• 05-04-2004, 04:26 PM
    jerky1280
    $200 Receiver (used/refurb/ebay)
    I'm looking for a receiver, budget under $200. Currently I have a set of audax DIY speakers and a Sony SA-WX700 I just got off Ebay. I'm looking for Ebay specials, used, refurbed, etc. I found www.harmanaudio.com, and though I found gold. Refurbished, factory warranty, etc! I've found these in my price range:
    HK AVR 210
    HK AVR 125
    HK AVR 225

    Any other receivers in my budget I should search for? This is going to be a 75/25 HT/music setup.
  • 05-04-2004, 04:40 PM
    Dale M
    Hi, I have the AVR 225, only had it a couple months but so far I think it great,
    it seems to do everything I need it to do,, good luck on whatever ya end up with
    Dale M
  • 05-04-2004, 08:26 PM
    klipschmen
    is the HTR 5740 anygood
    i like now anything about the HTR 5740 YAMAHA BEST BUY dont care it on there website i have a Rxv 793 i like get 6.1 is it good ideaget the htr5740 i have pair klipsch 3.1 :) and polk audio for my rear speakers no center channel i guess not good ideal then haa
  • 05-04-2004, 10:14 PM
    depressed
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jerky1280
    I'm looking for a receiver, budget under $200. Currently I have a set of audax DIY speakers and a Sony SA-WX700 I just got off Ebay. I'm looking for Ebay specials, used, refurbed, etc. I found www.harmanaudio.com, and though I found gold. Refurbished, factory warranty, etc! I've found these in my price range:
    HK AVR 210
    HK AVR 125
    HK AVR 225

    Any other receivers in my budget I should search for? This is going to be a 75/25 HT/music setup.

    I think that it will be hard for you to insist on the factory warranty and still get a decent unit that will bring out the best out of your speakers. However, it all depends if the manufacturer can trace your unit to an authorised store even though you are buying it from an unathorised seller. I am pointing this out because if you "undermine" the importance of a warranty, you choices slightly improve as more units will fall under your budget. How do you feel about ONKYO receivers? They apppear to be decent units that could serve you well. The specs and features of their receivers are pretty good. Maybe you would want to take a look at this one:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...094512934&rd=1
    You pointed out that you would primarily use the unit's home theater. I can recommend
    you also my unit, the YAMAHA HTR 5640 receiver. You can find that one on ebay too:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

    All units that I mentioned are also avalaible in various online stores. You can find them in local stores too, but they are more expensive there. I suggest you talk to the online sellers about their warranty's. As for the specs of these receivers, they are pretty much the same. Hope this helps. Good luck!
  • 05-05-2004, 10:09 AM
    jerky1280
    Sorry, I wasn't stating that I needed a factory warranty, just commenting on the fact that I can get one if I was to buy a receiver from harmanaudio.com. I've had some positive experience with HK in the past, and so am a little biased towards their line. However, I've heard a LOT of good feedback about Yamaha and Onkyo.

    One question. I've done some research, but haven't found a good answer. If I use my current 5.1 speakers with a 6.1 or 7.1 recever, am I going to be worse off than if I used a 5.1 receiver?
  • 05-05-2004, 10:44 AM
    depressed
    Sorry for the misunderstanding about warranty. No, you shouldn't be worse off, what would happen is that you wouldn't be using all of your's receivers capabilities. From that point of view, you could save some money by chosing a standard 5.1 DD/DTS receiver. However, the price diff. can be ignored. I would go with the 6.1 receivers. Since you want to use the receiver mostly for movies, maybe it would make sense to get a rear center speaker. Even without doing so, you would still enjoy your 5.1 content without any loss.
  • 05-05-2004, 10:59 AM
    depressed
    Btw, currently there are 37 DVD titles encoded in DTS "true" 6.1 channel surround. IMO, it is going to establish itself as a standard for the years to come. Consider it another reason for choosing 6.1 (and spending more money for receiver's and speakers :mad: )
    Off topic, I assume that Dolby isn't happy with the feedback for it's EX encoding and they will respond wih something new. Based on the fact that the majority of new receivers support DTS EX, I think it's a good move to go with it.
  • 05-06-2004, 01:56 PM
    jerky1280
    I think that I'm going to end up going with an Onkyo SR501. I've spent the last few days scouring Ebay and some other sites for good prices on higher-end units, but I think that going with a good low-priced one will save me from the headaches.

    EDIT: Just ordered one from 6ave, $206 plus shipping. You guys have been a great help, I'll be sure to post up a review once I get it.
  • 05-06-2004, 02:44 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by klipschmen
    i like now anything about the HTR 5740 YAMAHA BEST BUY dont care it on there website i have a Rxv 793 i like get 6.1 is it good ideaget the htr5740 i have pair klipsch 3.1 :) and polk audio for my rear speakers no center channel i guess not good ideal then haa

    The HTR-5740 is the same thing as the RX-V450. Look up the info that Yamaha posted on that model, and it should be pretty close to what's on the 5740. The models are mostly identical, only the distribution channels are different. No need to go to 6.1 unless you have space behind your listening position and can easily find a speaker that matches your surrounds. If your sofa is up against the backwall, you're actually better off without the rear center speaker.
  • 05-06-2004, 03:10 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jerky1280
    One question. I've done some research, but haven't found a good answer. If I use my current 5.1 speakers with a 6.1 or 7.1 recever, am I going to be worse off than if I used a 5.1 receiver?

    Won't make one bit of difference whatsoever, so long as you have the back surround channels switched off on the receiver setup. In fact, if you're in a small room with the sofa up against the backwall, you won't have enough space for 6.1 or "7.1" anyway. Get the back surround speakers only if your room can accommodate them, otherwise don't worry about them.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by depressed
    Btw, currently there are 37 DVD titles encoded in DTS "true" 6.1 channel surround. IMO, it is going to establish itself as a standard for the years to come. Consider it another reason for choosing 6.1 (and spending more money for receiver's and speakers )
    Off topic, I assume that Dolby isn't happy with the feedback for it's EX encoding and they will respond wih something new. Based on the fact that the majority of new receivers support DTS EX, I think it's a good move to go with it.

    I think there are more than 37 DTS ES titles out there, but out of the 33,000+ DVD titles out there, the number of titles with any kind of back surround encoding (DTS ES or DD EX) by any count is still less than 0.5% of the total. Given that the format's been available for home use for about four years now and the rate of new ES/EX releases has not picked up, I doubt that it will ever be a standard. But, given that the majority of receivers out there are now 6.1 or "7.1", you'll get that feature regardless of whether or not there's a lot of material to play in that format.

    Also, I don't think that any upgrade to DD is forthcoming. It's too entrenched and ubiquitous to get supplanted anytime soon. The reason they had to go to the matrixed encoding for DD EX is because they could not add a discrete back surround channel. DTS is a scalable format, which is why they could add a discrete back surround channel that's compatible with their 5.1 decoders, and why they can make a high res format like DTS 96/24 that's also backwards compatible with older DTS decoders. Terrence has also indicated that there is an eight channel version of DTS that's also been developed. I don't think that DD is similarly scalable, so any changes would entail going to a new and potentially incompatible format, and I don't see that happening. DD is built into the DVD specs as the mandatory audio format (either that or PCM, but PCM consumes a lot more disc space even in two-channel, so the vast majority of DVDs use Dolby Digital), and it is the standard audio carrier for HDTV as well. Unless a higher res audio format is mandated by the upcoming HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs, I think 5.1 DD's the de facto standard for many years to come.
  • 05-06-2004, 04:08 PM
    jackz4000
    hardware/software
    Woochifer is right on here. Only 37 titles? Seems like the software is making DD the defacto standard for the time being. And like many other audio/video consumer formats over the years it may stay that way until popular demand is there. Hardware has alot of 6.1, 7.1, 8.1 units which are "ready" or "enabled"...meaning you need to add an amp or 2 to your set-up. And speakers. And God knows where the average guy is gonna place the other extra speakers, amps, and wire?

    Its simple biz---if the big demand for the extra channels was there or perceived to be there then the dvd companies would be happy to provide it. Especially if it sells more units at a better margin. Then both hardware and software would work together as they did with formats like: color tv, stereo, vhs, cd, cdr, mp3 etc. If there is a whiff of money in the air, they will pounce on it. And if it doesn't make money---they will dump it. Simple biz.

    I got a buddy, a real family guy. Not an audiophile. Blew a bundle. Recently got the 5.1 DD set-up for the kids. He's reading now about 6.1 and 7.1 and he's asking me, "Where would I put the speakers?" He's right. In an average room, where do you put them all??? And I think 5 speakers has his wife on the edge. 7 speakers??? She won't be a happy girl.
  • 05-06-2004, 04:53 PM
    depressed
    The info I provided is from http://dtsonline.com/ I was looking to find what DVD's with the DTS ES encoding have been released. That was the search result, 37 titles. I hope you are right, though, I wouldn't mind more DTS ES encoding. Also, take a look at DTS 5.1, it's on almost every DVD along with DD. I kind of prefered dolby, meanwhile I like DTS a lot more. I don't know what way things are going to roll here in the USA, however I am certain that DTS will prevail in Europe. In Sweden, there are radio stations broadcasting their programs in DTS and DTS ES, too. Btw, check out this hilarious clip: http://www.sr.se/laddahem/multikanal/dts/norgeES.zip
    It's DTS ES encoded. Just unzip it and burn it on a cd. Or if you have a good sound card you can listen to it on your comp...
  • 05-06-2004, 08:05 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by depressed
    The info I provided is from http://dtsonline.com/ I was looking to find what DVD's with the DTS ES encoding have been released. That was the search result, 37 titles. I hope you are right, though, I wouldn't mind more DTS ES encoding. Also, take a look at DTS 5.1, it's on almost every DVD along with DD. I kind of prefered dolby, meanwhile I like DTS a lot more. I don't know what way things are going to roll here in the USA, however I am certain that DTS will prevail in Europe. In Sweden, there are radio stations broadcasting their programs in DTS and DTS ES, too. Btw, check out this hilarious clip: http://www.sr.se/laddahem/multikanal/dts/norgeES.zip
    It's DTS ES encoded. Just unzip it and burn it on a cd. Or if you have a good sound card you can listen to it on your comp...

    I think the actual number of DTS ES titles is closer to 80, but I could be wrong on this. Either way, out of 33,000+ DVD titles, that's not a lot.

    I think you need to reread my post -- Dolby Digital is part of the DVD format standard. DTS is only an optional add-on. DTS cannot prevail over DD so long as DD (or PCM) is the REQUIRED audio carrier, and DTS is only an OPTIONAL carrier. A DD decoder is included with EVERY DVD player ever made. Only a few DVD players can output a DTS signal without an external decoder, and most of the early production DVD players cannot even pass a DTS signal through the digital output. In my own collection, DTS soundtracks make up less than 25% of the DVDs I own.

    IMO, there's no denying DTS' technical superiority. The format has audibly better sound quality, and it's scalable, allowing for additional discrete channels and higher resolution. However, as with many things in digital technology, it's not always the superior format that wins out in the end. DD is a required part of the DVD format and it's built into the HDTV standard. Considering all these market obstacles, DTS has done very well. Almost all new DVD players can output a DTS signal digitally, and all new receivers now include DTS decoding. But, so long as DD remains as entrenched as it is with DVD and HDTV, it will remain the standard while DTS remains a niche player.
  • 05-06-2004, 08:13 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jackz4000
    Woochifer is right on here. Only 37 titles? Seems like the software is making DD the defacto standard for the time being. And like many other audio/video consumer formats over the years it may stay that way until popular demand is there. Hardware has alot of 6.1, 7.1, 8.1 units which are "ready" or "enabled"...meaning you need to add an amp or 2 to your set-up. And speakers. And God knows where the average guy is gonna place the other extra speakers, amps, and wire?

    Its simple biz---if the big demand for the extra channels was there or perceived to be there then the dvd companies would be happy to provide it. Especially if it sells more units at a better margin. Then both hardware and software would work together as they did with formats like: color tv, stereo, vhs, cd, cdr, mp3 etc. If there is a whiff of money in the air, they will pounce on it. And if it doesn't make money---they will dump it. Simple biz.

    I got a buddy, a real family guy. Not an audiophile. Blew a bundle. Recently got the 5.1 DD set-up for the kids. He's reading now about 6.1 and 7.1 and he's asking me, "Where would I put the speakers?" He's right. In an average room, where do you put them all??? And I think 5 speakers has his wife on the edge. 7 speakers??? She won't be a happy girl.


    That's precisely why I just shake my head everytime I hear about some new demo system like the 22.4 format that Tomlinson Holman has been pushing (I kid you not, he thinks that 22 speakers and four subs will someday be the norm). Obviously, those guys think that everybody's got some large rectangular windowless room that they can dedicate to full-time home theater use.

    Strangely, it's really been the hardware side that's gone crazy with 6.1, "7.1", "8.1", and "9.1" setups. All this despite most of the software side standardizing around 5.1.

    Any average home with the sofa pushed up against the backwall's going to have enough trouble just fitting in a 5.1 setup. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to feel that just because their receiver's got two back surround outputs that they must find any way possible to squeeze those extra speakers into the room. So, they resort to jerryrigged setups like pointing the back surround speakers down from the ceiling or blaring the speakers a few inches from their head. Not only is this impractical, but it sounds like crap as well! I mean, if you're going tear apart your room in sacrifice to the multichannel gods, it should at least sound good! With the vast majority of material available in either 2.0 or 5.1, I just don't see the point of force feeding 6.1 or "7.1" when the priority should involve getting the 5.1 playback right in the first place.
  • 05-07-2004, 09:36 AM
    nick4433
    "A DD decoder is included with EVERY DVD player ever made. Only a few DVD players can output a DTS signal without an external decoder"

    Wooch, I believe you may be wrong on this one. I don't think every DVD player has a DD decoder built in but every DVD player will definitely output the DD signal for an external encoder to decode it.
    At least the two DVD players I own need an external DD/DTS decoder since I don't see any 5.1 outs on any of the two. I have been out a little so please excuse me if this does not make any sense at all.
  • 05-07-2004, 10:53 AM
    depressed
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I think the actual number of DTS ES titles is closer to 80, but I could be wrong on this. Either way, out of 33,000+ DVD titles, that's not a lot.

    I think you need to reread my post -- Dolby Digital is part of the DVD format standard. DTS is only an optional add-on. DTS cannot prevail over DD so long as DD (or PCM) is the REQUIRED audio carrier, and DTS is only an OPTIONAL carrier. A DD decoder is included with EVERY DVD player ever made. Only a few DVD players can output a DTS signal without an external decoder, and most of the early production DVD players cannot even pass a DTS signal through the digital output. In my own collection, DTS soundtracks make up less than 25% of the DVDs I own.

    IMO, there's no denying DTS' technical superiority. The format has audibly better sound quality, and it's scalable, allowing for additional discrete channels and higher resolution. However, as with many things in digital technology, it's not always the superior format that wins out in the end. DD is a required part of the DVD format and it's built into the HDTV standard. Considering all these market obstacles, DTS has done very well. Almost all new DVD players can output a DTS signal digitally, and all new receivers now include DTS decoding. But, so long as DD remains as entrenched as it is with DVD and HDTV, it will remain the standard while DTS remains a niche player.

    Thanks for the detailed response Woochifer, I really like your pro approach in writing posts.
    There have been a couple of posts here where people asked for help deciding between 5.1/6.1 setup, and every time I failed to ask them if they HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR THE ADDITIONAL SPEAKER :D
    Unfortunately, you are right. DD is the standard, while we may agree that it doesn't deserve to be. My experience with the computer hardware lead me to my conclusions. Everyone that believes that the fastest CPU out there that has just been released is also brand new out of the labs, is mistaken. When the Pentium 4 series was first released (1.2 GHz was the first one, I believe) they were wrapping up the 3.2 GHz HT version. Pretty much the same deal with the video and sound cards, etc. Talk about marketing strategy or better yet, milkin' the cows.
    Anyway, you mentioned all the hardware that already supports the 7.1,8.1, and 9.1 formats. The overwhelming number of new receivers/DVD players that support these formats leads me to believe that the standard 5.1 is going to challenged. It would seem logical that the industry will push for it, as it would increase the sales of receivers, speakers and accessories. It does seem weird. Usually, you would have the software challenge the hardware. How often did one play the newest games on his old video card, and it looked crappy, pushing for an upgrade. I might be biased towards the 6.1 setup. Probably because I have it already. But when I think of surround, it just seems logical to have that rear channel. It's really close to the way we perceive sound. Then again, what's up with the 9.1 system? I don't think it would make sense. Do I think that just because I don't have that 9.1 setup? I don't think I am biased against it, I just don't see it as reasonable and needed. I fail to find the way to justify the existence of such formats, at least for broad public use. Maybe the industry will push for a 10.1 setup (5 speakers on the fllor and 5 on the ceiling :p ) Still, the manufacturers are pushing for the extra channels. It wouldn't be the first time in the audio/video history that a product or a feature has failed ( some of them were great) because of lack of support for such products/features.
    I do think that DD will lose it's "standard" status, it might take a while. Even if >5 channel encodings don't succeed, I'm sure that DTS (or somebody else?) will make the DD format become the "optional" soundtrack, somewhere in the near future. Woochifer has obviously enough information on this subject. The thing that concerns me is that there is no real price difference between a 6.1 and a 5.1 receiver. I had a hard time finding receivers to make this kind of comparison, because most 6.1 receivers also have some other features that would justify their higher prices. I found a couple, and there seems to be no diff. in pricing. Normally, you pay extra for additional features.
    I don't know. I still tend to think that 6.1 will become more present on the market, and God knows what will happen to the other formats, as there is no media on the market to take advantage of it...
    I just hope the video doesn't explore "multi channeling" Last thing we need is 3 three screens to watch a movie. :D
  • 05-07-2004, 11:26 AM
    Slosh
    he's correct
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nick4433
    "A DD decoder is included with EVERY DVD player ever made. Only a few DVD players can output a DTS signal without an external decoder"

    Wooch, I believe you may be wrong on this one. I don't think every DVD player has a DD decoder built in but every DVD player will definitely output the DD signal for an external encoder to decode it.
    At least the two DVD players I own need an external DD/DTS decoder since I don't see any 5.1 outs on any of the two. I have been out a little so please excuse me if this does not make any sense at all.

    If they all didn't have built in DD decoders, you wouldn't be able to hear DD soundtracks via the analog outputs. It's just that most only have stereo analog outputs that fold down 5.1 DD tracks. This, obviously, is also why most DVD players can't play DTS via the analog stereo outs (ie - they don't have built in DTS decoders).

    Since DD along with PCM is part of the DVD standard, all DVD players are required to have DD decoders. DTS is optional, thus most don't have DTS decoders.
  • 05-07-2004, 04:37 PM
    nick4433
    "If they all didn't have built in DD decoders, you wouldn't be able to hear DD soundtracks via the analog outputs. "

    Okay, either my absence from this board has dulled me or I am completely in dark about how a DVD player works.
    A DVD player will only output "PCM" signal through it's analog (L/R) outputs and a DVD player will output DD and maybe DTS via it's Optical or Coax digital output. The signal through the digital outs is still encoded and WILL need an external decoder as the one found in 99.99% of all receivers out there.

    On the other hand if a DVD player HAS a DD Decoder then it will by default have analog outs for all the 5.1 channels of DD discrete 5.1 channel sound.
  • 05-07-2004, 04:49 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nick4433
    "If they all didn't have built in DD decoders, you wouldn't be able to hear DD soundtracks via the analog outputs. "

    Okay, either my absence from this board has dulled me or I am completely in dark about how a DVD player works.
    A DVD player will only output "PCM" signal through it's analog (L/R) outputs and a DVD player will output DD and maybe DTS via it's Optical or Coax digital output. The signal through the digital outs is still encoded and WILL need an external decoder as the one found in 99.99% of all receivers out there.

    On the other hand if a DVD player HAS a DD Decoder then it will by default have analog outs for all the 5.1 channels of DD discrete 5.1 channel sound.

    Hey Nick -

    Welcome home buddy, wherever those nasty alien abductors left you has obviously done something to your short-term memory! Just so you know, some Nick clone had been posting on these boards and saying all these great things about Yamaha. I would hope you're dropping by today to undo some of that damage! :)

    Anyway, the DVD spec says that every DVD must have either a DD or a PCM soundtrack on board. Because a DD track will fit into a much smaller space, the vast majority of DVDs out there do not use the uncompressed PCM option. The DD decoder on board the DVD player will first downmix everything to two-channel before it gets output through a two-channel analog output. It's no different than when you use a digital connection to the receiver, and play it back in two-channel mode.