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  1. #1
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Why Buy Real HiFi...?

    Just a thought about budget this grey Sunday morning.

    Why Buy Real Hi-Fi?

    Like everything in life you get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap hifi or home cinema product and plug it in it will work (well most of the time) but you won't actually enjoy it.


    It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.

    Peace

    Bernd:
    Last edited by Bernd; 04-02-2006 at 08:24 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    You are right, but ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    ....
    Like everything in life you get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap hifi or home cinema product and plug it in it will work (well most of the time) but you won't actually enjoy it.

    It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.
    ..
    Peace

    Bernd:
    My mother always told me the same thing, (and still does, at age 87). "Buy what you really want; don't settle for for something else you'll regret wasting your money on."

    Nevertheless there is a lot of relativity. I might really want Soundlabs, (sorry, not Arts), but I would pine away for the rest of my life. Fortunately, the Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's were any easy choice, (the 3.6's just a little too far over the horizon).

    Take care though, Bernd, that you don't start to sound like the high-end snob, Florian.

  3. #3
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    My mother always told me the same thing, (and still does, at age 87). "Buy what you really want; don't settle for for something else you'll regret wasting your money on."

    Nevertheless there is a lot of relativity. I might really want Soundlabs, (sorry, not Arts), but I would pine away for the rest of my life. Fortunately, the Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's were any easy choice, (the 3.6's just a little too far over the horizon).

    Take care though, Bernd, that you don't start to sound like the high-end snob, Florian.
    Hi Feanor,

    I hope I didn't come over snobish. It's the last thing that I am. In a sentence what I meant was this. The cheapest or best buy product does not always make the most economical, musical (or even emotional) sense.It is often better to wait some time and buy the next or a revised model up in the range or as you displayed, opt for something that gets you as close to your want as you can get.
    I hope that clears that up as it was meant only as advice, to not let the money burn a hole in your pocket and regret it later.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Last edited by Bernd; 04-02-2006 at 08:48 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  4. #4
    Forum Regular patpong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. :
    In this HiFi world, it's very important, FIRST, to know what you want.... If you think about it, that's not so easy to really know what you want and need, even before discovering what type of equipments or brand name to go with... I jumped from brands to brands, from solid-state to tubes, from cones to ribbon. Took me a couple of years and lots of money to finally settle with my current set up, that make me so happy. ..... So, not only the more you pay, the better you get. You could pay more but then, the less actually could make you more satisfy. That's the trick.

  5. #5
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patpong
    In this HiFi world, it's very important, FIRST, to know what you want.... If you think about it, that's not so easy to really know what you want and need, even before discovering what type of equipments or brand name to go with... I jumped from brands to brands, from solid-state to tubes, from cones to ribbon. Took me a couple of years and lots of money to finally settle with my current set up, that make me so happy. ..... So, not only the more you pay, the better you get. You could pay more but then, the less actually could make you more satisfy. That's the trick.
    Hi patpong and welcome,
    You're right what you said. That's exactly why I started this thread. I also danced around a bit until I found what satisfies me. I does pay to make informed choices and don't go for the first available option, but once you know what you like try and get the best you can.
    I like your set up. Very smart.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  6. #6
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    I agree with what you've all said...

    But it's all relative however. What made us "happy" at 16 is far different from what makes us happy at 46. Our desires and tastes change with time, life and the vagaries of technology. I remember buying my first CD's and thinking "man it don't get no better than this". A small, portable format that has none of the flaws of vinyl. I was in heaven. Now I listen to those "first generation" CD's and realize I must've been deaf. They sound like ass and most, if not all of them have been "remastered" to put in what was left out the first time. All this being said to point out, as PatPong said, you first have to know what you want and then figure out how to get it. Sad part is to find out 15 years later that what you wanted then is worthless now.

    Da Worfster

  7. #7
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Like everything in life you get what you pay for. If you buy a cheap hifi or home cinema product and plug it in it will work (well most of the time) but you won't actually enjoy it.
    There are some terrible entry level stereo setups out there that prey on the unsuspecting newbie that really are a waste of money, on that point, I agree. But I think cases like this or an extreme, not the rule.

    The notion of "you get what you pay for" has long been known to be far from absolute. If there has ever been a product sold that was not only cheaper, but also better than its competitor's offering, we can agree the "get what you pay for" concept is not universally true. At the very best, the most we can say is "you get what you pay for sometimes". Other times, there's a better deal to be had. Sometimes signifcantly so.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done.
    I disagree here. I'm currently renovating my dedicated music studio/stereo room and my home theater room. About 2 months ago, I bought a few samples of fabric wrapped acoustic wall panels from a company in the USA. Curiosity got the better of me after reading up on some home studio forums, and I decided to dissect the acoustic treatment. There's not much to them really. A small, wooden frame enclosing some rigid fiberglass material of a specific density and thickness, and non-acoustic fabric. I decided I could easily make these myself, for not only cheaper, but better construction in the size, shape, and colors I wanted.
    So I spent a few weeks searching for some rigid fiberglass material with sound absorbing properties that met my needs. I found this material is not readily available to retail consumers like myelf, especially in Atlantic Canada, so I placed a few calls to some local air conditioning/heater contractors. I finally found some Owens Corning OC 703 and 705 material in the thicknesses I needed. The best price I could get was about $1.69 USD per square foot shipped to me from Maine, USA.
    I almost placed an order when a member at another forum I frequent sent me one last phone number to a place in Canada that distributes a competitors brand of rigid fiberglass (Ottawa Fibre Inc). I made a few inquiries into the comparability of the two products, and found the OFI stuff actually outperforms the OC stuff (albeit in amounts that likely won't produce audible results)and is the preferred material of several acoustic treatment companies. . Best part was, the price of the OFI was a mere $0.77 Cdn. Same stuff, less than 1/2 the price. I'm told the raw materials are in excess in Canada and that OFI has a much more modern production facility, two cost advantages (which are neutralized somewhat when the insulation is exported back to the USA).
    Long story short I ended up buying twice as much material as I had planned. Definitely a case where I paid a little to get a lot more.

    At the very least, if you can't pay a little for a lot, we could say there is a high probability of paying a lot for a little. I see this every day in my profession. I spend a great deal of time travelling North America visiting with companies of all sorts and sizes in hopes of finding solid investment opportunites for my investment management firm. One thing I've observed is that profit margins are almost always inversely proportional with company size. That is, huge international companies don't have mark-ups on their products as much as smaller-cap companies. Not always, but I'm working on a small research project now and the statistics we've collected greatly support this blanket statement.

    I think this holds true when it comes to audio equipment as well. Few people will argue the rule of diminishing returns on audio equipment. Profit margins and cost structures are the two biggest reasons why.

    I think today, consumers are a bit wiser than before. We don't just want to know the costs, we want to know why a product costs what it does. Often it is the answers to these questions that reveal the true merits and qualities of a product. Higher price is less and less an indication of product superiority.

    If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.
    Good advice. I would follow up by suggesting you ask "why" a company is able to bid so low. If the answer is cutting corners (and it often is) than a risk premium is definitely in order. Or at least buy some insurance. However, if the answer is technological, geographic, or other inherent business advantages, then we have a different case on our hands. It is entirely possible that the lowest bidder is able to squeeze out its competitors and still meet your needs. Competition can be a good thing sometimes.

    I've really indulged myself in the speaker building hobby over the last 2 years. One trend that is becoming more and more apparent to all DIY-ers is the emergence of Asian driver manufacturers (and a widespread shift in production facilities to Asian markets). A few years ago, Chinese and Indian facilities were producing low cost drivers and carbon copy knock-offs of more reputable European drivers. Today their making their own, and with the help of foreign (read American/Japanese) Quality Control initiatives, have really started making some high quality drivers for very competitive prices, even a few premium quality, hand-made models. Unfortunately, there's still plenty of stinkers out there so one has to do more than just shop for Asian made drivers

    The emergence of Asian competition is being felt worldwide throughout the industry. Large speaker manufacturers are shifting production. Energy, and B&W are the first two that come to mind.

    Tymphony, formerly DST, formerly Vifa-Speak - producers of Vifa, Peerless, Scan-Speak (and a few less common, more esoteric brands) are one of the largest producers of audio drivers in the world for. Today, the bulk of their business is supplying non-mainstream speaker companies with "proprietary drivers" (which are usually slight mods on existing models, often purely cosmetic.
    We've probably ALL owned at least one speaker with a Vifa/Peerless/Scan-Speak driver in it at one point...common entry-level brands like JBL, Infinity, Polk, Paradigm, PSB etc all used drivers made by these guys. Higher end speakers have used their drivers as well. This year they announced the end of arguably the most recognized brand name in driver history - Vifa. A lot of production facilities are being moved to Asia because of various production advantages offered.

    I think this is just the beginning. Hopefully it unfolds in a way that delivers cost savings to the consumer without sacrificing product selection, quality, and availability.

    I believe there are two ways to buy an audio system. The first is knowing exactly what you want, then saving your money and buying it.
    The second, and arguably the more common approach, is to determine how much you are willing to allocate to an audio system -anywhere from $500 to $50,000 - and then proceed in looking for the "best you can afford".

    I've used both methods myself. I've had more success with the latter however. One of the great things about being on the road so much is that I get to visit a lot of hi-end audio shops (and unforunately some really low-end ones as well).
    I probably listen to more variety of speakers in a year than many (I really don't get as excited demoing amps and pre-amps for some reason), and I still haven't found one that really made me think I absolutely HAD to own it at all costs.
    If I had to pick, my absolute favorite speaker to date is the Focus Audio FS-888. It's not the most expensive one I've heard, retailing for a only $8200 or so, but to my ears it is the point where spending double or triple on some other brands yields next to no audible improvement. I think I'd give a close second to the Maggie MG20's and the VR-11's (for cool factor if nothing else), but the Focus Audio's reign supreme here (not to mention cost 1/16 of the VR-11's).
    I realize speakers appreciation is quite subjective, but I don't believe anyone would tell me the FS-888's are un-listenable when placed beside the VR-11's, or that the VR-11's are 10 times better.
    I think this radical example represents what a lot of audio enthusiasts try to acheive when buying a system - maximizing performance given their resources. And I don't believe that someone means their systems are necessarily inferior or that they are less an "audiophile" for doing so.

    Just my opinion though.. great thread - thanks!

  8. #8
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Phew, Thanks Kex great response and some valid points raised, which is after all what this is about.
    The Far East example is interesting as a similar thing happened in the 70's and almost killed the European Audio Industry. Hopefuly we have learned and can survive side by side.

    As for mark up, you are most likely correct with that. But with low mark up comes big volume of sales. And I rather buy from a company with the motto "If you want to keep control you got to keep it small". Example: I just came of the phone from chatting to Derek Dunlop (Co-owner of ART). We talked about all sorts of things audio in an unhurried fashion. Try that with a big company. You wouldn't get past "Tracy" at the switchboard. I was direct through to my man.

    As I have said many times before you need to know what you are looking for and then have a budget and put some effort into the selection process.
    Your example with the acoustic stuff was good and if you can get the same or better at a cheaper price, you'd be a fool not to take it.

    But what really gets up my back is the preaching of how wonderful the sound is from bargain basement stuff. Yes it's all very relative, and as you said diminishing returns is certainly something to think about. I believe however it also works the other way. There comes a point when you will leave Best Buy Budget Land sound and take steps at a more performance orientated level. And if you stand on that threshold I am sure it pays to wait and safe some more green to take that step.
    A very basic example are Arcams CDP. Very good machines, but the lower priced ones are very much similar to one another. So if you owned a model 73 and you want to upgrade it would make sense to wait and get the FMJ top of the line machine, rather then the new '73. Very different sounding.

    But in the end it's down to you, me and all the other audio buyers to what we place value on. Have not heard a perfect anything yet. Now that would be boring.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  9. #9
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    But it's all relative however. What made us "happy" at 16 is far different from what makes us happy at 46. Our desires and tastes change with time, life and the vagaries of technology. I remember buying my first CD's and thinking "man it don't get no better than this". A small, portable format that has none of the flaws of vinyl. I was in heaven. Now I listen to those "first generation" CD's and realize I must've been deaf. They sound like ass and most, if not all of them have been "remastered" to put in what was left out the first time. All this being said to point out, as PatPong said, you first have to know what you want and then figure out how to get it. Sad part is to find out 15 years later that what you wanted then is worthless now.

    Da Worfster
    Totaly agree with you here. Our tastes do, and should, change with time. Music, tolerance, women, food, etc.
    My 17 year old step son thinks the i-pod is the holy grail. It reminds me so of Bose. But I leave him to it.
    I had a Technics CDP in the 80s. Oh yeah man "perfect sound forever" more like finger nails on the blackboard. Sold most of my vinyl that time. What was I smoking then.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  10. #10
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Exclamation No way, Kex

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    ....

    I think this holds true when it comes to audio equipment as well. Few people will argue the rule of diminishing returns on audio equipment. Profit margins and cost structures are the two biggest reasons why.

    I think today, consumers are a bit wiser than before. We don't just want to know the costs, we want to know why a product costs what it does. Often it is the answers to these questions that reveal the true merits and qualities of a product. Higher price is less and less an indication of product superiority.

    ...
    Just my opinion though.. great thread - thanks!
    High-end audio is all about high prices and high margins. It is all about persuading the consumer that the law of diminishing returns somehow does not apply to audio to the usual extent.

    High-end audio consumers are, of course and for better or worse, a niche market. Niche marketing supports high prices; high prices support high margins. High margins in turn support ridiculously inefficient manufacturing methods, viz. cottage industry.

    Judged by rationale criterion, high-end products are, (with a very few, scarce exception), are atrocious value. By extension, high-end buyers are, in general, suckers.

    Of course, there are plenty of individual exceptions: people seek audio value, whether because they are atypically rational and/or poor yet still yearn for excellant sound.

  11. #11
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    The Far East example is interesting as a similar thing happened in the 70's and almost killed the European Audio Industry. Hopefuly we have learned and can survive side by side.
    I think it's a bit different this time around. My limited understanding of the 70's scenario was that the Japanese led the charge making quality items at reasonable prices, but they tended to stick to the safe products that with larger demands. And they did this at a time when the rest of the world was offering less than inspiring products at higher prices.

    Today I look at 2 companies like Tang-Band and Hi-Vi who have roots in Asia but are now global operations, with shareholders from around the world, engineers from Europe and America, and production facilities in Asia. Sure they make budget stuff, but their also making some top of the line stuff too. This is a concentrated global effort that's just taking advantage of China's inexpensive production advantages (just like every other industry these days).

    As for mark up, you are most likely correct with that. But with low mark up comes big volume of sales. And I rather buy from a company with the motto "If you want to keep control you got to keep it small".
    I subcribe to the motto "if you can't have your cake and eat it too, you aren't trying hard enough". Toyota and Yamaha (not talking their puny audio division, but the whole conglomerate) are two very large, mass market companies that subscribe to the traditional Japanese business philosophy of quality first, and everything else will take care of itself. Often, even companies with good inentions don't try hard enough to keep their costs low without sacrificing quality. Both of these companies have modest profit margins, not the lowest, but nowhere near the highest, have phenomenally low overhead compared to their competitors, and don't try to be everything to everyone. Both of these companies aren't trying to be market share leaders, just run effective operations true to their business philosophies. They've carved niches (at large, mass-market proportions) and have happily remained inside their boxes. I think that's been the secret of their success.
    In Toyota's case, if it wasn't for predatory protectionist tariffs governments stuck on imports on the taxpayers dime for decades, I suspect they'd have already surpassed Ford worldwide for market share. But that's a different story.
    All this to say quality and value are not mutually exclusive as we have been conditioned to believe.

    Example: I just came of the phone from chatting to Derek Dunlop (Co-owner of ART). We talked about all sorts of things audio in an unhurried fashion. Try that with a big company. You wouldn't get past "Tracy" at the switchboard. I was direct through to my man.
    That's true, and a very valid point. Some people are willing to pay extra for this luxury, some people could care less and don't perceive it as value added at all. I find myself on both sides of this fence depending on what the product is.

    But what really gets up my back is the preaching of how wonderful the sound is from bargain basement stuff. Yes it's all very relative, and as you said diminishing returns is certainly something to think about. I believe however it also works the other way. There comes a point when you will leave Best Buy Budget Land sound and take steps at a more performance orientated level. And if you stand on that threshold I am sure it pays to wait and safe some more green to take that step.
    There's no denying the obvious limitations of Best Buy systems. That said, for many people they provide all the satisfaction ever needed for a reasonable price. I think we lose sight of what Best Buy customer goals often are - reasonable performance on a strict budget.
    However, I'm not sure the "value approach" ever disappears at any performance threshold. Everyone wants to get the most for their dollar. It could be my business training preaching, but I always pursue my purchases in audio from the perspectives of "utility" (satisfaction per dollar spent) and "effective allocation of resources" (most improvement per dollar spent).
    For me, there are very real limits on "utility". I have too many other hobbies in my life that occupy my free time, and only so much free time, so I doubt I'll ever be at a point where I will buy or build a $500,000 audio system. There are just too many high performance cars, snowmobiles, motorcylces, boats, fishing rods, and other material objects on my luxury items list that would give me more satisfaction than owning the "best system on earth". In fact, I can say with full confidence that there is a limit where spending more money on audio won't provide me with any more satisfaction (unless I place an intangible premium on owning such gear - I don't). At that point I stop hearing "better" sound and only hear "different" sound. I suspect some people are similarly content to stay in Best Buy land. Good for them. If they can extract more pleasure out of JBL speakers than I can, I won't belittle their gear or their hearing ability.

    The second aspect, "effective allocation of resources" is where I think most people make mistakes in building systems. Especially when upgrading. It's easy to throw money at a system, I just hope when people do, they do so in a manner that makes the biggest improvement per dollar spent. I tested a pair of RGA's beloved Audio Note AN E's with a cheap Denon stereo receiver, and a pair of $1000 Paradigms with a very expensive MacIntosh amp/pre-amp. The two systems were comparable in price, but the better speakers made all the difference despite the entry-level electronics behind them. So I cringe a bit when I see hi-end DAC's, cables, and amps being substituted in systems with no room treatments and mid-fi speakers...

    But in the end it's down to you, me and all the other audio buyers to what we place value on. Have not heard a perfect anything yet. Now that would be boring.
    Ain't that the truth?
    Some people are "married" to their audio gear. I think this emotional attachment blinds them to rational suggestions for ways to improve.
    Of course, in the end, at some point you just have to decide between spending more, or staying status-quo.

  12. #12
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Good to read your post.
    As far as I remember the 70s "invasion" we had very limited choice and lots of Flat earth BS. The Japanese industry machine saw a gap and came in and yes, there where some great products but also many stinkers. The quality part of the great products has always impressed me. I think I mentioned before the best CDT and DAC I have ever heard is the Zanden. And if anything new will come into my home it will be this baby. I am satisfied with what I own without going into debt.

    For me Toyota all day long. Would never go near a Ford.

    I would never belittle someone elses system, it's simply just not my style and I do not feel any envy for what somebody else owns.Good luck to them. It's just when an owner of a budget system who is happy with that, thinks it gives him/her now all knowledge of musical reproduction, and advises people that they don't need to spent some money to enjoy great reproduction, that i question the motive. Music can be enjoyed anywhere by me but to appreciate a performance a Best Buy system will not do.
    It took me 30 years to be where I am. And I could have done things different and saved some money. To eager when you're young and having some money burning a hole into your pocket.

    You're right of course about funds allocating to other interests. I also have some other pastimes(Stalking,my dogs,Photography,Flyfishing), but the main one is enjoying my system playing the music I like how I like it.
    I think if the first steps on the ladder are taken with care the resulting satisfaction will be much more then if you're going and buy blind the latest Magazine 5* Super test winner.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Last edited by Bernd; 04-03-2006 at 09:14 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    It's just when an owner of a budget system who is happy with that, thinks it gives him/her now all knowledge of musical reproduction, and advises people that they don't need to spent some money to enjoy great reproduction, that i question the motive.
    Intersting that you bring this up. I think i heard this before from myself. I have been preeching this for months on this forum and only got spat in my face. Well, lets say its my writing style.

    This diminishing returns is all good for fun and games but how about the people whos goal is the absolut sound and who disregard prices. If i dont have to money to buy what i want, i work and save my money until i can actually buy it. But most people dont want to wait and look for the "deal of the week" and then look for the mass of followers to justify their purchase.

    I started with 4 Alarmclock Radios all tunes to the same station!

    I have been working for years and got lucky on many purchases and have a goal and i know what i want and will do what it takes. I do not understand nor do i accept it when people with a great budget system go around telling youngsters that you dont have to spend good money to get a good product because of diminishing returns. This is crap! At what price does this kick in? This depends entirely on your range and your budget. In my opinion it kicks in at around 15K *new price for a amp or CD-Player.

    How can i say such an outrages thing? Because i heard directly in my home or my friends home equipment from Jadis, Goldmund, Krell, ARC, Apogee, Infinity IRS-BETA, Acoustats, Silvaweld etc.... and these form "Price wise" the end of the realm. And i can asure you that the Goldmund CD36 CD Turntable with the DAC beats the living hell out of my Wadia! The Goldmund Turntable for 26K beats the living heck out of the 6K Thorens i heard.

    Is the difference worth 20K? Well that depends on you, but for me it is. I will work and save until i can buy one. And i find it highly wrong to cut down those who invest MUCH more time, money and effort into their audio system than any typical Best Buy or Internet people who follow some cheesy Dolby Guidelines (this is no attack to Woochiefer, he is helpfull with that) or the ones putting a few Paradigms, Axioms, Infinitys or whatever speakers in a circle.

    It takes a lot of work and dedication to reach your goals and if you dont have them thats fine but dont tread on those who do.

    -Florian
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  14. #14
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    I would never belittle someone elses system. It's just when an owner of a budget system who is happy with that, thinks it gives him/her now all knowledge of musical reproduction, and advises people that they don't need to spent some money to enjoy great reproduction, that i question the motive. Music can be enjoyed anywhere by me but to appreciate a performance a Best Buy system will not do.
    The more experienced audiophiles on this site echo this statement quite a bit. I can only recall 1 person here at ar.com who's ever boldly stated that more expensive amps, cables, DAC's, etc won't present at least some audible improvement. I haven't seen him post here in over 2 years.

    I think a lot of statements are made in context here that are easily misinterpreted by others simply because this is a web-forum relying on written communication. I get caught in this trap occassionally, and find myself having to choose between posting a legal document or something more streamlined.
    From what I've seen, most posters here appreciate good gear. They just don't like being told they don't know good from bad simply because they don't own a system of some arbitrary level of performance. Then there are others who are out of touch with some of the lower-cost offerings of today and how good they can sound. If you're on a tight enough budget and desperate enough, you can squeeze a lot of performance out of anything. Just ask those kids with the Honda Civics who buy performance air filters and mufflers to get that last 5 HP. Sooner or later a big-block V-8 is in order, but in the meantime, do what you can...

    In my case, I quite frequently visit hi-fi shops and have friends/relatives with systems far superior to mine. I like to think I know what's out there (though I stumble across references to new equipment almost daily now).
    There are a few people here that really adore the gear they have and constantly recommend it to inquiring individuals like a vacuum salesman pushing Hoovers.

    I try to take it all with a grain of salt. There are a few popular speakers and some equipment that I really cannot bring myself to like no matter how much praise they receive. I pretty much feel this way about every Polk Audio speaker available. And my all time least favorite is Dynaudio...(I'm sure I've just pissed off 43 ar.com members). It's not so much that they sound bad, but rather they sound worse than other models I can recall that are far cheaper. Yet they continue to amaze me with a strong following. I know nobody in the DIY market's given them a second thought since they pulled out. Sadly, I see Scan-speak following suit, existing only as a branch of some hi-end commercial speaker brand where the competition is less intense and they still represent some value. (with apologies to the Revelator tweeters which can take an ungodly amount of punishment and still play clean).

    You're right of course about funds allocating to other interests. I also have some other pastimes(Stalking,my dogs,Photography,Flyfishing), but the main one is enjoying my system playing the music I like how I like it.
    Uhh...stalking? How does one get started in that pastime?

    I think if the first steps on the ladder are taken with care the resulting satisfaction will be much more then if you're going and buy blind the latest Magazine 5* Super test winner.
    That's true. I think perhaps making mistakes is the only way to learn in audio. One can't rely too much on websites and reviews, either. I own a pair of $300 speakers I bought for my dining room that were compared quite favorably by several magazines, and the cult-like following on their web-forum, to another pair of speakers I have that have a price tag 4X higher. They aren't even close. Which is a shame, because the speaker does quite well for a measly $300, and doesn't need to make such claims.
    Seems every new speaker company presents itself as the latest "giant killer" in audio. Especially the ones that advertise on this site and are only "factory direct". It can be a bit tiresome.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Hey Kex, maybe you are not too different to me afterall. Maybe its my writing style, but i have to agree with you. I always asumed that Wooch, You etc.. do not understand and cannot hear the difference between the budget of the week gear or per say a Infinity IRS-BETA etc...
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  16. #16
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Uhh...stalking? How does one get started in that pastime?Quote.

    Get a Rifle, a deer stalking certificate level I and II, find some land, get permission to stalk Red Deer, in Scotland preferably, sink a dram or two of good Scotch and bag that gold medal stag.
    Easy peasy. NOT.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    High-end audio is all about high prices and high margins. It is all about persuading the consumer that the law of diminishing returns somehow does not apply to audio to the usual extent.
    That response kinda saddens me. My guess is that you have never known or spoken with the principles of any high end company. MOST of them (in my experience of course) do not drive an S Class Mercedes as a result of "high margins". Jud Barber of Joule Electra runs his company from an office behind his house. All of their products are hand made. Sound Labs is another small company where you can directly speak or converse with Dr. West. JPS Labs is Joe P. Skubinski. VTL is run by Luke Manley and his wife, Bea. What all of these folks have in common is a passion for music. And the need to make a living. High end is not a "get rich quick" market.

    rw

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That response kinda saddens me. My guess is that you have never known or spoken with the principles of any high end company. MOST of them do not drive an S Class Mercedes as a result of "high margins". Jud Barber of Joule Electra runs his company from an office behind his house. All of their products are hand made. Sound Labs is another small company where you can directly speak or converse with Dr. West. JPS Labs is Joe P. Skubinski. VTL is run by Luke Manley and his wife, Bea. What all of these folks have in common is a passion for music. And the need to make a living. High end is not a "get rich quick" market.

    rw
    I agree with that, same as Sphinx, Etallon, Apogee (was) and many more. It takes a LOT of time to design a product. B&W and others do not have this problem.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  19. #19
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    It's not a personal thing

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That response kinda saddens me. My guess is that you have never known or spoken with the principles of any high end company. ...
    rw
    E-Stat,

    The personal motive of the principals of high-end companies is beside the point. Likely most of the are really nice guys. But I'm talking about market dynamics.

    Most audiophiles aren't stupid either, nevertheless many are more or less willing victims of the diminishing returns exemption attitude.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    E-Stat,

    The personal motive of the principals of high-end companies is beside the point. Likely most of the are really nice guys. But I'm talking about market dynamics.

    Most audiophiles aren't stupid either, nevertheless many are more or less willing victims of the diminishing returns exemption attitude.
    Can you maybe name a example? I personally would feel much more betrayed when spending 10 K on a big B&W who we know for sure are not small and have no financial worries then spending 10K on a handbuild and designed Silvaweld or Goldmund amp. The poor returns are much greater with a B&W and Rotel then with some High End gear out there. But people dont complain about that. In my opinion.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  21. #21
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    I agree with that, same as Sphinx, Etallon, Apogee (was) and many more. It takes a LOT of time to design a product. B&W and others do not have this problem.
    This is consistent with my experiences the last few years. The best speakers I've heard are not common brand names most would be familiar with. Instead it's been smaller, regional/local speaker designers, often former engineers of larger companies, setting up one-man operations in their homes doing it all by hand.

    This is where the industry is going, I believe. There will always be some demand for the large, brand name speaker companies. And definitely for driver manufacturers to supply everyone. The only advantage a giant like B&W or Paradigm has is the production means (and R&D to an extent, though if the R&D is any good, it's copied fast)

    A small company in the USA called North Creek Music Systems offers a few budget speakers below $500 that I'd take over my old $1100 Studio 40's in a heartbeat. They offer them in kit form for $150 -$250, but with the cabinets they can approach $500-$600 pretty fast. A company like B&W can pump out decent speaker cabinets on the cheap in huge quantities. It's not so much that the little guys are ripping people off, but hand crafted cabinets and wood finishes take time...I'd say 95% of my projects actual construction is in the cabinet/finish, even though it's the least expensive part of the design, material-wise.
    And these guys don't work for free, nor should they be expected to.
    These guys make speakers and run their businesses full-time. They aren't also huge corporate marketing/distribution machines at the same time, so they don't get the wide exposure of B&W, Energy, etc.

  22. #22
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Can you maybe name a example? I personally would feel much more betrayed when spending 10 K on a big B&W who we know for sure are not small and have no financial worries then spending 10K on a handbuild and designed Silvaweld or Goldmund amp. The poor returns are much greater with a B&W and Rotel then with some High End gear out there. But people dont complain about that. In my opinion.
    Forgive me for putting in my 2 cents. But I think what he is referring to is only the business dynamics. A mass market company can churn out hundreds or thousands of speakers a year/month. In doing so, they can sell at 20 or 30 points of profit. But someone who is only building a few speakers a year must make more, say 50 or 60 points, on the few they do put out to make a living. It doesn't mean that the smaller company is not making as good or better of a product. They most likely have a lower overhead and advertise less if at all. So that lowers their costs and therefore increases their profit margin.

    But I could just be wrong.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Forgive me for putting in my 2 cents. But I think what he is referring to is only the business dynamics. A mass market company can churn out hundreds or thousands of speakers a year/month. In doing so, they can sell at 20 or 30 points of profit. But someone who is only building a few speakers a year must make more, say 50 or 60 points, on the few they do put out to make a living. It doesn't mean that the smaller company is not making as good or better of a product. They most likely have a lower overhead and advertise less if at all. So that lowers their costs and therefore increases their profit margin.

    But I could just be wrong.
    Well that makes sense, but i do not understand what it has to do with this thread. Care to explain that to me? Should i therefore buy only from the big companys so we can kill off the small ones?
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  24. #24
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Forgive me for putting in my 2 cents. But I think what he is referring to is only the business dynamics. A mass market company can churn out hundreds or thousands of speakers a year/month. In doing so, they can sell at 20 or 30 points of profit. But someone who is only building a few speakers a year must make more, say 50 or 60 points, on the few they do put out to make a living. It doesn't mean that the smaller company is not making as good or better of a product. They most likely have a lower overhead and advertise less if at all. So that lowers their costs and therefore increases their profit margin.

    But I could just be wrong.
    I think you nailed it...As I hinted at earlier, as a general rule of thumb, within an industry you can bet that smaller companies will have higher profit margins. This may not always hold true because of fierce competition and existing cost structures already optimized, but a smaller company almost always has a higher required internal return rate. Unless they like working for free.
    The exception would be larger companies having higher profit margins. Not many of those - the only one I can think of traditionally is Microsoft - maybe Visa/Mastercard/Amex, too.

    FYI, advertising shouldn't be considered an expense truly passed on to the consumer if it's done properly. You only make the decision to spend $1 on advertising if you believe it will result in more than $1 + your required internal rate of return. If you knew you'd only get $.95 back for every $1 you spent, you wouldn't bother. If your costs are elastic (most are in manufacturing industries) the consumer should benefit in the long run from increased sales. Consumers often blame advertising, brochures, etc as overhead cost passed on to the consumer, when it can be argued it's actually to the consumer's benefit.

  25. #25
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Well that makes sense, but i do not understand what it has to do with this thread. Care to explain that to me? Should i therefore buy only from the big companys so we can kill off the small ones?
    Oh no! Not at all. Larger margins do not make for a bad speaker or speaker company.
    I didn't mean to speak out of turn. I just thought that this was what Feanor was saying when he said higher margins. Feanor, was I close?
    Higher margins are not always bad. Sometimes it's needed for a smaller (or better) manufacturer to stay in business. It may just mean that they are not spending 20% of their profit on advertising.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

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