Ain't it Funny How Vizio.....

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

AS FOR vizio, several million satisfied customers disagree with you.

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There are also several million Bose Lifestyle owners.....but they still own low quality gear...just sayin.

Hi all, need some receiver advice for paradigm speakers

can anyone help me out?

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Originally Posted by rich66

Hi all, need some receiver advice for paradigm speakers

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Rich, why don't you post a new thread in the appropriate location and give us enough info to actually answer your question.

Otherwise, the answer is Just Buy One.

Ok thanks Hyfi sorry for the inconvenience

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Originally Posted by Worf101

Once it got "decent' reviews and semi-respectable, has jacked up it's prices to where they're HIGHER than some top tier brands. I was looking for a small LCD 27 to 30 inches for a friends bedroom and the Vizio priced for 1080P at those prices is outrageous.

My how the worm has turned.

Worf

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Well, back on topic here, the issue with Vizio is that they need to maintain a price advantage in order to sustain sales. If the prices are equal, Vizio would not be the first choice with most consumers. Since they rely totally on outsource manufacturers and don't do any of their own R&D, they maintain less control over the margins than first tier manufacturers that make their own sets and/or do their own R&D.

With prices and margins falling through the floor, Vizio no longer has as big a price advantage as they did when HDTVs cost more than $2,000. That why they retooled their strategy a couple of years ago by moving more into the midlevel territory, where the margins and price points have not been squeezed as hard.

Your experience has less to do with Vizio charging more than it does the price points dropping with the first tier manufacturers to a point where Vizio no longer has a price advantage with the entry level sets. Right now, entry level HDTVs barely cost more than the bill of goods for the parts.

That's why Vizio has moved over to the midlevel HDTV and accessories markets, where margins are still high enough that they have some room to undercut the prices.

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Originally Posted by Woochifer

Well, back on topic here, the issue with Vizio is that they need to maintain a price advantage in order to sustain sales. If the prices are equal, Vizio would not be the first choice with most consumers. Since they rely totally on outsource manufacturers and don't do any of their own R&D, they maintain less control over the margins than first tier manufacturers that make their own sets and/or do their own R&D.

With prices and margins falling through the floor, Vizio no longer has as big a price advantage as they did when HDTVs cost more than $2,000. That why they retooled their strategy a couple of years ago by moving more into the midlevel territory, where the margins and price points have not been squeezed as hard.

Your experience has less to do with Vizio charging more than it does the price points dropping with the first tier manufacturers to a point where Vizio no longer has a price advantage with the entry level sets. Right now, entry level HDTVs barely cost more than the bill of goods for the parts.

That's why Vizio has moved over to the midlevel HDTV and accessories markets, where margins are still high enough that they have some room to undercut the prices.

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You can stop with all of the outsourcing nonsense...
NOBODY CARES, as long as the set works(they do) and the price is reasonable(it is).
Thats where a lot of these Vizio haters come from, they just can't stand the way Vizio operates. WELL, TOUGH.:1:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Sorry Frenchmon, but your eyes are very poor measuring devices, and opinions are just what they are. When measured with actual measuring devices, almost all Vizio models exhibit mediocre color accuracy, mediocre dynamic contrast, mediocre to poor black levels, and generally poor shadow detail.

I can say(in a vacuum) that the Delos Dolby Digital version of the 1812 Overture sounds great. However, when I compared that Dolby Digital version to the DTS High Resolution Master Audio version, that is when I realize how much the compression of Dolby Digital is effecting the quality of the audio. The same can be said for any Vizio. They look good standing all by themselves, but when put up to a Samsung, Sony of Panasonic, that is when you see how truly mediocre their performance is. Now that they are no longer a bargain, why bother with a second(bordering on third) tier set, when you can purchase the middle of the line model from the first tier manufacturers that will outperform it.

No offense Frenchmon, but a little reality is in order here. Budweiser will never be Dom Pérignon.

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never mind that a lot are buying Vizios that are sitting next
to Sonys, PANASONICS, etc etc etc..
And of course human senses are fallible, but this is the excuse of
one who has lost his argument. Nobody is going to run
a new set through a battery of tests to measure stuff they cant
even discern, why should they?
HERES a little secret, the "differences" that TALKY and other
slanderers talk about are slight, and unless the difference is
huge..it won't make any difference to buyers!.
WHY pay several hundred dollars more for a slight black level
improvement that you can not even discern? ESPECIALLY
when gas is over four bucks a gallon(although TALKY produces gas in plentiful quantities).:1:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

never mind that a lot are buying Vizios that are sitting next
to Sonys, PANASONICS, etc etc etc..
And of course human senses are fallible, but this is the excuse of
one who has lost his argument. Nobody is going to run
a new set through a battery of tests to measure stuff they cant
even discern, why should they?
HERES a little secret, the "differences" that TALKY and other
slanderers talk about are slight, and unless the difference is
huge..it won't make any difference to buyers!.
WHY pay several hundred dollars more for a slight black level
improvement that you can not even discern? ESPECIALLY
when gas is over four bucks a gallon(although TALKY produces gas in plentiful quantities).:1:

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The differences I talk about may be slight to you because you are half blind, and don't know what to look for.

As it has already been stated, millions of people buying a mediocre product does not make the product good. It just means millions of folks looked at price instead of actual performance.

One mans floor is another ceiling. Obviously my floor is your ceiling.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

You can stop with all of the outsourcing nonsense...

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How's it nonsense if it's TRUE? Are you saying that Vizio makes their own TVs (they don't) or that that they handle their own customer service (they don't) or that they do their own R&D (they don't)?

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

NOBODY CARES, as long as the set works(they do) and the price is reasonable(it is).

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It matters in that Vizio cannot maintain their pricing advantage once the margins get as razor thin as they currently are. That's why they're moving to the midmarket, because they can no longer trump Samsung, LG, Sony, or Panasonic's entry level models on price.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

Thats where a lot of these Vizio haters come from, they just can't stand the way Vizio operates. WELL, TOUGH.:1:

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How is it "hating" by pointing out the reality of their business plan? Fanboys like you just keep attacking the messenger without addressing anything (or even reading the whole post for that matter).

[QUOTE=Woochifer;362438]How's it nonsense if it's TRUE? Are you saying that Vizio makes their own TVs (they don't) or that that they handle their own customer service (they don't) or that they do their own R&D (they don't)?

I AM SAYING that nobody cares (they don't)

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It matters in that Vizio cannot maintain their pricing advantage once the margins get as razor thin as they currently are. That's why they're moving to the midmarket, because they can no longer trump Samsung, LG, Sony, or Panasonic's entry level models on price.

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THEY ARE MOVIN ON UP for the same reason that a lot do...
SUCCESS. You might hate it, but I don't think they asked you,
but having built market share, its time to cash in some.
THE American way

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How is it "hating" by pointing out the reality of their business plan? Fanboys like you just keep attacking the messenger without addressing anything (or even reading the whole post for that matter).

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Not a "fanboy", just admiring a well run company.
AND YOU HAVENT "noticed" the REAL REALITY of their
"business plan", mainly that IT WORKS LIKE A DREAM.
Argue with success all you want, people will either think you
are delusional or stupid.
VIZIO is number one, and that is ONE thing you can't argue with.
Don't like it? BUY A "botique" overpriced set with a fractional improvement, and pay through the nose for it.
ITS CALLED capitalism, although you liberaltards have no understanding of it whatsoever.:1:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Sorry Frenchmon, but your eyes are very poor measuring devices, and opinions are just what they are. When measured with actual measuring devices, almost all Vizio models exhibit mediocre color accuracy, mediocre dynamic contrast, mediocre to poor black levels, and generally poor shadow detail.

I can say(in a vacuum) that the Delos Dolby Digital version of the 1812 Overture sounds great. However, when I compared that Dolby Digital version to the DTS High Resolution Master Audio version, that is when I realize how much the compression of Dolby Digital is effecting the quality of the audio. The same can be said for any Vizio. They look good standing all by themselves, but when put up to a Samsung, Sony of Panasonic, that is when you see how truly mediocre their performance is. Now that they are no longer a bargain, why bother with a second(bordering on third) tier set, when you can purchase the middle of the line model from the first tier manufacturers that will outperform it.

No offense Frenchmon, but a little reality is in order here. Budweiser will never be Dom Pérignon.

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LOL...Terrence. No offence taken. Last time I had my eyes checked...they where fine.

When I had my Canton stand mounts speakers next to Dynaudio stand mounts speakers...the Canton out performed the Dynaudio in every way except the bass. The Cantons where producing sounds and detail, and dispersing music all over the place that Dynaudio could not fathom.

But as much as you try with my TV...I aint buying what you are selling...nice try tho. No offence Terrence, but that Budweiser goes down the same way as that Dom Pérignon with the same effect....while letting me keep a little more cash in my pocket....im sure there was no offence taken, huh Terrence?

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

I AM SAYING that nobody cares (they don't)

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In other words, every point I made was TRUE and not the "nonsense" that you claimed it was. And BTW, there are people out there that do care about these issues, that's why they don't buy Vizios.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

THEY ARE MOVIN ON UP for the same reason that a lot do...
SUCCESS. You might hate it, but I don't think they asked you,
but having built market share, its time to cash in some.
THE American way

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Quite the contrary, they are moving up market because they HAVE TO. Right now, they are in a bad competitive position in the entry level because they can no longer maintain a price advantage over the first tier brands. If they stayed in their previous market niche, they will die on the vine because consumers are not going to choose Vizio over first tier brands if the prices are comparable.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

Not a "fanboy", just admiring a well run company.

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In other words, you're a fanboy.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

LOL...Terrence. No offence taken. Last time I had my eyes checked...they where fine.

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No matter how good your eyes are, they cannot measure dynamic contrast, color accuracy, or black levels.

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When I had my Canton stand mounts speakers next to Dynaudio stand mounts speakers...the Canton out performed the Dynaudio in every way except the bass. The Cantons where producing sounds and detail, and dispersing music all over the place that Dynaudio could not fathom.

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This same comparison can be made by comparing your Vizio set to a comparably price Sony set. The Vizio does not have the black levels, the color accuracy, the dynamic contrast, or the shadow detail that the comparably price Sony has. The prices could be close, but the performance is not.

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But as much as you try with my TV...I aint buying what you are selling...nice try tho. No offence Terrence, but that Budweiser goes down the same way as that Dom Pérignon with the same effect....while letting me keep a little more cash in my pocket....im sure there was no offence taken, huh Terrence?

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This is a pretty common response when somebody buys something, but does not want to face the fact they bought it for the price, and not for the performance. Anyone that believes the Vizio televisions are performance products has their head in the sand, and is back stroking down de-nile. You can believe it in your head, but do not try and export that to more knowledgeable folks, it will make you look foolish.

Personally, I would not present a toast with Budweiser, the effect just would not be the same.

That cash you put back in your pocket did come with a price. That price was performance. Now if the cash matters more to you than the performance, then you met your goal. But if you thought you bought a performance product, and saved a few bucks, sadly, you are quite wrong on that.

Every year I go to the Digital Testing center to look at the performance of 50+ television sets from various manufacturers. I see them broken down into pieces, and listen to the technicians tell me why one panel works better than another, or why some panel's performance are basically equal. When they explained to me why Vizio performs poorly when compared to similarly priced panels, it boils down to how it was designed and built. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic's panels are designed from the ground up with parts and processors designed especially for those panels. The QC on those panels is very tight, and well controlled. That does not happen with Vizio sets. Vizio sets have panels sourced from Amtran, processors and internal parts from several other sources, and none of it designed to work together exclusively. This means panel to panel performance is uneven, and various performance parameters are not optimal as they are with a Sony, Samsung or Panasonic. One Vizio panel may have parts sourced from one supplier, and another within the same manufacturing run will have the parts from another. Vizio therefore can never accurately display the REC.709 specification for HDTV color accuracy because of this. Their black levels lean more to grey than actual black. The televisions backlight consistency is uneven over the face of the panel, they have the slowest panel response time among the second tier sets, and only better than a few third tier sets.

Now if you are fully satisfied with your purchase, that is great, you should be. But trying to defend the set as being more than it is - is plain ridiculous. Eyes lie and fool, but measurements and testing do not. So whether you are buying what I am selling is pretty irrelevant, the truth is the truth no matter if you buy it or not.

I was and am not offended, and I hope you are not either.

[QUOTE=Woochifer;362507]In other words, every point I made was TRUE and not the "nonsense" that you claimed it was. And BTW, there are people out there that do care about these issues, that's why they don't buy Vizios.
Good for them.
HOW VIZIO builds their sets, etc, matters to fewer people than you think, especially since it matters not as far as quality is concerned.
BASICALLY its all you could drum up to attack this company,
you couldnt find anything that matters, like serious qualioty issues, etc, so you cite insignificant facts and try to blow them up like they matter... WHEN NOBODY CARES.
NONE of your "issues" has kept VIZIO from becoming the number one panel maker, because , again...
NOBODY CARES

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Quite the contrary, they are moving up market because they HAVE TO. Right now, they are in a bad competitive position in the entry level because they can no longer maintain a price advantage over the first tier brands. If they stayed in their previous market niche, they will die on the vine because consumers are not going to choose Vizio over first tier brands if the prices are comparable.

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But the quality isnt, which is probably what you hate about this company above all else, they have found out how to make a decent TV at a decent price, something your masters fail at.
IN vizios world there is no room for a parasitical army of middlemen, sorry about that

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In other words, you're a fanboy.

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In other words what you say DOESNT MATTER.:1:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

Good for them.
HOW VIZIO builds their sets, etc, matters to fewer people than you think, especially since it matters not as far as quality is concerned.

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And how do you know? Since when do you speak for everyone who shops for a TV?

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

BASICALLY its all you could drum up to attack this company,
you couldnt find anything that matters, like serious qualioty issues, etc, so you cite insignificant facts and try to blow them up like they matter... WHEN NOBODY CARES.

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How's it an attack to state facts? Your assertions about "nobody" caring are patently false, given that millions of consumers don't buy Vizios for any number of reasons.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

NONE of your "issues" has kept VIZIO from becoming the number one panel maker, because , again...
NOBODY CARES

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And of course, your reply speaks to your persistent ignorance of facts. Vizio is not the "number one panel maker" given that they don't make anything. They are merely a reseller and marketer for TVs made by somebody else.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

But the quality isnt, which is probably what you hate about this company above all else, they have found out how to make a decent TV at a decent price, something your masters fail at.

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It's only recently that their TV reliability has gotten to the industry average, and that's in large part due to the fact that their pricing is now also approaching the industry average.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

IN vizios world there is no room for a parasitical army of middlemen, sorry about that

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Do you even know what a middleman is? The very definition of one is the brand name stamped on your TV.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

In other words what you say DOESNT MATTER.:1:

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Only to you, because I prefer facts rather than paranoid jibberish. :out:

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Originally Posted by Woochifer

And how do you know? Since when do you speak for everyone who shops for a TV?

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Since when do you?.
THE WAY VIZIO "builds" TV sets is a lot more popular than
you would admit to, as a matter of fact its rather common.
TELL the truth, do you really think JOE SIX is looking
at a set and wondering about the outsourcing, design philosophy, etc, or is he wondering about the best set for
the best price? TELL THE TRUTH.

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How's it an attack to state facts? Your assertions about "nobody" caring are patently false, given that millions of consumers don't buy Vizios for any number of reasons.

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millions of people don't buy tomatoes, bacon, etc for any number of reasons.
I CAN GUARENTEE that of all of the people shopping for a new panel...none were considering outsourcing practices, etc,
when looking at one, any more than they care about where
stuff is made, etc. THEY JUST WANT GOOD as cheap as possible

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And of course, your reply speaks to your persistent ignorance of facts. Vizio is not the "number one panel maker" given that they don't make anything. They are merely a reseller and marketer for TVs made by somebody else.

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MORE LAWYERESE, THERE IS A HUGE Mercedes BENZE
factory just down the road from my house.
I GUESS that they arent making any MERCEDES BENZES
because most of the parts come from somewhere else.
GIMMIE A BREAK.

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It's only recently that their TV reliability has gotten to the industry average, and that's in large part due to the fact that their pricing is now also approaching the industry average.

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Actually, no. THIS IS false logic, like assuming something is bad for you just because people doing it die at a higher rate.
I HAVE TWO, they haven't failed, my brother has two, they haven't failed
MATTER of fact I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO HAS A vizio
that has suffered a failure.

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Do you even know what a middleman is? The very definition of one is the brand name stamped on your TV.

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YES I DO, but obviously you don't.

Only to you, because I prefer facts rather than paranoid jibberish. :[/QUOTE]

YOU PREFER useless "facts" that have nothing to do with anything, this being because the MAIN facts are that VIZIO
is more popular than any other brand, and have a decent price,
and perform well.
All of these facts matter, outsourcing(which all manufacturers do)
and other considerations affect buyer decisions not at all.:1:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

Since when do you?.
THE WAY VIZIO "builds" TV sets is a lot more popular than
you would admit to, as a matter of fact its rather common.
TELL the truth, do you really think JOE SIX is looking
at a set and wondering about the outsourcing, design philosophy, etc, or is he wondering about the best set for
the best price? TELL THE TRUTH.

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Try demanding "truth" from someone when you learn what "build" actually means. :out:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

millions of people don't buy tomatoes, bacon, etc for any number of reasons.
I CAN GUARENTEE that of all of the people shopping for a new panel...none were considering outsourcing practices, etc,
when looking at one, any more than they care about where
stuff is made, etc. THEY JUST WANT GOOD as cheap as possible

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Again, how do you know what "all of the people shopping for a new panel" are looking for? All those shopping trips to Sam's Club make you some all-knowing supreme being? :out:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

MORE LAWYERESE,

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Nope, just more simple words that you don't understand.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

THERE IS A HUGE Mercedes BENZE
factory just down the road from my house.
I GUESS that they arent making any MERCEDES BENZES
because most of the parts come from somewhere else.
GIMMIE A BREAK.

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Try try try again, but you continue to fail. How disappointing that you can't even get your analogies straight. Like booze, you gotta stop mixing them together.

Mercedes actually designs their own cars and makes most of the major components.

Vizio does not design anything, and does not make anything. Need me to repeat that again, or are you just trolling? :out:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

Actually, no. THIS IS false logic, like assuming something is bad for you just because people doing it die at a higher rate.
I HAVE TWO, they haven't failed, my brother has two, they haven't failed
MATTER of fact I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO HAS A vizio
that has suffered a failure.

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Actually yes. It's only false logic to you because you don't get it.

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

YES I DO, but obviously you don't.

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So, how is a company that does none of its own manufacturing, none of its own customer support, none of its own parts distribution, none of its own repair servicing, and none of its own product design, not functioning as the "middleman"? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pixelthis

YOU PREFER useless "facts" that have nothing to do with anything, this being because the MAIN facts are that VIZIO
is more popular than any other brand, and have a decent price,
and perform well.
All of these facts matter, outsourcing(which all manufacturers do)
and other considerations affect buyer decisions not at all.:1:

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Again, I prefer facts. They're only useless to you because Vizio fanboys would rather ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Woochifer

Vizio does not design anything, and does not make anything. Need me to repeat that again, or are you just trolling? :out:

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Please do not repeat as it might not be true :)

Although everything is outsourced, Vizio do design their own products......

"As part of the business model, CEO Wang outsources several tasks to professional management companies. By hiring other companies to handle warehousing, shipping or manufacturing, VIZIO can focus on its core competencies — like designing flat-panel TVs — while leaving the other things to people who are specialized in that area. Although the company designs its products, the assembly is contracted to companies in China, Taiwan and Mexico."

http://www.sbnonline.com/2008/05/the...rket/?paging=1

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

No matter how good your eyes are, they cannot measure dynamic contrast, color accuracy, or black levels.



This same comparison can be made by comparing your Vizio set to a comparably price Sony set. The Vizio does not have the black levels, the color accuracy, the dynamic contrast, or the shadow detail that the comparably price Sony has. The prices could be close, but the performance is not.



This is a pretty common response when somebody buys something, but does not want to face the fact they bought it for the price, and not for the performance. Anyone that believes the Vizio televisions are performance products has their head in the sand, and is back stroking down de-nile. You can believe it in your head, but do not try and export that to more knowledgeable folks, it will make you look foolish.

Personally, I would not present a toast with Budweiser, the effect just would not be the same.

That cash you put back in your pocket did come with a price. That price was performance. Now if the cash matters more to you than the performance, then you met your goal. But if you thought you bought a performance product, and saved a few bucks, sadly, you are quite wrong on that.

Every year I go to the Digital Testing center to look at the performance of 50+ television sets from various manufacturers. I see them broken down into pieces, and listen to the technicians tell me why one panel works better than another, or why some panel's performance are basically equal. When they explained to me why Vizio performs poorly when compared to similarly priced panels, it boils down to how it was designed and built. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic's panels are designed from the ground up with parts and processors designed especially for those panels. The QC on those panels is very tight, and well controlled. That does not happen with Vizio sets. Vizio sets have panels sourced from Amtran, processors and internal parts from several other sources, and none of it designed to work together exclusively. This means panel to panel performance is uneven, and various performance parameters are not optimal as they are with a Sony, Samsung or Panasonic. One Vizio panel may have parts sourced from one supplier, and another within the same manufacturing run will have the parts from another. Vizio therefore can never accurately display the REC.709 specification for HDTV color accuracy because of this. Their black levels lean more to grey than actual black. The televisions backlight consistency is uneven over the face of the panel, they have the slowest panel response time among the second tier sets, and only better than a few third tier sets.

Now if you are fully satisfied with your purchase, that is great, you should be. But trying to defend the set as being more than it is - is plain ridiculous. Eyes lie and fool, but measurements and testing do not. So whether you are buying what I am selling is pretty irrelevant, the truth is the truth no matter if you buy it or not.

I was and am not offended, and I hope you are not either.

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Well Man...you know ima bow out of this one Terrence. But heres the bottom line with me and the TV. Not saying you are wrong about what you say, I even went by the store and looked at a few brands and could see some credibility in what you are saying, but for me....its not about the best performance from a tv. Just so long as it looks really good when I want it to. Its not like I spend most of my free time watching the tube, unless a game is on, or I feel like watching blue ray. When I got free time at home and want to go into my nothing box, you can find me away from the wife and kids, down in my two channel room spending time with my albums. But seeing your passion about the performance of digital video, and my passion about audio, I can see where you are coming from, and I saw it from the beginning of our conversation, but seeing I never enter-act with you much, I decided to carry the conversation on a bit with out crossing the line with you. So it was all in good fun and conversation Terrence....and I do think there is some credibility in what you say but video is not that deep to me as audio.

TTYL

frenchmon

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Originally Posted by Smokey

Please do not repeat as it might not be true :)

Although everything is outsourced, Vizio do design their own products......

"As part of the business model, CEO Wang outsources several tasks to professional management companies. By hiring other companies to handle warehousing, shipping or manufacturing, VIZIO can focus on its core competencies — like designing flat-panel TVs — while leaving the other things to people who are specialized in that area. Although the company designs its products, the assembly is contracted to companies in China, Taiwan and Mexico."

http://www.sbnonline.com/2008/05/the...rket/?paging=1

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Smoke,
They can do the actual designs, but if the parts and processors were not designed to optimally work with that design, then the performance of the set is compromised. This is the case with Vizio televisions. This is why their sets usually finish in the middle to the bottom of the pack when compared with other sets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokey

Please do not repeat as it might not be true :)

Although everything is outsourced, Vizio do design their own products......

"As part of the business model, CEO Wang outsources several tasks to professional management companies. By hiring other companies to handle warehousing, shipping or manufacturing, VIZIO can focus on its core competencies — like designing flat-panel TVs — while leaving the other things to people who are specialized in that area. Although the company designs its products, the assembly is contracted to companies in China, Taiwan and Mexico."

http://www.sbnonline.com/2008/05/the...rket/?paging=1

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And what are they "designing"? The case? The specs? Cobbling together a bunch of spec components?

Amtran does most of the actual design work and manufacturing for the circuit boards. LG supplies most of the LCD panels. Foxconn and a bunch of others do the assembly. What's Vizio actually "designing" if all of the major components are outsourced?

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Originally Posted by Woochifer

And what are they "designing"? The case? The specs? Cobbling together a bunch of spec components?

Amtran does most of the actual design work and manufacturing for the circuit boards. LG supplies most of the LCD panels. Foxconn and a bunch of others do the assembly. What's Vizio actually "designing" if all of the major components are outsourced?

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Well, why dontcha call the engineering police and file a complaint.
Somebody outsourcing...GEE! That never happened before!
METHINKS YOU'RE JUST MAD because this is working so well,
plays with your sense of fairplay or something.
I SUGGEST YOU READ some books on capitalism and how
companies handle resources, like how not wasting time on something that already exists is a good thing, saves
the consumer money, and delivers a better product at a lower price.
LIKE when they used the DVDO scaler, of course iffen it was you you would completely design a new one from the ground up,
with maybe better specs by .000001 %.
VIZIO doesn't care if you disapprove of outsourcing, I GUESS,
and the thousands of other companies that follow the practice
probably don't either.
TELL ya what, ace, find a street corner, get a sign that says that every company has to build their stuff from scratch(which nobody
does, everybody outsources) and walk around on your street-corner until the guys with the butterfly nets grab you and give you a ride to the institute, give you some happy pills or something.:1:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

Well, why dontcha call the engineering police and file a complaint.
Somebody outsourcing...GEE! That never happened before!
METHINKS YOU'RE JUST MAD because this is working so well,
plays with your sense of fairplay or something.
I SUGGEST YOU READ some books on capitalism and how
companies handle resources, like how not wasting time on something that already exists is a good thing, saves
the consumer money, and delivers a better product at a lower price.
LIKE when they used the DVDO scaler, of course iffen it was you you would completely design a new one from the ground up,
with maybe better specs by .000001 %.
VIZIO doesn't care if you disapprove of outsourcing, I GUESS,
and the thousands of other companies that follow the practice
probably don't either.
TELL ya what, ace, find a street corner, get a sign that says that every company has to build their stuff from scratch(which nobody
does, everybody outsources) and walk around on your street-corner until the guys with the butterfly nets grab you and give you a ride to the institute, give you some happy pills or something.:1:

---

Who's saying anything about whether I approve or disapprove? All I'm pointing out is that it occurs. You're the one that seems to be taking personally whenever somebody points out facts.

Read my original post to Worf. All of your usual ranting at this point is either all for show, or your reading comprehension has taken a dip for the worse. :out:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woochifer

Who's saying anything about whether I approve or disapprove? All I'm pointing out is that it occurs. You're the one that seems to be taking personally whenever somebody points out facts.

Read my original post to Worf. All of your usual ranting at this point is either all for show, or your reading comprehension has taken a dip for the worse. :out:

---

You seem to fault VIZIO for what is industry wide practices, as usual showing either an ignorant or naive view of the world in general and
the way companies operate in particular
AND YOUR way of "pointing" out "facts"(facts to you anyway)
makes one think you got your training as an intern at PRAVDA.
makes me think of what SAMUEL Clemmens said about
there being "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
THINK he was thinking of your type.:1: .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woochifer

Well, back on topic here, the issue with Vizio is that they need to maintain a price advantage in order to sustain sales. If the prices are equal, Vizio would not be the first choice with most consumers. Since they rely totally on outsource manufacturers and don't do any of their own R&D, they maintain less control over the margins than first tier manufacturers that make their own sets and/or do their own R&D.

With prices and margins falling through the floor, Vizio no longer has as big a price advantage as they did when HDTVs cost more than $2,000. That why they retooled their strategy a couple of years ago by moving more into the midlevel territory, where the margins and price points have not been squeezed as hard.

Your experience has less to do with Vizio charging more than it does the price points dropping with the first tier manufacturers to a point where Vizio no longer has a price advantage with the entry level sets. Right now, entry level HDTVs barely cost more than the bill of goods for the parts.

That's why Vizio has moved over to the midlevel HDTV and accessories markets, where margins are still high enough that they have some room to undercut the prices.

---

Thanks for basically educating me on Vizio's recent strategy. I appreciate you staying "on point". I was actually hoping to buy a product from the OLD Vizio, large "decent" and cheap, but found their prices had risen exponentially. Still things will sort themselves out eventually.

Worf

66 post later :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recoveryone

66 post later :)

---

That was funny.... but true. Tried to give you green love recently but it won't let me!!!!!

Worf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Worf101

That was funny.... but true. Tried to give you green love recently but it won't let me!!!!!

Worf

---

I got a green shot off for you.:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMichael

I got a green shot off for you.:D

---

I hope he can wipe it off.....:p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I hope he can wipe it off.....:p

---

Let me know how you make out with yours. :cornut:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

You seem to fault VIZIO for what is industry wide practices, as usual showing either an ignorant or naive view of the world in general and
the way companies operate in particular
AND YOUR way of "pointing" out "facts"(facts to you anyway)
makes one think you got your training as an intern at PRAVDA.
makes me think of what SAMUEL Clemmens said about
there being "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
THINK he was thinking of your type.:1: .

---

He's not blaming them for an industry wide practice, he's blaming them for not doing it well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bobsticks

He's not blaming them for an industry wide practice, he's blaming them for not doing it well.

---

BY "not doing it well" which do you mean?
THE NUMBER ONE SPOT in sales?
The rave reviews from the customers?
THE EXCELLENT service record?
WHAT? My first Vizio is six years old, looks as good as when I TOOK IT HOME, wish everything I bought worked as well.
EVER think that that's why they sell so many? Or do you
think people are in the habit of buying bad tv's?:1:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GMichael

Let me know how you make out with yours. :cornut:

---

Can you pass me a towel? :thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

BY "not doing it well" which do you mean?
THE NUMBER ONE SPOT in sales?
The rave reviews from the customers?
THE EXCELLENT service record?
WHAT? My first Vizio is six years old, looks as good as when I TOOK IT HOME, wish everything I bought worked as well.
EVER think that that's why they sell so many? Or do you
think people are in the habit of buying bad tv's?:1:

---

By "not doing it well" I mean not getting the best results possible or even results that are comprehensibly equal to what others have accomplished by using the same methods.

That's what I mean by "not doing it well".

That, and the fact that now they're not doing it well at a not-so-competitive price.

Your evidence is anecdotal and that's fine. But because the practice involves multiple suppliers with inconsistent quality control (a la Apex DVD Players) the utlility you have received from the product may not likely translate in the experiences of others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bobsticks

By "not doing it well" I mean not getting the best results possible or even results that are comprehensibly equal to what others have accomplished by using the same methods.

That's what I mean by "not doing it well".

That, and the fact that now they're not doing it well at a not-so-competitive price.

Your evidence is anecdotal and that's fine. But because the practice involves multiple suppliers with inconsistent quality control (a la Apex DVD Players) the utlility you have received from the product may not likely translate in the experiences of others.

---

AND YOU have what to support this?
No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about.
THE PROPAGANDA ABOUT "INCONSISTENT"
quality is just that...propaganda. Industries have had exacting
standards that bear comparison, like the I.S.O program.
Problem is that those slamming VIZIO think that reading a bunch of stats makes them some kind of "expert"...and naive types
such as yourself buy into it.
UNLIKE some on this board , I actually worked in a factory,
a factory which actually met ISO standards.
HOW much did they mean? THE man in charge of ISO compliance actually had veto power over the plant manager.
THROUGH ISO and other programs you can get an excellent
idea of the quality of the organization you are dealing with.
DO YOU actually think that a company like VIZIO buys
parts in some back alley? COMPANIES have to meet serious
standards , otherwise international trade itself would break down
MOST COMPANIES have strict QC standards, and there is several ways to judge this, the most important being the quality of
the products they turn out.
SO YOU AND OTHERS make the nebulous charge that VIZIO
uses substandard parts, well, where are your facts?
YOU KNOW the best standard of quality for a product?
THE TESTIMONIALS OF THE customers.
DOES VIZIO have any class action suits? MAYBE.
Panasonic does. TOSHIBA once put out a DVD player so
bad that there was a class action suit by the purchasers for damages.SO why don't these companies get slammed for their
lack of QC?
VIZIO purchasers love their sets. SO WHERE is your proof that
their product is shoddy? MY mother has a six year old set in her living room, 37", and a 42" in the den. MY brother has several,
in his bedroom and his daughters bedroom. AND WHAT about
all of the other sales that made VIZIO number one?
WHERE IS THE GROUNDSWELL of dissatisfied customers
that want their money back? I HAVE looked at the innards of
a Vizio, it looks pretty good, well put together.
ALL OF THIS talk about a lack of "quality" for a set that has
great sales records is really just a case of having nothing else
to mudsling in their faces.
Don't like the way VIZIO makes their products? Then don't be a hypocrite, go through your house and throw out everything built the same way, which will be most everything.
BACK in the VCR days I worked at a tape plant.
FUGI, Polaroid, RCA, jvc, and more brands of tape came off of the
same line, SONY and others contract out for lesser products like boomboxes, etc.
To say that VIZIO or any other company makes "bad" products
just because you don't like them is childish and unfair.
WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS that VIZIO or any other company
that uses outsourcing produces shoddy merchandise?:1:

We got a Vizio 19" LED for my father in law's room in the Nursing Home. Within 2 weeks the screen developed a green line from top to bottom about 3 inches from the left side.

Piece of crap is going back!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

stuff

---

Pix, you really are a buffoon sometimes.

Everytime we have one of these Vizio dustups your perspective is always the same: Vizio makes great products, they're as good as anyone else's, your experiences have been satisfactory and above, and anyone who points out data to the contrary is an industry shill and a propagandist.

Anyone who reads my posts for comprehension understands that I have said before and will continue to say that Vizio has made a decent though inconsistent second tier set. That is not to be confused with SOTA or without fault. You repeatedly assert that anyone who spends more on a set due to what you view as dubious numbers regarding defects/returns or quality is a fool, naive, or an industry hack.

How is your anecdotal evidence any more impactful that HyFi's or any of the scores of negative reviews that can be found with a simple Google search---much less the actual industry numbers that indicate that Vizio has up to a 3% higher return rate than Sony or Samsung? It's a sad day indeed when the Pixel family are the arbiters of accomplishment in modern technology.

Do you really think that 107 year old MammyPix who views anything more complex than a gypsy puppet show in black and white has a dog in the fight over quality? Can she even perceive black level or motion blur? And, the Pixelettes watching Buffy from their section of the custom double-wide...really? Really?

That you were a rent-a-cop in a factory back in the days of magnetic media is meaningless in this discussion. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on modern quality control, it makes you an expert on donuts and I'll glady defer to your expertise in those matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bobsticks

Pix, you really are a buffoon sometimes.

Everytime we have one of these Vizio dustups your perspective is always the same: Vizio makes great products, they're as good as anyone else's, your experiences have been satisfactory and above, and anyone who points out data to the contrary is an industry shill and a propagandist.

Anyone who reads my posts for comprehension understands that I have said before and will continue to say that Vizio has made a decent though inconsistent second tier set. That is not to be confused with SOTA or without fault. You repeatedly assert that anyone who spends more on a set due to what you view as dubious numbers regarding defects/returns or quality is a fool, naive, or an industry hack.

How is your anecdotal evidence any more impactful that HyFi's or any of the scores of negative reviews that can be found with a simple Google search---much less the actual industry numbers that indicate that Vizio has up to a 3% higher return rate than Sony or Samsung? It's a sad day indeed when the Pixel family are the arbiters of accomplishment in modern technology.

Do you really think that 107 year old MammyPix who views anything more complex than a gypsy puppet show in black and white has a dog in the fight over quality? Can she even perceive black level or motion blur? And, the Pixelettes watching Buffy from their section of the custom double-wide...really? Really?

That you were a rent-a-cop in a factory back in the days of magnetic media is meaningless in this discussion. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on modern quality control, it makes you an expert on donuts and I'll glady defer to your expertise in those matters.

---

Well said wise one. As I have said many times to Pix, one man's floor is another ceiling. When you trumpet the idea that a Vizio television is a performance based set, then sadly your bar of performance is much lower than many of us out there.

If you totally enjoy the Vizio set your have purchased, more power to you. At this point, there are better sets for the price out there if you just look for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

Industries have had exacting standards that bear comparison, like the I.S.O program.

---

And if they actually comply to whichever ISO 90xx designated for TV MFGs, they would have a 99.9% quality controlled product. They do not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

UNLIKE some on this board , I actually worked in a factory,
a factory which actually met ISO standards.

---

I have also, and being able to comply with the standards is close to impossible, but not impossible. Companies fudge the paperwork every day to APPEAR to be in compliance. Your reference to you working someplace that did comply in no way means that VIZIO does so it is irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

DO YOU actually think that a company like VIZIO buys parts in some back alley? COMPANIES have to meet serious
standards , otherwise international trade itself would break down
MOST COMPANIES have strict QC standards, and there is several ways to judge this, the most important being the quality of
the products they turn out.
SO YOU AND OTHERS make the nebulous charge that VIZIO
uses substandard parts, well, where are your facts?

---

What has been stated over and over is that although the parts are not, or may not be, sub-standard, they were not all designed to actually work flawlessly together. That does not mean that the item won't work, it is just not optimum for performance and overall quality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

VIZIO purchasers love their sets. SO WHERE is your proof that
their product is shoddy? MY mother has a six year old set in her living room, 37", and a 42" in the den. MY brother has several,
in his bedroom and his daughters bedroom. AND WHAT about
all of the other sales that made VIZIO number one?

---

There are always good apples and bad apples. The sets may last but still don't compete with any Sony TV of same size and supposed specs. Most people are more happy that they got a CHEAP TV, and not the best one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

WHERE IS THE GROUNDSWELL of dissatisfied customers
that want their money back? I HAVE looked at the innards of
a Vizio, it looks pretty good, well put together.
ALL OF THIS talk about a lack of "quality" for a set that has
great sales records is really just a case of having nothing else
to mudsling in their faces.

---

I may not be a Groundswell, but the set I purchased didn't last 2 weeks. This puts their ISO Standard about 5 TVs from being out of compliance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

Don't like the way VIZIO makes their products? Then don't be a hypocrite, go through your house and throw out everything built the same way, which will be most everything.
BACK in the VCR days I worked at a tape plant.
FUGI, Polaroid, RCA, jvc, and more brands of tape came off of the
same line, SONY and others contract out for lesser products like boomboxes, etc.
To say that VIZIO or any other company makes "bad" products
just because you don't like them is childish and unfair.
WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS that VIZIO or any other company
that uses outsourcing produces shoddy merchandise?:1:

---

Again and again, the point you keep missing is that anyone can spec out dis-jointed components, put them together with whatever quality you want, but the bottom line is that they were not designed from the start to work flawlessly with each other to create the best performance possible.

Will the set turn on and display a picture? Yes
Will many of them last many years? Yes
Are many people happy that they were able to purchase a large TV for less than a Sony? Yes, and they may very well be using a Bose Lifestyle along with it.

Does the fact that the set was cheap and displays a picture mean it was all spec'ed, designed, built so that it is perfect and a top performing unit? No friggin way!


And here is my favorite quote but it needs to be rewritten-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelthis

millions of people don't buy tomatoes, bacon, etc for any number of reasons.
I CAN GUARENTEE that of all of the people shopping for a new panel...none were considering outsourcing practices, etc,
when looking at one, any more than they care about where
stuff is made, etc. THEY JUST WANT GOOD as cheap as possible

---

I think you meant...
They want CHEAP as good as possible.

Another thing you keep missing, and wrongly arguing about, is that almost all MFGs use outsourcing. The issue here is that the claim is some MFGs just pick already made components from an outsource, and put them together in such a way that the unit works.

Other MFGs, design all the components to work flawlessly with each other, THEN have them each made by an outsourced sub-MFG.

Do you understand that yet? From your repeated position, I am guessing not. I worked in Manufacturing for 25 years so your not gonna pull any wool over my eyes.