Any thoughts on power conditioners ?

[E-Stat]

Thinking that "power cords" and "power conditioners" will have anything to do with your sound is silly to anyone who knows the basics about electronics.

It's a shame your exposure to hearing high resolution systems is so limited.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

Yogi Berra

rw

[dingus]

in the end i dont care in the least what is measured, can or cannot be measured, or what goes along with or against conventional theories of electricity. i will always let my ears be the final judge. in my very limited experience with conditioners, i could detect no audible difference in sound, with or without the unit inline. that only means that the particular conditioner i used had no effect on the sound in my system.

if somebody tells me that something effects the sound of their system, i cannot corroborate or refute the claim unless i hear it for myself.

[Mr Peabody]

Power conditioners, upgraded power cords and higher quality cables can all have a positive effect on certain systems. Dingus said it well in his post. Although I have to say the article he posted a link to is rubbish, if we all don't have a 30 second worth of memory then we are lost. Anyway, not to get side tracked.

The nimrods like Pix who argue people would spend thousands of dollars on tweaks for no other reason than to have them for show or we are so stupid we can get psyched out into believing something works when it don't and they are the only intelligent people in the world who can see through the fog are beyond foolish. In fact, so foolish that they will be deprived of any of these products because they are closed minded and if they did use any of them, they'd have to admit they were WRONG. It's even more astounding when those who are familiar with audio take a stance similar to Pix because they should very well know that not all things related to sound quality can be measured.

In my case there are a few holes in Pix's warped out theory. All of the products I tried there was no money paid until after I tried the product, so I didn't have to justify anything. Most of my aftermarket cables and my power conditioner are not visible unless I took some one over and pointed these things out behind my shelving and TV, so I wasted my money on hi fi bling there. Some products I tried were returned, so I guess I was hypnotized only part of the time. The problem I have with articles like Dingus posted and the other naysayers, who do so just for attention, say we can't tell any difference, our memory of what we heard is too short etc. it's crap, if some one can't tell if one way has more bass or more detail than another way, then how can anything be evaluated. If I can't tell if one power cord makes a difference over another, then how can I tell if one CD player, or anything else has a difference. We might as well buy the cheapest shtuff and forget about it. None of these arguments naysayers of these upgrades holds water because the same senses we use to evaluate any hi fi gear are used when we evaluate the upgrade. Either there is an effect, or not. What's the big magic trick?

All I can say is I hope each person tries upgrades for themselves, and if one don't work, don't close the door because maybe the next one will.

A big key is whether the system with the added tweak has the resolution to show any difference. Since 99% of the misguided people on this board believe that speakers are the most important link in a system and least expense is their source, I doubt if resolution is part of their listening life. But don't let me mix my pet peevs.

[pixelthis]

Power conditioners, upgraded power cords and higher quality cables can all have a positive effect on certain systems. Dingus said it well in his post. Although I have to say the article he posted a link to is rubbish, if we all don't have a 30 second worth of memory then we are lost. Anyway, not to get side tracked.

The nimrods like Pix who argue people would spend thousands of dollars on tweaks for no other reason than to have them for show or we are so stupid we can get psyched out into believing something works when it don't and they are the only intelligent people in the world who can see through the fog are beyond foolish. In fact, so foolish that they will be deprived of any of these products because they are closed minded and if they did use any of them, they'd have to admit they were WRONG. It's even more astounding when those who are familiar with audio take a stance similar to Pix because they should very well know that not all things related to sound quality can be measured.

In my case there are a few holes in Pix's warped out theory. All of the products I tried there was no money paid until after I tried the product, so I didn't have to justify anything. Most of my aftermarket cables and my power conditioner are not visible unless I took some one over and pointed these things out behind my shelving and TV, so I wasted my money on hi fi bling there. Some products I tried were returned, so I guess I was hypnotized only part of the time. The problem I have with articles like Dingus posted and the other naysayers, who do so just for attention, say we can't tell any difference, our memory of what we heard is too short etc. it's crap, if some one can't tell if one way has more bass or more detail than another way, then how can anything be evaluated. If I can't tell if one power cord makes a difference over another, then how can I tell if one CD player, or anything else has a difference. We might as well buy the cheapest shtuff and forget about it. None of these arguments naysayers of these upgrades holds water because the same senses we use to evaluate any hi fi gear are used when we evaluate the upgrade. Either there is an effect, or not. What's the big magic trick?

All I can say is I hope each person tries upgrades for themselves, and if one don't work, don't close the door because maybe the next one will.

A big key is whether the system with the added tweak has the resolution to show any difference. Since 99% of the misguided people on this board believe that speakers are the most important link in a system and least expense is their source, I doubt if resolution is part of their listening life. But don't let me mix my pet peevs.

Whats astounding is spending big bucks on stuff like power cords and "conditioners"
when you could spend it putting real improvement into your system.
There are people offering money if blindfolded people can tell the difference between
power cords, etc, nobodies ever collected.
Take the top off of your gear sometimes, look at the capacitors , some quite large, look at the guage of wire running from the input jacks.
People who care more about sound instead of wasting money on "tweaks" that produce no real benefit will never see eye to eye with those who imagine things that justify buying tweaks, we have been arguing about this for DECADES,
and it won't be resolved here.
But newbies who are just getting into this come here and other places, they need to hear both sides.
the small differences in cables is problematic enough, but by the time power finally gets through your power supply it doesnt resemble ANYTHING like what went in, if you are hearing any difference in power cords its all in your mind, sorry but thats the facts,
and a decent power strip well put together(mine cost 200, got it for 100) are really all you need.
the theory that junk creeps into the final product of a system is even more dicey in the digital age.
Converting something to digital and back to analog is the ultimate "filter", if there is anything there it will be left out, mostly. And digital is what most listen to these days

[dingus]

Power conditioners, upgraded power cords and higher quality cables can all have a positive effect on certain systems. Dingus said it well in his post. Although I have to say the article he posted a link to is rubbish...

what link?

[emorphien]

if somebody tells me that something effects the sound of their system, i cannot corroborate or refute the claim unless i hear it for myself.

I agree however my caveat is with how subjective hearing is to what someone wants to believe, and with how much misinformation is present in the audiophile community, my generally impression of most of those claims is that "they're hogwash."

[Groundbeef]

Too some degree I think that power conditioners are a bit overhyped. That being said, I DO own one for my rather budget concious system. I don't have 10K of electronics, so why spend hundreds for the power end?

I don't often agree with Pixel, but there was a small nugget of truth in his arguement "Why not spend your money where it will be noticed?". In my case, speakers. Wouldn't I be better served to buy a higher quality speaker, than invest in a high $$ conditioner? Would not the payoff be greater?

However, if say you own very $$ speakers, quality is probably not an issue. In that case, incremental gains are probably what you will have to gain. Sort of like the law of diminishing returns. Once the majors (better speakers, nicer reciever etc) are fufilled, then you can concentrate on the minors.

I would suggest that for smaller, non-professional systems (mine) a decent sub $150 conditioner/surge arrester is MORE than adequate. For professional/high end, I frankly don't know what would be acceptable. If you have the money, and it "sounds" better, than so be it. While I do feel it's foolish to spend several hundred $$/foot for wire/connections, I'm not going to be the judge for a system I can't afford.

Chances are, if your spending hundreds on connections, money isn't your last concern.

[Mr Peabody]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

Pix, give me the contact info, I will take anyone's DBT. Why would you spend $100.00 on a power strip when you can get one for $10.00? Like I said, cables and power products are the same as any other component, if we can't trust ourselves to evaluate them, then we can't be trusted to evaluate anything. So save a bunch of money and forget the hobby all together because humans are not capable of discerning changes in sound. Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

[PeruvianSkies]

Too some degree I think that power conditioners are a bit overhyped. That being said, I DO own one for my rather budget concious system. I don't have 10K of electronics, so why spend hundreds for the power end?

I don't often agree with Pixel, but there was a small nugget of truth in his arguement "Why not spend your money where it will be noticed?". In my case, speakers. Wouldn't I be better served to buy a higher quality speaker, than invest in a high $$ conditioner? Would not the payoff be greater?

However, if say you own very $$ speakers, quality is probably not an issue. In that case, incremental gains are probably what you will have to gain. Sort of like the law of diminishing returns. Once the majors (better speakers, nicer reciever etc) are fufilled, then you can concentrate on the minors.

I would suggest that for smaller, non-professional systems (mine) a decent sub $150 conditioner/surge arrester is MORE than adequate. For professional/high end, I frankly don't know what would be acceptable. If you have the money, and it "sounds" better, than so be it. While I do feel it's foolish to spend several hundred $$/foot for wire/connections, I'm not going to be the judge for a system I can't afford.

Chances are, if your spending hundreds on connections, money isn't your last concern.

I don't think anyone is arguing that you should spend money equally on power conditioning as you do on the rest of your system, just like everything else it needs to be with the correct proportions.

[PeruvianSkies]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

Pix, give me the contact info, I will take anyone's DBT. Why would you spend $100.00 on a power strip when you can get one for $10.00? Like I said, cables and power products are the same as any other component, if we can't trust ourselves to evaluate them, then we can't be trusted to evaluate anything. So save a bunch of money and forget the hobby all together because humans are not capable of discerning changes in sound. Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

I can tune my guitar by ear and I am about 99.9% in tune all the time with the tuner. I have what they call 'perfect pitch' and it's not something everyone has nor is it sometime you just get overnight, it takes time to develop your ear for pitch.

[emorphien]

Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

Wow, I'm quite disappointed to see someone attempt to make this argument.

If you simply look at scientifically measured specs alone, it's quite obvious one who knows what to look for will be able to detect an out of tune instrument. Be it a guitar, piano, trombone or flute. However the measurements do not support that for many of the audiophile tweaks people spend money on. What's more ironic is people are blissfully unaware that there are other, more significant upgrades they can make like room acoustics that don't have to be more expensive.

Do scientific measurements matter? Does an understanding of how they relate to human hearing matter? I think so, but many audiophiles are quick to discount those claims. However nobody has actually been able to prove in a proper DBT one way or another for most tweaks and even if they did, the hard core tweakers wouldn't care so it's easier to just let them live in their oblivious state of tweaking bliss.

[Groundbeef]

Do scientific measurements matter? Does an understanding of how they relate to human hearing matter? I think so, but many audiophiles are quick to discount those claims. However nobody has actually been able to prove in a proper DBT one way or another for most tweaks and even if they did, the hard core tweakers wouldn't care so it's easier to just let them live in their oblivious state of tweaking bliss.

And so much easier to charge $$$ for a few feet of wire.

[Mr Peabody]

Wow, I'm quite disappointed to see someone attempt to make this argument.

If you simply look at scientifically measured specs alone, it's quite obvious one who knows what to look for will be able to detect an out of tune instrument. Be it a guitar, piano, trombone or flute. However the measurements do not support that for many of the audiophile tweaks people spend money on. What's more ironic is people are blissfully unaware that there are other, more significant upgrades they can make like room acoustics that don't have to be more expensive.

Do scientific measurements matter? Does an understanding of how they relate to human hearing matter? I think so, but many audiophiles are quick to discount those claims. However nobody has actually been able to prove in a proper DBT one way or another for most tweaks and even if they did, the hard core tweakers wouldn't care so it's easier to just let them live in their oblivious state of tweaking bliss.

The argument is quite valid. You either missed the point or refuse to accept it. People like you, Pix, GB and others think for some reason it is imagination that one can discern a difference in their system when adding a tweak and removing it. I'm saying your argument is NOT valid because I am capable of knowing if something improves or changes my system's sound whether it be a tweak or another piece of gear. It's quite a stretch actually for you to say there's no effect and it's some one's imagination. This is an insult and applying your logic across the board,, if I can't discern differences in my system from tweaks or other components, then how is my hearing going to work to tune and instrument. I think the operative word in my post was "by ear". There's no test measurements to look at. So to break it down further for grad students, when tuning a guitar by ear it's just you and the guitar, you turn a key and LISTEN whether the string is getting closer to in tune. When evaluating a tweak, you LISTEN to the system, stop, insert tweak, LISTEN again to see if any difference. Use of one's hearing either works or it don't, you can't say it works for some things but stops and imagination kicks in when trying a tweak. So keep your mind closed, live your life believing nothing exists unless you can measure and stay in your ignorant bliss.

On entry level systems like Pioneer and JBL I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to hear much difference, there's a definite resolution deficit. Nor would I expect some one with that system to buy $300.00 speaker connects which cost more than the receiver. P Sky did have some what of a point about system equality. I believe I mentioned in an earlier post that a system would have to have the resolution or ability to allow the listener to tell if any improvements were made. This is one of the big reasons this is not a yes/no question. It's something that has to be tried. On the other hand to sit there with an entry level system and tell me something definitely don't exist is just stupid. However, I allowed my argument to broaden, even a modest system such as Pioneer can benefit from a power product, which is what the original question was about. Unfortunately, power products that make a significant difference are not cheap. Even Monster has 3 levels of filtering and in most instances you won't get your money worth until you buy into that 3rd level. And even that will depend on your house's wiring, your power company and what's plugged into your wall outlets. It could be that a person don't have the need for the power product, they're lucky, but it's possible. That's why you have to try it, if you can't tell a difference then only an idiot would go ahead and buy it.

[dingus]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

ah, right. that was intended to be used as a primer, a starting point for folks to work from, not to be taken as gospel.

[emorphien]

It's quite a stretch actually for you to say there's no effect and it's some one's imagination.

Not at all really. In fact in situations as subjective as this it might be the more reasonable explanation. It's not that many tweaks cannot help, it's that many people have successfully convinced themselves that things that are impossible due to simple physics have profound effects. That's not the golden ear, that's ignorance. And nothing more.

Humans are not infallible beings, our senses can be confused, and we're exceptionally good at convincing ourselves of things that cannot be. It is easy to prove that the tuning of an instrument is well within the threshold of trained ears, but so far little has successfully shown the same for many audio tweaks.

And certainly don't think that people who share the opinions I do and say similar things have not had the opportunity to audition these tweaks on systems costing tens of thousands of dollars. Statements from such people saying they heard no difference are no less valid as opinions as yours saying you can hear the difference. And neither one is enough to prove whether or not the tweak actually does make a difference.

[pixelthis]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

Pix, give me the contact info, I will take anyone's DBT. Why would you spend $100.00 on a power strip when you can get one for $10.00? Like I said, cables and power products are the same as any other component, if we can't trust ourselves to evaluate them, then we can't be trusted to evaluate anything. So save a bunch of money and forget the hobby all together because humans are not capable of discerning changes in sound. Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

I already had a 100$ monster "strip" but one day I saw one of their triagular honkin metal
strips (retail 199$) and it had no price, price check was 99$!
So I grabbed it, opportunity presented itself.
I have gotten a lot of praise about this dingus, everybody thinks it looks cool.
But affect the sound? No reason why it should, but it is exelent protection for my system.
Now mr p, you know my respect for you, but we live in different camps, and as for peruvian and his perfect pitch, not having a discerning ear has always been the mantra
of those who depend more on imagination than science in selecting gear, but my hearing has always been exelent, I can (barely) tell the difference between 128kbs and 320kbs,
wanting to hear sound in its entirety was the reason I got into this (it was pre-video, not even VCRS) but being of somewhat limited means I have never been able to indulge in such thing as silver cables, power cords, etc, would have if I could hear any difference
but have never really been able to, so I invest my dough in such things as new players,
better cables (which can improve your system, which isn't always the same as improving the sound) speker stands, etc.
Power cords, conditioners, are the latest marketing gimmick, we've gotten along fine for decades without these "improvements", the latest idea from the marketing dept.
Detachable power cords are a good idea for various reasons though, but as long as your cord is the proper guage thats all you need.
I guess decades of listening to some nice gear with the dinkiest power cords has made me somewhat leery of the whole notion of changing out a cord, and since I havent been able to tell the diff in any system with this "improvement" I'll pass

[Donzel]

Here is my experience with power conditioners. I had a Monster 1000 - I added a dedicated 20 amp line, a ps audio outlet, replaced the Monster with a Wiremold power tap, and the sound improved measurably - my dynamic and resolution - on my Magnepan 1.6, Tandberg int. amp, and Rega- Apollo cd player. The electrician who added the dedicated line is also and audiophile, and with a/b comparison - noticed more detail in the Diana Krall cd. I have a home - hardly anything in appliances except a refrig - probably a different situation from a large city or an apartment. I had another speaker system plugged into a ungrounded outlet for 40 years - same location - no problem with surges or lightening.

[notphilmitchell]

I am using a MonsterPower HTS 2500 in my living room. I don't have very high end stuff (Onkyo 606, Denon 2200, Toshiba 37" LCD, and a Toshiba HDDVDA200?) but wanted some protection and a place to plug everything in to. I got it for about $100 from Amazon so I kind of view it as an expensive power strip. I don't really know if it does anything special but I like the way it looks and think the VU meter on the front is cool. I thought it was interesting that the voltage varies throughout the day.

My stuff downstairs is comparable. I use a $50 Monster Power power strip. When I finished the basement I ran a dedicated 20 Amp circuit just for the TV/Stereo stuff with the thought that I might add separate amps later.

[pixelthis]

I am using a MonsterPower HTS 2500 in my living room. I don't have very high end stuff (Onkyo 606, Denon 2200, Toshiba 37" LCD, and a Toshiba HDDVDA200?) but wanted some protection and a place to plug everything in to. I got it for about $100 from Amazon so I kind of view it as an expensive power strip. I don't really know if it does anything special but I like the way it looks and think the VU meter on the front is cool. I thought it was interesting that the voltage varies throughout the day.

My stuff downstairs is comparable. I use a $50 Monster Power power strip. When I finished the basement I ran a dedicated 20 Amp circuit just for the TV/Stereo stuff with the thought that I might add separate amps later.

Running a dedicated power circuit is probably the best thing you could
do.
I have a monster strip also and they are good, mine picked up a ground fault problem that I had no idea about, and they are about all you need, really.

[elapsed]

Running a dedicated power circuit is probably the best thing you could
do.

I'll agree with pixie and donzel on this one, if you have the ability to install a dedicated mains spur for your rig, the potential for improvement is staggering!

cheers,
elapsed