoyed this hobby I have never seen a "power conditioner"
    do any good whatsoever, double blind tests consistently confirm this.
    As for me, I prefer to listen to the results.

    DBTs test what they test. Problem is they rarely if ever test the kinds of products I've used. Laboratory results are llikewise next to useless because the noise issues are location specific. My experience differs from yours. Further, I suspect that you have not heard the products I have nor used any aftermarket power cords. Vocational electronics courses don't begin to address this topic.

    The differences I hear are indeed subtle, but there. The highest frequencies are softer and free from a kind of hash that makes things sound grainier. There is a quieter background. You get more resolution at the PP end of the dynamics spectrum.

    rw

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    Well here's an interesting twist... the power conditioner that worked so well for me with my ANALOG cd player into a Yamaha receiver DEGRADED the sound of my new Marantz system hooked up digitally to my universal player with HDMI! BUT, the digital filters of the Monster 3600 conditioner worked great for the HDTV. So... on a hunch I hooked up the A/V receiver to one of the dedicated outlets for DIGITAL sources (cd, dvd, sat, etc.) and viola! Sounds perfect! It seems since I was using an analog source before, the analog filter built into the receiver outlet circuit on the 3600 worked fine but not if you're feeding your receiver a direct digital source, then it just degraded the sound. The digital filtering was the key and I wasted half my day frustrated trying to get that perfect sound until I figured this out! Hope this can help someone.

    Have FUN!

    G

  23. #73
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    As for me, I prefer to listen to the results.

    DBTs test what they test. Problem is they rarely if ever test the kinds of products I've used. Laboratory results are llikewise next to useless because the noise issues are location specific. My experience differs from yours. Further, I suspect that you have not heard the products I have nor used any aftermarket power cords. Vocational electronics courses don't begin to address this topic.

    The differences I hear are indeed subtle, but there. The highest frequencies are softer and free from a kind of hash that makes things sound grainier. There is a quieter background. You get more resolution at the PP end of the dynamics spectrum.

    rw
    HEY , IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY.
    But getting a spurious signal through todays power supplies isn't easy.
    AND "vocational" classes don't deal with this kind of stuff, too busy dealing with
    REALITY.
    I mean, isn't this expensive enough a hobby without inventing things to waste your money
    on?
    For my last years "project" I built a three stage FET amp on a little circuit board out of a kit, the power supply was on the board, a little transformer and a few diodes, capacitors,
    etc, hooked it up to an old "superhet" FM radio and listened to it for years, with no trouble whatsoever.
    But I will concede one point, decent sheilding and a decent power strip can't hurt, if you're spending big bucks on a system why not?
    But most "power " conditioners , if they do do anything (which I doubt) just arent worth the money. Most modern power supplies have a metal cage or sit outside a device, and the power in this country is cleaner than the residents deserve.
    AS for power cords, all they are is a larger guage of copper, after the power hits your power supply it will change a lot more than what that power cord will do to it,
    what is most worrisome is data cables, if you get any interferrence it will be there,
    but most power supplies will filter out anything in the power before it even gets to your system
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  24. #74
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    HEY , IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY.
    But getting a spurious signal through todays power supplies isn't easy.
    AND "vocational" classes don't deal with this kind of stuff, too busy dealing with
    REALITY.
    I mean, isn't this expensive enough a hobby without inventing things to waste your money
    on?
    For my last years "project" I built a three stage FET amp on a little circuit board out of a kit, the power supply was on the board, a little transformer and a few diodes, capacitors,
    etc, hooked it up to an old "superhet" FM radio and listened to it for years, with no trouble whatsoever.
    But I will concede one point, decent sheilding and a decent power strip can't hurt, if you're spending big bucks on a system why not?
    But most "power " conditioners , if they do do anything (which I doubt) just arent worth the money. Most modern power supplies have a metal cage or sit outside a device, and the power in this country is cleaner than the residents deserve.
    AS for power cords, all they are is a larger guage of copper, after the power hits your power supply it will change a lot more than what that power cord will do to it,
    what is most worrisome is data cables, if you get any interferrence it will be there,
    but most power supplies will filter out anything in the power before it even gets to your system
    Why are you so worried about how others spend their money? It would seem that you are jealous or envious of those who want to spend money on this hobby. People are entitled to spend money how they wish and we don't need you trying to put us down for spending money on certain things just because you choose not to.

  25. #75
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    Why are you so worried about how others spend their money? It would seem that you are jealous or envious of those who want to spend money on this hobby. People are entitled to spend money how they wish and we don't need you trying to put us down for spending money on certain things just because you choose not to.
    I am not worried about how others spend their money, IF they are well informed.
    Someone new to this stuff needs to know that there are those who will spend
    thousands on "improvements" that produce no real audio or video improvement
    whatsoever. Some "newbies" might get the idea that junk like "power conditioners"
    and pet rocks on your speakers are usefull.
    BUT if you're an oldtimer and been around awhile and should know better than by all means go ahead and waste your money, shysters need to make a living too.
    Thinking that "power cords" and "power conditioners" will have anything to do with your sound is silly to anyone who knows the basics about electronics.
    Its the electronic version of Aquafina, which turned out to be tap water.
    But the rational crowd, who understands a little somethin somethin about how things work
    and what I call the "heads in the clouds" crowd, who talk about stuff like how a
    power cord makes sound "darker" are always going to be at odds about this stuff.
    So by all means waste your coin on the latest hula hoop, help keep the economy going.
    I'll just sit back and watch movies I bought with MY money.
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    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

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