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  1. #26
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Nelson Pass makes the same recommendation for his larger amps. Use the Adobe search tool to locate the word "conditioner":

    XA 100.5

    I simply cannot imagine someone wanting to run their high current amplifiers through yet another device and power cord. My VTL amps draw 10 amps each at full output. Ideally, I would have a dedicated line just for the amps, but my older home construction prevented me from recently having additional lines added by an electrician. Apparently, there are stacks of 2x4s forming a firewall that prevented him from being able to drop a line from the ceiling.

    rw
    Now that you say that I think MBL says the same thing and I am sure many of the other high-end gear, which unless that company also makes "conditioners" and such, it does seem that the gear is ready to go direct.

  2. #27
    Forum Regular DEVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Nelson Pass makes the same recommendation for his larger amps. Use the Adobe search tool to locate the word "conditioner":

    XA 100.5

    I simply cannot imagine someone wanting to run their high current amplifiers through yet another device and power cord. My VTL amps draw 10 amps each at full output. Ideally, I would have a dedicated line just for the amps, but my older home construction prevented me from recently having additional lines added by an electrician. Apparently, there are stacks of 2x4s forming a firewall that prevented him from being able to drop a line from the ceiling.

    rw
    I didn't say it wasn't true, but good research by the way! 10 amp per...WOW! My entire system w/ plasma included only puts out about 5 amps peak. I don't want to look at your electric bill.

    But, what you were speaking of earlier was receivers, cd players, etc. Power conditioners will not effect the way they operate as much as say a Krell or any other high current amp would.

    Some are for marketing, but for the most part...they are for televisions and video products, to take out noise created by vacuum cleaners, fans, microwave ovens, cell phones, etc, etc, etc...

  3. #28
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEVO
    But, what you were speaking of earlier was receivers, cd players, etc. Power conditioners will not effect the way they operate as much as say a Krell or any other high current amp would.
    I was responding to poster "elapsed's" opinion they "will make the system worse in every case". I find that to be the case only with high current devices. Sources, TVs, and low current devices benefit from lowering the noise floor. Use the appropriate tool for the situation.

    rw

  4. #29
    Forum Regular codecougar's Avatar
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    Lots of good info here, but I am just as confused as when we started.

    I guess my main concern here is my LCD television and Blu-ray player and whether or not I would benefit from a power conditioner.


    elapsed, that Wiremold L10320 power strip looks really cool, but aren't you worried about power surges? Also, are you planning on plugging your tv into that as well ?

  5. #30
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Sure I'm worried about power surges.

    In any case here's what Naim North America (NANA) has to say on the topic of power conditioners:

    System Setup - Should I purchase a power conditioner or surge suppressor for my Naim Audio system?
    Many systems, in our experience, do not perform anywhere near the ultimate level of performance due to poor conditions regarding the system's electrical set-up. Surprisingly, just a few minutes of extra attention to the AC mains power for your system can unleash a great deal of extra music, at virtually no additional cost!

    DEDICATED CIRCUIT
    Do you have enough power to feed your system?

    The power supplies of Naim Audio equipment are deisgned to be among the largest, noise-free and most stable in the industry. You should provide your system with the most power possible--excess electrical capacity is important to making a great sound.

    It is ideal that the system have its own separate circuit and circuit breaker.

    Your electrician should install a dedicated 15 A circuit, complete with new wire, directly to your system. One dual (2) socket hospital-grade outlet is all that is necessary.

    The advantage of a dedicated circuit is that your system will not be sharing power directly with other appliances in your house on the same circuit. Tremendous distortion of the power wave may occur if the circuit shares power with a refrigerator or personal computer (or worse, a humidifier or heater). This can reduce the system's performance considerably.
    NOTE: Unlike many systems that use vacuum tubes or class-A circuit topologies, your Naim system uses very little quiescent power. The constant power demand of a Naim system is very small when played at normal levels, this advantage reflected in the extended longevity of Naim Audio equipment.

    Your Naim components will likely outlast other designs by a large margin!

    Outlet Strips
    Naim Audio North America strongly recommends, for use with our equipment, a dedicated outlet strip, without circuit breakers, switches, fuses, indicator lights or other passive components which will reduce a system's performance.

    We recommend the following items:

    CablePro Noisetrapper NANA 8-Outlet Power Strip ($349)
    available from http://www.thecablepro.com Eight industrial-spec grade, high-copper-content brass outlets for better conductivity
    Non-magnetic, aluminum-alloy chassis
    Cascade parallel wiring for hot and neutral connections
    Star-grounded to minimize noise
    12-gauge silver-plated oxygen-free-copper wiring
    Hardwired, shielded power cord



    Brooks/Wiremold L10320 (6' cable, $55) / L10321 (15' cable, $65) Outlet Strip
    available from your local Naim dealer Nine panel-mount brass outlets
    Non-magnetic, aluminum-alloy chassis
    Cascade parallel wiring for hot, neutral and ground connections
    12-gauge copper wiring with crimp connections
    6' or 15' stranded-copper power cord with molded plug



    Sequencing
    The order in which the components are plugged into the strip is critical. If you plug the power amplifier into the strip closest to the end where the strip power cord enters, and work your way back to the source component, you will get a much better sound. Here are some examples:

    A simple system:

    NAP 150x Power Amplifier
    FLATCAP2x Power Supply for NAC 112x Preamplifier
    CD5x Compact Disc Player
    Other sources, turntable, etc., in any order

    An SL2 active system:

    NAP 250 Power Amplifier
    NAP 250 Power Amplifier
    HICAP2 Power Supply for SNAXO 242 Active Crossover
    SUPERCAP2 Power Supply for NAC 282 Preamplifier
    XPS2 Power Supply for CDX2 Compact Disc Player
    In some cases, it may be preferable to plug the power amplifier directly into the wall socket.

    Because of the advantage of being able to control the order in which the components are plugged in, using a dedicated outlet strip is far superior to plugging all system components directly into a quad or double quad receptacle. Here are a couple more tips:

    Keep power wires separated from signal wires--do not bunch your power wires together, but keep them flowing as gracefully as possible (electricity does not flow effeciently around sharp corners and bends).
    Use only the Naim Audio power cords as supplied--they easily outperform even the most expensive power cords, and certainly any average cord.
    POWER CONDITIONERS
    Our customers often inquire about the purchase of a power conditioner suitable for a Naim Audio system.

    You absolutely do not need one--every power conditioner we know of reduces musical performance dramatically.

    Do not be fooled--power conditioners will make your system worse in every case. (A few will make one area a little better while ruining fifty other areas--that is the best case we have seen!)

    If the power is dirty, you can't improve it with a power conditioner without taking away some of the remaining quality and punch.

    LIGHTNING
    No power strip or conditioner can protect your system from lightning, your system's worst enemy.

    Lightning raises the voltage on the ground side of the line, and can not be protected against--except by unplugging the system during a storm.

    DISCLAIMER
    We will not guarantee the performance of the system with any power conditioner, line conditioner or computer-grade outlet strip.

    If you are not happy with your Naim system, please first try the recommended power setup described above. You should also refer to our SYSTEM SETUP GUIDE.

  6. #31
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Again, specific to Naim systems, but take a look at the inside of the power bar at the bottom of this page, yikes!

    http://members.shaw.ca/mikesae/powerbar.htm

  7. #32
    Forum Regular codecougar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Again, specific to Naim systems, but take a look at the inside of the power bar at the bottom of this page, yikes!

    http://members.shaw.ca/mikesae/powerbar.htm
    cool, thanks for all the info.

    as a side note, I called my uncle who has been an AV nut since the 60's and told him I was confused over whether or not to buy a power conditioner. he simply asked, "are you having any trouble with your gear". my response, "no". he then asked, "have you ever had any problems with your gear". my reply again was no and he basically said, "then you probably don't need one".

    so, I'm going to pass on the power conditioner for now.

    Thanks for all the input guys !!

  8. #33
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    I'd suggest anyone interested go to www.amusicdirect.com to see if the PS Audio DVD, The History of Electricity, is still available, it's free.

    This is not a "yes" & "no" question. To make a blanket statement that "NO" line conditioners work or are worth while is just not true. First, you have to know what the piece is supposed to do, power regulate, filter, surge protect etc. How much improvement or not depends on your electric company, how the service is delivered to your house, your houses wiring and what is plugged into your house's wiring.

    The bottomline is you have to decide what you want the piece to do and then just try it. When I first started playing with conditioners I tried a Transparent multi outlet box, I can't remember the model, but it clearly degraded my Krell's attack. On the other hand I tried their power cords and was so impressed I bought one for every replaceable cord I had in my system. Lower signal sources benefited the most, like my CD player and phono stage, the noise floor was reduced drastically. I didn't even realize I had noise until it was gone. All the sudden I hear more subtle detail and the background is blacker.

    A while back PS Audio came out with some new power products and I bought one to try, and again, I can't remember the name, I probably have it listed in my CP, anyway, it did not limit current, and new technology to filter and if the voltage goes up or down past the cutoff point, the unit will shut off to protect your gear. I have all my gear plugged into this unit and was thrilled with the improvement it made. Another member tried one based on my raves about the unit but his experience wasn't as great. You just have to try a piece and buy from a retailer that don't mind returns.

    From what I've read, voltage regulation, despite many companies claims, is nearly impossible to accomplish and when it is possible it would not be close to being affordable.

    Peoples different experiences with these types of products keeps the debate hot, much like upgrading inter connects. It's also a product one needs to research before jumping into, see what a unit says it will do. I don't think you will notice any difference from these basic outlet strips, to gain any improvement you have to get a unit that does provide filtering. High current pieces will need a unit with at least some outlets having unrestricted current flow, or, of course, it will make it sound worse, your choking it out. And, units that actually work are not going to be cheap. But considering the cost invested in today's home entertainment everyone should at least try these products to see if it does anything for you. The improvement I got was not subtle, I knew it was worth the money. It's also so easy to tell if it works, if you have to guess, or not sure, then it don't. Putting out the type of money some of these products cost the improvement should be apparent.

  9. #34
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually, you have this bass ackwards. I'll go out on a limb and suggest there are few third world homes that contain multitudes of computer controlled appliances, cable boxes, Tivos, wireless routers. etc. which either radiate RFI or spew it back through the AC. It is those devices that generate the noise power conditioning products address.

    rw
    You went out on the limb, now let me saw it off.
    Truth is, most "modern" appliances are well sheilded, and generate hardly any RF or
    electromagnetic junk.
    When CD players first came out they would generate interference, but that hasn't happened in awhile. When I was a kid everytime mom turned on the blender you could hear it through the TV, hardly ever anymore.
    My digital cable box is sitting over my CD player and never interferes with it, and vice versa.
    Most modern products have well designed power supplies, and the use of "wall warts"
    has cured a lot of problems. But the sellers of "power conditioners" love to scare
    the peoples with talk of that devil emf, anything to sell their latest version of snake oil.
    As for third world countries, they sell radios with cranks because the power can get rather unreliable in places, but I can't remember the last time the power went off at my house,
    and my computer sits right next to my receiver, you could never tell it.
    As for power cords... DONT GET ME STARTED
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  10. #35
    Forum Regular DEVO's Avatar
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    Truth is, most "modern" appliances are well sheilded, and generate hardly any RF or
    electromagnetic junk.
    Interesting...then why did I have to upgrade from the MRF100 radio frequency receiver to the MRF250 for my remote system? My cable box was spitting out way too much rf noize for the sensor to understand the data. The MRF250, you can adjust the individual sensor (cablebox) down and finally it was able to work?
    Last edited by DEVO; 10-11-2007 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #36
    Audio Hobbyist Since 1969 Glen B's Avatar
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    I also use a Belkin PF-60 with my HT system and highly recommend it.

  12. #37
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen B
    I also use a Belkin PF-60 with my HT system and highly recommend it.
    Me too and ditto!

  13. #38
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    I have a parasound hca-1000a amplifier, yamaha rx-v2300 receiver, sony xbr2 60" lcd tv, and a denon dvd player all plugged into a apc back-up es 350 model, maybe i shouldnt, let me know what you guys think, thanks....................i know that when start to turn on the equipment that damn thing starts to beep, it makes think its wimpy!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #39
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    One thing I failed to mention in my original reply was that when I plugged my receiver (Yamaha RX-V995) into the recommended receiver outlet of the Monster HTS 3600, the analog filter DID degrade the sound! Then I plugged it into the high current filter (recommended for amps) and it IMPROVED the sound. So beware if you're using an A/V receiver that has high current amps, you need to plug it in to the correct outlet or you can see the sound degradation which has already been brought up by others in this thread. Again tho, I can't say enough good things about them if you use the proper outlets for your system's needs. There is absolutely no audible background noise in my system and everything is much more defined/clear improving soundstage dramatically. Everyone's system needs and power sources are different tho so to each his own!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN

  15. #40
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    You can sure do a quick test, unplug your Parasound and plug into the wall socket directly. If your strip is hindering performance you should notice the amp having a more punchy bass and the overall sound a bit livelier. How dramatic the difference, if any, depends on how much the strip is limiting your amps current draw. You also have to be in tune with your system and know how it sounds normally to detect differences, that goes for any change you want to evaluate.

  16. #41
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    You can sure do a quick test, unplug your Parasound and plug into the wall socket directly. If your strip is hindering performance you should notice the amp having a more punchy bass and the overall sound a bit livelier. How dramatic the difference, if any, depends on how much the strip is limiting your amps current draw. You also have to be in tune with your system and know how it sounds normally to detect differences, that goes for any change you want to evaluate.
    Yep...very easy thing to test! Not sure why people make it complicated.

  17. #42
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    You went out on the limb, now let me saw it off.
    Or at least make an attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Truth is, most "modern" appliances are well sheilded, and generate hardly any RF or
    electromagnetic junk.
    This truth is based upon exactly what?

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    When CD players first came out they would generate interference, but that hasn't happened in awhile.
    Try this Pix. Take any CD player you please, even a battery powered unit and play it in the vicinity of an AM radio tuned off station. You'll hear the RFI.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Most modern products have well designed power supplies, and the use of "wall warts" has cured a lot of problems.
    Which has absolutely nothing to do with the common use of switching power supplies.

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    As for power cords... DONT GET ME STARTED
    Is that a promise?

    rw

  18. #43
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    I don't think anything Pix has would even allow for a power cord upgrade. Pix is your power cord issue based on experience or just what you suspect? I didn't believe just changing a power cord could do anything, when I brought home the Transparent multi outlet gizmo the dealer threw a power cord to me and told me to take that and try it too. So I did and it turned out to be a dramatic improvement. i tried it in a variety of my components. The outlet gizmo went back, I didn't like the effect but I kept that power cord and brought one home for everything in my system that would allow the upgrade.

  19. #44
    Forum Regular DEVO's Avatar
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    This gets off topic from power conditioning but from Mr. Peabody's statement...I agree, I have an Audioquest power cable NRG-5 that I replaced for my plasma. I could see an improvement in the colors and the 3D was amazing. If you have never seen it...or heard it...I guess it is snake oil. But don't bash it if you don't want it!
    I want to get another one for my Debth.

  20. #45
    cvc
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    Do you drink water from the tap? Can you taste the sea monkees? That's why I drink bottled water. Same thing with dirty electricity coming in to your system. Clean that crap up by using a line conditioner. I use 2 of these. These small power packs were recommended by the audiophile "man" Corey Greenberg. Your system will sound cleaner because the power is cleaner.

    http://www.audiopower.com/newsite/pp2.html

  21. #46
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Consider Power Conditioner as one of the tweaks.
    Tweaks only work because problems exist in ones envirnment. No need to worry about conditioning electricity, if it sounds the same from pluging it in straight into a wall socket. Just spend $300 on the Duet made by PS Audio from one of those online retainers. I got mine from Acoustic Sounds and ended up returning it, cuz there wasnt a problem in envinrnment to begin with.

    JRA

  22. #47
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by DEVO
    Interesting...then why did I have to upgrade from the MRF100 radio frequency receiver to the MRF250 for my remote system? My cable box was spitting out way too much rf noize for the sensor to understand the data. The MRF250, you can adjust the individual sensor (cablebox) down and finally it was able to work?
    All of these new wireless devices have inteferrence issues, but with each other.
    If your cable box is interferring with your stuff thats a completely seperate issue, the point is, is it showing up in the power? (NOT)
    and I have several devices (integra receiver) that have detachable cords, and they work fine with the cords provided, but if you want to shell out the cash, and buy something with enough copper to keep the mint supplied for years, go ahead.
    As for CD players interferring with AM radio, what does this have to do with power conditioners? Not to mention that if you tune an AM radio "off station you will hear
    just about ANYTHING that produces a spark. As for switching power supplies, anything that uses such should be well enough designed to not issue much interferrence.
    Most devices, even more advanced gear, just use the old step down transformer
    with filtering caps, etc, works fine for most applications.
    I AM NOT SAYING THAT there are "never" ANY INTERFERRENCE ISSUES, just that
    its not a big enough deal to spend several hundred dollars, when rearranging cables
    amd the like will cure most issues.
    AND if your HTis large enough you probably need a seperate breaker box for it, seperating it from your mundane house current and curing most problems at the start.
    And if not a simple power strip with minimal filtering and decently sheilded cables will cure most problems
    LG 42", integra 6.9, B&W 602s2, CC6 center, dm305rears, b&w
    sub asw2500
    Panny DVDA player
    sharp Aquos BLU player
    pronto remote, technics antique direct drive TT
    Samsung SACD/DVDA player
    emotiva upa-2 two channel amp

  23. #48
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    If your cable box is interferring with your stuff thats a completely seperate issue, the point is, is it showing up in the power? (NOT)
    Exactly how is it you know this about my systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    As for CD players interferring with AM radio, what does this have to do with power conditioners?
    I'll put the pieces together for you. Remember this statement?

    ...and generate hardly any RF

    Actually, many do. Relevance? You mean other than the obvious isolation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    As for switching power supplies, anything that uses such should be well enough designed to not issue much interferrence.
    But they still feed spurious noise back into the AC. Your electrical theory goes only so far.

    rw

  24. #49
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Recieved my $30 Wiremold L10320 power strip today, which is replacing my Belkin Heavy Duty surge protector. Immediate noticable improvement. In my setup I can attest that a high current amp will definately benefit from a quality power bar; no switches, no circuit breakers, no fuses, no line conditioning and no indicator lights. Highly recommend.

  25. #50
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Recieved my $30 Wiremold L10320 power strip today, which is replacing my Belkin Heavy Duty surge protector. Immediate noticable improvement. In my setup I can attest that a high current amp will definately benefit from a quality power bar; no switches, no circuit breakers, no fuses, no line conditioning and no indicator lights.
    What sort of improvement do you notice with your amp using the Wiremold power strip vs. going direct?

    rw

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