no center channel speaker

[fudgemik]

im just curious if i am missing anything by not using a center channel speaker , i obviously have my center set to none which i assume sends the signals to the mains when decoding DD or DTS.......I just have never had one and i am curious if i added one would it be dramatic, thanks...............................

[PeruvianSkies]

im just curious if i am missing anything by not using a center channel speaker , i obviously have my center set to none which i assume sends the signals to the mains when decoding DD or DTS.......I just have never had one and i am curious if i added one would it be dramatic, thanks...............................

Is there anything wrong with the way you are currently doing things? No.

Are you missing anything? Yes.

Would the difference be dramatic? Depends on your definition of the word 'dramatic' as well as which center channel speaker you went with in relation to your mains.

What you are currently experiencing is 'fold-down' sound, where the non-existing channels are folded into another channel, which takes away the discrete-channel experience, and by doing so you are giving the speakers more to handle, which simply means that they are not going to carry ALL the information in a fold-down setup. A discrete center channel will give you a more realistic and definited front-soundstage, which is mainly important in Home Theater applications. Typically dialogue in placed in a center channel with traveling dialogue being displaced to the left or to the right, as well as a majority of the action that passes across screen from left-center-right or vise-versa. I think that people underestimate the importance of a center channel and typically invest very little money into getting a good one. Your best option at this point is to demo a few and see if you like the difference.

[Woochifer]

The primary benefit to using a center speaker is in how it anchors the dialog in 5.1 tracks especially for people who might be sitting off-center. Plus, the center channel is discrete and it's generally better to have a center speaker handle that track than to go into the inconsistent "phantom center" that your receiver creates using the L and R main speakers.

But, the benefit to using a center speaker is only there if you sufficiently timbre match the front three speakers. Ideally, you want a seamless soundfield up front. Any mismatch with the center speaker will call attention to itself and disrupt the soundfield.

The bigger the mismatch, the better off you are without a center speaker altogether. It does not matter if the center speaker sounds better by itself, the most important consideration is how well your mains blend in with the center speaker. The option you should start with is whatever center speaker model is the "matching" model with your main speakers. But unfortunately, the "matching" center speaker in a specific speaker company's lineup does not guarantee a good tonal match (some center speakers I've heard from B&W, Boston Acoustics, and Bose very audibly mismatched the mains), in which case you might have to do a lot of back and forth comparisons with your mains to identify the best matching center speaker model.

Ideally, you'd actually want to go with three identical speakers all the way across. The horizontal alignment of a typical center speaker is more of a compromise by necessity than anything, and virtually guarantees that the timbre match with the mains will be compromised in some way. If your setup will allow for three identical speakers up front, then you should opt for that first. A horizontal center speaker exists only because the TV typically goes exactly where a third main speaker in the middle would ideally go.

[O'Shag]

Agree with Woochifer. Timbral matching is key to optimal performance, however the sophisticated eq programmes now available do compensate somewhat, although ultimately the best solution is a good timbral match.

[fudgemik]

i think i will get the matching center for my mains and try it out, thanks.....................

[PeruvianSkies]

i think i will get the matching center for my mains and try it out, thanks.....................

Good idea. Keep us posted on your results!!!!!!

[pixelthis]

When they first created stereo it had three channels, a center and left and right,
but a record wouldnt hold enough info so they created a "spatial" image which is the stereo everybody knows, and this is what your receiver is doing if its set right.
Mine creates a similar image in the back center for 7.1 stuff
But a center IS preferred, even for music, prologic II pumps some info into the center
The illusion of A center just isnt as good as a decent center speaker
This is a sorry solution but if you cant get a center just yet try pumping the line out
from your receiver into the audio in on your tv and using its speakers.
Better than nothing...

[garyoke]

I stumbled on this forum at a convenient time - I just bought a center channel, and I'm getting rid of it.

I have Infinity Compositions in the setup - originally selling for about 25% the cost of the flagship Preludes, Infinity yanked these speakers to make more money off their more expensive brother. Pity. Their accuracy and their IMAGING are legendary. I recently added an Infinity center under my 16:9 screen. I hated it.

The Preludes throw a huge soundstage. Voices move seamlessly through the "phantom" stage with precise location; center, just left of center, strong right of center, etc.

The center channel speaker just locked dialog in a very narrow range most of the time - the obvious exception being when voices moved further left or right.

I can see the value in the center channel on a plasma screen - but over/under a screen with two large, accurate front channels - I'm just not convinced.

Bottom line - whatever works for you - good luck!

[bfalls]

I stumbled on this forum at a convenient time - I just bought a center channel, and I'm getting rid of it.

I have Infinity Compositions in the setup - originally selling for about 25% the cost of the flagship Preludes, Infinity yanked these speakers to make more money off their more expensive brother. Pity. Their accuracy and their IMAGING are legendary. I recently added an Infinity center under my 16:9 screen. I hated it.

The Preludes throw a huge soundstage. Voices move seamlessly through the "phantom" stage with precise location; center, just left of center, strong right of center, etc.

The center channel speaker just locked dialog in a very narrow range most of the time - the obvious exception being when voices moved further left or right.

I can see the value in the center channel on a plasma screen - but over/under a screen with two large, accurate front channels - I'm just not convinced.

Bottom line - whatever works for you - good luck!

Well said for a self-proclaimed, two-channel guy. Not that there's anything wrong with two-channel. I'd say your observations would be valid in the days of Dolby Pro Logic where the center and surrounds were derived from a stereo input, but in a 5.1 system where each channel is discrete, carrying its own information, how do you get past the fact you're losing almost 20% of the intended information? Even if you use the two-channel mix you lose discrete rear-channel, so you'd lose rear side-to-side effects.

I understand what you're saying about imaging. I have two 5.1 systems setup in my family room, one with Legacy Focus mains the other with Klipsch Kg4 mains (both make great two-channel systems as well). I've run the Kg4s in two channel and asked friends to guess which center channel I was using. They see two center speakers and hear well-imaged sound in the middle. They're always surprised I'm only running two-channel. But, they've never preffered two-channel over 5.1 for any movie.

I have a few questions. I'm familiar with two-channel mix-downs on DVD, is this "fold-down" sound? Aren't most of these analoge streams provided for those with stereo/non-digital capable receivers? Is the "Phantom" mode derived from a digital or analogue signal? Since there isn't a "Phantom" stream on the media, wouldn't this mode be a function of the receiver/processor and dependent on how the manufacturer implements it?

I agree with your last line, whatever works for you is fine. That's what so great about audio. But on well-recorded 5.1 movies my ears can tell a big difference. However, it's less obvious on older movies where the original mix was stereo converted to 5.1.

[garyoke]

Greetings - Thanks for the reply -

First off, let me say that I admit being a bit old school, but I'm not necessarily a 2 channel guy. 20 years ago (gasp!) I ticked all my friends off by stating what was obvious to most audiophiles - CDs were vastly inferior to vinyl. Yet I invested in a sizable music library because CDs offered some strong advantages to vinyl. But the sound issues remained.

When DVD 5.1 came along I was stunned by the improvement that the incrased sampling rate had on the quality of the sound - I invested in a Nakamichi 5.1 amp (which I still run - it's musicality is tremendous) and became convinced that 5.1 was the future. (The most recent evidence of this was the extraordinary 5.1 remix of The Beatles Love DVD - a mediocre mash, but a stunning soundscape.

The Nak doesn't let me lose 20% of the audio information - when set for no center it mixes the information, incrementally in - phase to the left and right speakers. Sure dialogue gets sent there, but so does ambient sound. And I do run surround rears - so maybe, I'm a 4.0 guy!

By the way - if you want to hearing an amazing live DVD, (and you enjoy good 70s music) check out Boz Scaggs' Greatest Hits Live. The sound, and mix is absolutely state of the art. And its a high-def disc to boot. Showing off your system? I suggest you cue up the song Harbor Lights. Crank it up to a "live" level, and watch you friends drop their jaws.

Enjoy!

[musicman1999]

I agree about Boz,i have the cd version and its very good.I was unaware it was released on one of the new high def formats,is it blu-ray or hd-dvd?

bill

[pixelthis]

Greetings - Thanks for the reply -

First off, let me say that I admit being a bit old school, but I'm not necessarily a 2 channel guy. 20 years ago (gasp!) I ticked all my friends off by stating what was obvious to most audiophiles - CDs were vastly inferior to vinyl. Yet I invested in a sizable music library because CDs offered some strong advantages to vinyl. But the sound issues remained.

When DVD 5.1 came along I was stunned by the improvement that the incrased sampling rate had on the quality of the sound - I invested in a Nakamichi 5.1 amp (which I still run - it's musicality is tremendous) and became convinced that 5.1 was the future. (The most recent evidence of this was the extraordinary 5.1 remix of The Beatles Love DVD - a mediocre mash, but a stunning soundscape.

The Nak doesn't let me lose 20% of the audio information - when set for no center it mixes the information, incrementally in - phase to the left and right speakers. Sure dialogue gets sent there, but so does ambient sound. And I do run surround rears - so maybe, I'm a 4.0 guy!

By the way - if you want to hearing an amazing live DVD, (and you enjoy good 70s music) check out Boz Scaggs' Greatest Hits Live. The sound, and mix is absolutely state of the art. And its a high-def disc to boot. Showing off your system? I suggest you cue up the song Harbor Lights. Crank it up to a "live" level, and watch you friends drop their jaws.

Enjoy!

I read Absolute sound , a turntabe and tube sanctuary, in fact they just had a "vinyl lives" issue.
A few years ago they interviewed a famous record producer and engineer, this guy had a hand in a lot of famous records, and they asked him what he preferred.
He said he preffered CD of course, couldnt remember the last time he listened to a record.
Said most didnt understand what they had to cut out to get an album on one record, like
cutting the dynamic range as much as 50%.
Not only that but there is no "analog" sound anymore, you cant buy an album that hasnt
had some sort of digital processing in its creation.
But dont feel too bad, Aquafina and desani bottled water come from the tap (the news just came out)