5.1 versus 7.1?

[jmille7351]

Hello everyone,

I’m new here but not all that new to HT systems. Not real high-end stuff but I just upgraded my Receiver and fronts with a new Harmon Kardon 7.1 DPR 1001 receiver and Infinity Alpha 20’s for fronts. The rest of my stuff (Polk sub and rears) I’ve been happy with and decided not to replace them. Currently I’m still using this as an 5.1 system and I’m very happy with the overall sound and effects that I’m getting but I was wondering what I’m missing not using the other 2 rears. The guy I bought the receiver from claimed he didn’t like the 7.1 setup. He said he thought it was a distraction from the language. I’ve really never got to listen to a 7.1 setup and just wondered with new movies recorded in 7.1 how much am I missing. Is it worth putting up the other 2 speakers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much

[midfiguy]

Anyone correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as I know, there is no such thing as a commercially available 7.1 for consumers. I think DTS-ES discrete 6.1 is as high as the processing has gotten yet. There's also THX-EX and Dolby Digital EX which is a "derived" 6.1 from true 5.1. The only true 7.1 I know of is Sony's SDDS, which is only used in theaters.

I think 7.1 is for "derived" channels or ambience channels that are not discrete. But maybe there is something new out there that I don't know about.

[kexodusc]

Hi there,

The guy I bought the receiver from claimed he didn?t like the 7.1 setup. He said he thought it was a distraction from the language.

This guy is a complete goof then...the addition of speakers has nothing to do with the language or dialogue...

I?ve really never got to listen to a 7.1 setup and just wondered with new movies recorded in 7.1 how much am I missing. Is it worth putting up the other 2 speakers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much

A few things first...If your couch/seating area is against a back wall, you can pretty much forget about 7.1 setups.

As of today, there are no 7.1 channel sources on any DVD's (that I'm aware of, certainly not many if there's even 1). What you're hearing in Dolby Digital/DTS ES/EX is a 6 channel surround system, with 2 rear channels getting the rear channel signal.

As for how much you are missing, well, I would make sure you have the 5.1 setup done as well as you can before upgrading to 7.1. Proper placement, etc.
If you have room, and money to spare, then "7.1" will nicely fill in the rear.

I was quite skeptical of the improvements myself. My experiments with 6.1 were terrible. By chance, a deal came along on 2 more identical speakers to my 5.1 system, so I tried 7 channels out. The results were much improved.

In my room, it makes the surround environment feel much wider and deeper becausse of how it allows me to place my other surround speakers. The rear effects are much better and more ambient and engulfing. The side is much more open and doesn't feel confined as much.

I would say, in my opinion, it's as significant a step up from 5.1 as 5.1 was from Pro-Logic. But it doesn't come cheap and depending on your level of satisfaction with your current system, and what you use it for (stereo music/home theater) there may be other areas to upgrade first.

[Woochifer]

What you're missing depends on whether or not your room can accommodate the extra back surround channels. Basically, if your sofa backs up against the backwall, forget about 7.1 or 6.1. Get the best 5.1 speaker positioning you can fit, and be done with it.

If you have space behind the sofa, then it might be worth trying a 7.1 speaker setup. As kex said, results will vary. It's really up to you whether or not the back surround speakers are worth the trouble. Generally, I wouldn't bother if you can't voice match the back surrounds to the L/R surrounds, and/or if you have to resort to a funky placement to get the back surrounds into your room.

And back on my soapbox -- "7.1" is one of the biggest misnomers and abuses of terminology in all of home theater. Just because a receiver has seven channel outputs does not mean that it's actually "7.1." It's a misnomer because we do not refer to Pro Logic as a 5.0 system, since it has five channel outputs. But, because they are not discrete channels, the appropriate referral is 2.0 Dolby Surround.

As kex and mid pointed out, there are no commercially available 7.1 formats for consumers. ONLY DTS ES is a 6.1 format. Officially, DD EX is a 5.1 format because there are only five discrete channels (plus the .1 subwoofer track) -- the back surround channel is a matrixed channel that decodes encoded sound information (this is similar to how Pro Logic decoders extract the center channel in 2.0 Dolby Surround soundtracks). Even though the ES and EX formats have been available to consumers for four years, there are barely 100 movies out there with 6.1 encoding. Everything else out there is 5.1.

[kexodusc]

I would just add, to be fair to the marketing initiatives of receiver manufacturers, that the various DSP modes that extract "7.1" from 5.1 sources like ProLogic IIx and DTS Neo 6, do a really good job from what I've heard.
I'd also recommend if you take the plunge, don't bother with just buying a center channel and going the 6.1 route. I find the 2 rear channels does a much better job (probably has something to do with the ear lobe factors Sir Terrence talks about) than just 1 channel. You can often buy 2 bookshelfs for the price of a center channel anyway.

And don't feel "pressured" to have 7 speakers because a bunch of receivers have the capability. I have no doubt we'll be up to 13.1 in a year or two...but sooner or later it just gets rediculous. I've heard more than a few 7.1 setups that sounded horrible. A good 5.1 system does just fine.

[techgeek42]

I found a really good article about this here: http://www.techlore.com/article/10276/

[edtyct]

And when high definition audio from Dolby and DTS officially arrives with the HD formats on DVD, watch out for even greater channel envy. The extra bandwidth will further expand the number of possible channels. Too bad greater bandwidth doesn't also make houses and rooms bigger.

Ed

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And when high definition audio from Dolby and DTS officially arrives with the HD formats on DVD, watch out for even greater channel envy. The extra bandwidth will further expand the number of possible channels. Too bad greater bandwidth doesn't also make houses and rooms bigger.

Ed

Right now there is little worry about this. I think what you will see before more channels, are channels with a higher bit rate, and sample rate before you will see anything more than what is already present. There are few dubbing stages that can even mix a EX and discrete ES signal let alone 7.1 or higher. The only 7.1 configuration that can be currently be configured for the home is SDDS, and at this point there is no SDDS codecs for the home. Also there is little consensus for 5 channels up front in most current hometheaters because the closeness of the front speakers would kill imaging anyway.

Why would anyone create a 7.1 or higher mix if only a few theaters in the home, and in the professional environment could reproduce it. Ceiling channels are a possibility, but few homes have ceiling heights over 8ft, so that implies delay, and more processing that would complicate processors.

It is relatively easy to up the bit rate, or the sample rate, because the pipeline for the new upcoming formats is much larger than the 9.8kbps the current DVD standard's maximum allowance. Dts++ has a bit for bit loseless codec that is approved as an option for the new HD-DVD and Blue Ray standards.

I just cannot see more channels as benefitting most of the current hometheaters in the field.