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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Why even talk about HIFI?

    What value do HIFI arguments bring to a community?

    Some month ago i returned as a reader and sometimes i post comments as well. What i noticed very very strongly were the amount of debates. Wether about parts quality vs. final selling price, audio reviewers which some deem of value and others not, recording quality and microphone setup and more. None of these threads really contain any actual, factual experience which is clearly statet. Some members do have a technical recording or engineering background and others do not. Rather then share and exchange their personal experiences on a technical basis, the whole thread generally tips over and becomes a personal topic or about audio note.

    Sorry for the preamble but i needed it for my follow up question. Why cant all members simply agree that people will purchase based on their preferences, budget and other limitations? I never purchase a product based on a forum member. I dont do a double blind test or direct comparison. If it sounds good i will, if i can, spend the money. Subjective and Objective performance are part of the hobby and should not be separated. Maybe i have grown older, but to come back here after years and still to find the same discussussions about the same brands and topics really shows...

    Just a thought

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  2. #2
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    If it wasn't for those posts and discussions, there would be no threads for you to see after being away for a few years.

  3. #3
    Aging Smartass
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    For as long as I can remember in this industry, whenever two or three people get together to discuss their opinions on certain pieces of equipment, disagreements and even arguments often seem to result. Criticizing a man's selection of loudspeaker of choice often is regarded as akin to questioning his manhood, fer krissakes!

    Often it isn't what one hears, but rather, what one believes he hears. I can remember a guy coming to my house for a party once who happened to notice that the bass, midrange and treble controls on my receiver had all been turned up to the 2 o'clock positions. He immediately, and even a bit angrily, turned them back to the "flat" positions because of the "distortion" I was causing. Could he actually hear such distortion? Could I? Of course not, but he believed it was there nonetheless.

    This belief even carries forth into "professional" reviews: when Harry Pearson reviewed the dbx Soundfield 1a loudspeaker, he bitterly criticized the fact the speaker required an external, powered equalizer. It wasn't that he actually heard any deterioration of sound quality when using it, but that he believed such a deterioration existed, and thusly downrated the speaker system.

    On a more amusing note, when I worked for Lafayette Radio a few centuries ago, someone wrote a funny bit called, "What is a customer?" Basicallly, it went something like this: A customer is one who carefully reads Stereo Review, High Fidelity and Audio Magazines, subscribes and religiously adheres to Consumer Reports, spends hours of listening and comparing equipment and then buys what his brother in law recommends.

    This is a strange business, but I love it anyway!

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I enjoy audio discussons with most members. I also do not make my purchases from other members suggestions but I do appreciate their input. I am amazed by how some people need to convince you their way of enjoying music is the right and only way. I have learned not to respond to those folks much like the reason I do not go to any church.

    I do not respond to Home Theater threads since I have never had a home theater. I prefer solid state and have heard few tube amps that I would not respond in a tube amp thread. If I have experience with a product I will contribute.

    I also find the few that will argue ad nauseum about a product you own that they have never heard but they know it is wrong. Writing about Hi Fi is about sound heard and not sound unheard.
    JohnMichael
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  5. #5
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Why cant all members simply agree that people will purchase based on their preferences, budget and other limitations?
    In all honesty I've haven't heard "everything", but the best sound I've heard I heard 20 years ago. If you listen to the mags you would think that the industry has progressively improved. This is not to say that their product lines haven't gotten better, perhaps so, but after 20 years you would think that that midfi would be the highend of yesterday.

    Subjective and Objective performance is, as you said, both important, but in the end, subjective is what matters the most, to me, and is determined by my ears. Though I realize that while I may think a product is superior doesn't mean that anyone will agree with me. Still, if I'm to express my enthusiasm I have to talk about what I believe. Perhaps it will fall on deaf ears (figuratively speaking), but without that enthusiasm audio discussion boards would never have existed.

    So we listen to each other, sometimes with curiosity, sometimes with disdain, but in the end we realize that we are all enthusiasts and share a common interest.

  6. #6
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Hey, Flo. I think the short answer to your question is that audio and people really haven't changed that much. Audiophiles are a passionate bunch, and as such, many times they may let their passion override all logic, reason, and sometimes good manners. This is to be lauded, after all what's a forum for outside of expressing opinions? Back in the day, we would bang heads now and again if I recall. The challenge is for posters to remember that an opinion is merely a reality defined by their own personal experiences, not a general rule of thumb. One person's perception of reality is not the same as another's.

  7. #7
    stuck on vintage dingus's Avatar
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    the experience of others is oftentimes valuable, especially to those who havent honed or even settled on what their preferences are, but also because auditioning a variety of equipment is very difficult to do these days. technical expertise is an area where online discussions have been invaluable in regards to diy and repair.

    all too easily in our debates, we sometimes fall into treating subjective opinion as objective fact. this is usually a trivial issue for the experienced, but it can lead the inexperienced down an expensive and frustrating path.
    AR MGC-1, AR C225 PS, M&K V-1B, Pioneer VSX 47TX, Oppo BDP-83, Squeezebox v3, Vortexbox Appliance.

  8. #8
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Sites like this when approached in the right spirit by its members and monitored by moderators when they don't, can offer a shared sense of community. In a world of growing isolation that can't be a bad thing. What an individual takes away from these sites and the information/opinions shared here is really up to the individual.


    BTW- Flo glad to see you back!
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  9. #9
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    What value do HIFI arguments bring to a community?
    Arguments? Likely very little.

    I come to benefit from the experience, enthusiasm and suggestions of others and try to share my own. I can't tell you how many times I've learned from others on various boards. Or helped me in the right direction when I needed a push.

    I've given greenies to many members here who have provided valuable information - even to those who I've sometimes disagreed (vehemently) with over other issues.

    Ditto thekids' welcome back. I was delighted to hear of your recent system changes.

  10. #10
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    I also find the few that will argue ad nauseum about a product you own that they have never heard but they know it is wrong. Writing about Hi Fi is about sound heard and not sound unheard.
    My problem is that I continue to engage with people who don't listen. And I engage more when I have heard what they have heard or what they own.

  11. #11
    RGA
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    Forums are useful to fill the void reviewers have left.

    For instance Stereophile has a dealer minimum and if there are not enough U.S. dealers they don't review it. And if they do review something - it only matters if the reviewer you like or know hears it like you has reviewed it. For me - anything reviewed by John Atkinson isn't much use to me. TAS is a complete write-off - don't trust the operation - there is too much "scratch my head" there and talking to reviewers at various publications just confirms my take on that magazine.

    I also don't trust some of the manufacturers out there who send out "special" units to reviewers that the regular population doesn't get. So the sound or build could be significantly better than what you might buy at a dealer. B'ah. I hate that kind of stuff. The reviewer in this case gets duped - he puts out a GLOWING review of something and then the average Joe goes and buys a completely inferior product and rails at the reviewer for not finding the problems when in fact it was the manufacturer playing games.

    Forums offer real world long term experience with gear.

    Florian is correct that things devolve into cable debates or CD/vinyl/digital debates but that to me is understandable.

    I for one want to know why certain tube amps sound far more accurate, real, and like live than SS which measures a lot better and on paper should win. The answers I've received have never made sense - "you like 2nd order distortion." Distortion shoudl sound fuzzy - a voice should warble, a transient should lack the leading edge of a string, cymbal crashes should have less crash and more mush etc. That is distortion - the opposite happens and I get puzzled. Then I realize the person who is making that argument has never heard any of the things I have heard and I scratch my head as to where they came up with the argument. They read a SS maker's white paper/press release - ah now i get it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    Forums are useful to fill the void reviewers have left.

    For instance Stereophile has a dealer minimum and if there are not enough U.S. dealers they don't review it. And if they do review something - it only matters if the reviewer you like or know hears it like you has reviewed it. For me - anything reviewed by John Atkinson isn't much use to me. TAS is a complete write-off - don't trust the operation - there is too much "scratch my head" there and talking to reviewers at various publications just confirms my take on that magazine.

    I also don't trust some of the manufacturers out there who send out "special" units to reviewers that the regular population doesn't get. So the sound or build could be significantly better than what you might buy at a dealer. B'ah. I hate that kind of stuff. The reviewer in this case gets duped - he puts out a GLOWING review of something and then the average Joe goes and buys a completely inferior product and rails at the reviewer for not finding the problems when in fact it was the manufacturer playing games.

    Forums offer real world long term experience with gear.

    Florian is correct that things devolve into cable debates or CD/vinyl/digital debates but that to me is understandable.

    I for one want to know why certain tube amps sound far more accurate, real, and like live than SS which measures a lot better and on paper should win. The answers I've received have never made sense - "you like 2nd order distortion." Distortion shoudl sound fuzzy - a voice should warble, a transient should lack the leading edge of a string, cymbal crashes should have less crash and more mush etc. That is distortion - the opposite happens and I get puzzled. Then I realize the person who is making that argument has never heard any of the things I have heard and I scratch my head as to where they came up with the argument. They read a SS maker's white paper/press release - ah now i get it.
    SET triode amps are more accurate than any ss amps unless driven into clipping. Yes, you need a HE speaker, but there are more of those today.

  13. #13
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    SET triode amps are more accurate than any ss amps unless driven into clipping. Yes, you need a HE speaker, but there are more of those today.
    Sir Terrence

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  14. #14
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Flo,
    Most audio sites are much look dog training websites. People are very passionate about the topics, and some folks get personally vested to the point of irrationality. My experience here is no different than on Dog forums. You have people who are casual home trainers arguing with professional trained and certified behaviorist and trainers. The same happens here. This is just the nature of online forums I think. Nobody who has spent their lifetime doing something they are educated to do wants somebody who has ZERO experience(and lacks the perspective) how to do what they do. Yet it happens. Some people don't like the idea that you have access to information they don't - especially when they are debating with you. Some people need to realize that some folks come from another perspective they do. I am a audio engineer with 25 years experience, so my perspective is going to be a little different than that of the casual listener.

    Some very valuable information has come out of debates here. I recognize this, so don't look at these debates as a bad thing. If we didn't have them, the sound of crickets would be deafening.
    Sir Terrence

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  15. #15
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    i for one have benefited from the advice and experience of others and hope that some of my own experience can benefit others.

    as far as hp's inference that the external eq or processor can be heard, that's true. ANY electronic stage added to a system can be heard, even with no music passing through it. the best systems have very direct pathways.

    its not to say that all additive circuits cause negative effects but many times its true.

    long term listening will reveal things wrong with the sound because your mind is analytical and re examines its input in an ongoing basis. quick A/B comparisons are good for some things and not so for others.

    i am always open to learning and that has resulted in many improvements in all phases of my life including audio. i do not always go the way of enlightenment due to some of my perverse preferences.
    ...regards...tr

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Thank you all so much for your replies, it is very interesting and some posts even prove the thoughts i had. I will write a more extensive answer, but it takes more time.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    My problem is that I continue to engage with people who don't listen. And I engage more when I have heard what they have heard or what they own.


    I appreciate your sharing your experience and knowledge with someone who shares your interest in equipment. Those of us who enjoy different equipment to reach our musical goal your posts and others posts can be easily overlooked because it is often much the same advice.
    JohnMichael
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  18. #18
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    if we don't participate, the forums will dry up like the turntable forum here. i find it hard to believe that the tt forum doesn't have more participation.
    ...regards...tr

  19. #19
    Forum Regular michaelhigh's Avatar
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    I too benefit from various and sundry opinion on forums. It gives me great fodder with which to fuel research. This, along with little to no ability to audition beyond purchase and 30-day trials, gives me a basis with which to make somewhat informed choices. As my budget becomes available I make limited purchases and concentrate on local used gear as a result. I have a few friends whose castoffs are more than acceptible to a burgeoning audiophile, and make great steppingstones into the lower high-end. I've been perusing the interwebs for two years now, and rather than buying anything I see and afford, I choose and move with better acumen. It's been a real pleasure growing and conversating with those I see in various and sometimes multiple places. It seems we all hit Google with the same search terms, only at different times!

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