Who uses ONLY Receiver with no amp/preamp? Is good sound possible?

[royphil345]

I can honestly say that I agree with a little bit of what everyone has said on some level or another and I don't necessarily think that one party is right or the other is wrong, it's more a matter of preference and circumstantial in many respects.


Ok, let the battle resume....

No more battle... I'm done.

I elect you as official judge and being half right is good enough for me. I think that's the best I could expect since it's common knowledge I'm half crazy...

[kexodusc]

My room is 25'x 11'x 7'. I estimated the Bryston 3B-ST clips at about 60 watts (LED lights turn red) 'cause with my SST which I now use for my 100's at 75 watts of clean power has never clipped at these volumes. Introducing an equalizer into the chain I can now get it to clip at these volumes if I'm not careful with the settings. I generally listen around 92 DB range but sometimes crank it depending on the music. According to your figures its probably using somewhere close to 120 watts which I didn't think was correct.

I'm not familiar with your amp so I'll trust you know it better than I do.; Only thing I can add is a bit about the power usage. Music is literally demanding a large range of power every second, while your SPL meter might read 90 dB or higher, the actual power consumption is all over the map. Anywhere from below 1 watt to over 50. The peaks are near instantaneous usually (think loud cymbal crashes, etc). Even a cheapo Yammie receiver with it's 300 watt power supply, isn't going to struggle putting out well above it's "rated power" during these peaks. Is it going to have as much current and reserve power as your Bryston, hell no, not even close. But with a reasonably efficient speaker above 90 dB or something approaching 100 dB, you've compensated for this quite a bit. Not to say they won't sound better as the electronics improve, as I believe this is the case.

For the record, I run my Yamaha receiver as a pre-pro with 3 power amps attached. My room is over 22 X 20, I had the extra gear, I use it. I feel it sounds better. I'm not opposed to this.

What I am opposed to is a everyone rushing out and giving advice to add a power amp to a receiver with no pre-outs, or to buy a new amplifier when we first haven't even established that more power is going to be beneficial in this application. If Steve comes back and says he never listens above 90 dB, he's going to get an incremental performance increase at best for his money adding a new amp.

Using a sub doesn't eliminate upper bass freq. Mine is set at 80 crossover and I still got my ST to clip at my normal listening volumes with heavy bass peaks. It's possible though that I had my main's set to large, I don't recall for sure.

No, it doesn't eliminate them, though they aren't as demanding as the frequencies below 100 Hz, typically.

PS: My spec sheet for Bryston 3B-SST has 74 at clipping, which is probably a percentage (133 of 180) which I mistaken for 74 watts

.
That's cool. Bryston makes serious amps - I've never heard one that couldn't perform beyond it's cautious rating.

[kexodusc]

The most discriminating audiophiles I know wouldn't smack a rat in the a$$ with that 60 WPC Yamaha HT receiver.

They wouldn't be caught dead with CV's, either, but that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

You're rude, obviously lack real-world experience regarding this guy's question and you're wrong. I do hope you're not playing audiophile with a 60 WPC Yamaha HT receiver in your rack.... .

What's in my rack has nothing to do with the facts and opinion in this discussion so far. What, are you going to insult my boombox?

As for being rude, well, I can be, as required. Not my goal here though. I have enough experience to back up what I'm talking about with substance, facts, and reasoning and not just happy-feel-good rhetoric that can't be explained by anything other than blind faith. My answer to problems is not to throw money at them hoping it'll solve it. How long did people spend on this thread before recommending the amp upgrade? 30 seconds? Without even asking for all the details on his setup? Especially when it's someone else's. Look, I'm not attacking you personally, if my tone came across as doing such, I apologize.

LOL I''ve been around awhile. I know what similar receivers are capable of doing with Cerwin Vegas... Not much... There is more than efficiency to consider in what kind of load a loudspeaker presents to an amp

No doubt, hence the questions re: loudness and room size. I didn't ever say adding power wouldn't improve things at all. I've only question whether it was the most effective allocation of resources for generating sound improvements in this scenario. If Steve doesn't exceed 90 dB for music EVER, more power isn't going to do anything for him. Even a crappy 300 watt receiver is going to be able to handle the load for those speakers unless they have a ridiculously low impedance profile well below 4 ohms. These do claim to be compatible with 8 ohm units though, that's all I can go by. I'm not saying an amp won't make it sound a bit better, I am saying for the cost, it isn't likely to meet the expectations some responses are likely to have created.

You want a night and day difference? Run just about any pair of full sized floorstanders with the 60 WPC Yamaha receiver and then with a quality 200 WPC amp (or even a QUALITY 60 WPC amp). Try to play 'em loud... Night and day? YES!!!

I see you avoided the comment I made earlier? Why then are so many audiophiles spending soo much time investing in low watt SET amps that only deliver a mere fraction of the power we're talking about here? Power and sound quality are not directly proportional. Ever wonder why a 40 watt NAD will sound better than a 100 watt Denon?

This guy's issue is with the sound turning to mush at significantly lower volume levels than he thinks the CVs should be capable of. He's absolutely right. They are capable of more. A quality amplifier is the cure. Yep...

We haven't even established at what levels this is occuring at. We don't know how he has the speakers set up in his room. They could right beside walls, his room untreated. Forget seeing if we can help him properly place his speakers and get the most out of his system as is before dropping money. No, let's just encourage him to spend money on amplification and promise him tremendous gains. Ain't gonna happen! Amps make differences, not huge night and day differences. The speakers will be the limiting factor.

The specs on the CVs are likely exaggerated. The specs on the Yamaha are likely exaggerated.

A receiver, crappy as they are, will deliver it's rated power into two channels. As for the CV spec exaggeration, could be. That number is high enough to allow plenty of comfort room though.

CVs have been well known to require decent amplification for best results, possibly something about the load they present... This guy came here with a specific issue he did an excellent job of describing. An issue that just screams insufficiant amplification. Are you telling him it isn't really happening because theoretically it shouldn't be? Your textbook knowledge is quite impressive. But, using it to confuse this guy when the solution to his problem is very simple and contrary to what you're telling him???

CV's are well known for having mediocre sound quality at high levels, and terrible quality at lower levels. They're not made for hi-fidelity. Dumping hundred on power amplification isn't going to clean up a somewhat muddy sound. That's just how CV's sound.

Trying to make people look foolish because they just can't agree with you due to what they've seen in real-life experience??? I don't know...

Now you're on to me.

The CVs may lack some refinement, but I think you greatly underestimate what they're capable of. This poster's only complaint about his system was reduced performance at higher volumes. His system's weakness is actually what should be it's best attribute. CVs can do loud if nothing else... That's a well-known fact. Better amplification is the key here

.
Ever consider for a second that maybe, just maybe, adding power to this setup is only going to add loudness, and not do a thing for the muddy sound? Or is this impossible, in your experience?

The guy didn't ask what kind of speakers you would have bought. He basically asked if he was getting the most out of his speakers by driving them with the 60 WPC Yamaha receiver. The answer is definitely not.

We've established and agree his receiver isn't the greatest. Great, so everyone says, yeah more power is better. He runs out, drops $400 on a new integrated, and finds his speakers can play louder, a few minor subtleties have been improved, but for the most part the muddy sound remains. Except now he's out a wad of cash. Is everyone here going to refund him his money?

About the power meters on amps... I think they're often just too slow to show peak power output. I use mine as guage of average power output and estimate the peak power output to be significantly higher

.

Generally instantaneous readings, so peak power is triggering the highest readings.
In music, peak and average power are hard differentiate. When amps are tested, they use sign waves, so you get a true, constant power signal of say, 60 watts...But with a music signal, you're all over the map. The higher number is the one you need to be concerned with though, that's what'll cause damage or distortion. The power ratings on even the crappiest Kenwood receiver will tell what the receiver can do with a sign wave in unrealistic conditions. Even those will have some headroom above and beyond the rated power for musical peaks.

[westcott]

Ok, let the battle resume....

Now, if you really want me to stir the pot, I will tell you that even though you have a separate amp, if it only has one plug for the wall, it is only putting out a max of around 800 watts. No matter what the mfg says or how many "300 watt channels" you bought.

Why? Because most people have a 15 or maybe a 20 amp circuit that it is plugged into. VERY few exceptions unless your amp acutally has two heavy duty plugs and they are connected to two DEDICATED circuits. NOT just two plugs.

The following is an exerpt from Audioholics. I will provide a link to the whole article for those who want more details. But, as you will see, a good receiver is already hitting the limits of what you can pull from the wall under present UL and CSA approval.

References:

Household Line: 120V, 15A can deliver max continuous power of (120 x 15) = 1800 watts (assuming no derating as per UL)


Amplifier Efficiency:

Typical Linear (A/B) Amplifier is between 40-50%.

Rail switching amps such as Class G/H can be as high as 65%

Switching amps (Class D) can see up to 90% real world efficiency assuming a properly designed power supply is utilized.


Note: These estimates assume the amp is under full load and that the power supply transformer doesn't overload, operates in the linear VA curve, and maintains regulation.


Let's focus on linear amps for the moment, since these are currently the most popular type tested and purchased by home theater consumer folks.


Now take our 1800 watt max power from the wall and multiply it by our amp efficiency (let's choose 45%) and we get: 1800 x .45 = 810 watts . This is the max power a typical linear A/B amp can deliver on a continuous basis from a 120V, 15A household line - assuming, of course, the amplifier's power supply can consume the entire 1800 watts of power from the line without causing the power transformer to overheat or go into thermal meltdown and likely trip the breaker.


By now folks from the ACD camp are saying, - well let's use a 20A line instead! That only gets the designer 4 more amps - or 2.6A with a normal power amp! What they fail to realize is most UL compliant consumer electrical devices utilizing the IEC320 receptacle, limit the max current consumption to less than 15A to prevent arcing which can cause a fire, death or serious injury (not to mention voiding your liability insurance). Unless the amp has a specialized connector on the back, or two independent power cords, it is likely it will be limited to 15A continuous consumption for safety's sake. We shall consider those type of devices as an outlier (not typical) and continue on with the more typical consumer devices reviewed and purchased for our home theater systems.


As a side note, other limitations include the AC wall outlet and breaker in the fuse box as well as the potential for 14GA wire run to the AC socket - 12GA wire has to be used for a legitimate 20A breaker.


As we already established, our linear amp best case continuous power delivery is limited to around 810 watts.


What does this give us under the ACD test?


5 Channels Driven: 810 / 5 = 162 watts per channel

7 Channels Driven: 810 / 7 = 116 watts per channel


Note: This doesn't factor in any additional losses due to processing, and other active devices in a receiver.





Here is the link that reduces the power capabilities even further but I thought this would get everyone mad enough at me!!!! Now, I will say that separate amps can produce a cleaner sound and provide more available power to respond to large dynamic swings, but it usually robs Paul to pay Peter, to do so since rarely is the demand on all the channels being asked to drive being used at the same time.

All Chanels Driven Falacy

[royphil345]

We've established and agree his receiver isn't the greatest. Great, so everyone says, yeah more power is better. He runs out, drops $400 on a new integrated, and finds his speakers can play louder, a few minor subtleties have been improved, but for the most part the muddy sound remains. Except now he's out a wad of cash. Is everyone here going to refund him his money?

Your arguments are getting very weak. It's obvious you just want to be right and you'll wriggle around all day trying to prove it.

Unfortunately, You're ignoring the most basic fact here. THIS GUY IS HAPPY THE SOUND OF HIS CERWIN VEGAS. HE WANT'S BETTER PERFORMANCE AT HIGHER VOLUME!!! That's what this thread is about!!!

When he buys fancy "audiophile" speakers and they sound like crap powered by his weak receiver (and you know darn well they would) will you refund his money?

THAT RECEIVER SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO DRIVE ANY LOUDSPEAKER WITH AUTHORITY AT HIGHER VOLUME LEVELS!!!

THERE ARE FACTORS THAT MAKE CERTAIN SPEAKERS MORE DIFFICULT TO DRIVE BY CHEAP AMPS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE EFFICIENT. The room etc... has NOTHING to do with this.

This guy obviously wants good sound at higher volume levels. Changing speakers will not get him there. Changing out the Yamaha would be an absolutely necessary step towards that goal. Considering that he sounds pretty happy with the CVs besides the sound turning to mush at higher volume levels... More power is simply the most logical first upgrade.

Have you even heard the new CV lines? Calling them terrible and muddy-sounding is just ridiculous if you haven't... There's a difference between offering helpful advice or just regurgitating stuff you've heard and facts that can be effected by many factors you haven't taken into consideration.

You yourself said "Ever wonder why a 40 watt NAD will sound better than a 100 watt Denon?". That's EXACTLY what I'm saying here. The specs don't always tell the whole story. This guy could do with a better amplifier. Take a deep breath and admit it... LOL


Wriggle out of that...

[royphil345]

Now, if you really want me to stir the pot, I will tell you that even though you have a separate amp, if it only has one plug for the wall, it is only putting out a max of around 800 watts. No matter what the mfg says or how many "300 watt channels" you bought.

Why? Because most people have a 15 or maybe a 20 amp circuit that it is plugged into. VERY few exceptions unless your amp acutally has two heavy duty plugs and they are connected to two DEDICATED circuits. NOT just two plugs.

The following is an exerpt from Audioholics. I will provide a link to the whole article for those who want more details. But, as you will see, a good receiver is already hitting the limits of what you can pull from the wall under present UL and CSA approval.

References:

Household Line: 120V, 15A can deliver max continuous power of (120 x 15) = 1800 watts (assuming no derating as per UL)

Another case of using scientific facts without considering all the factors...

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors. The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce. The line current can charge the capacitors faster than they are drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

TAA DAA!!!

what that's got to do with this thread I don't know...

[westcott]

Another case of using scientific facts without considering all the factors...

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors. The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce. The line current can charge the capacitors faster than it is drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

TAA DAA!!!

what that's got to do with this thread I don't know...

I suggest you go back and read the ENTIRE article. Line choke prevents this and causes high frequency distortion, tricking the mind that the low frequencies are cleaner and tighter.

[kexodusc]

Your arguments are getting very weak. It's obvious you just want to be right and you'll wriggle around all day trying to prove it

On the contrary. You continue to avoid them, calling them weak without explaining why they are weak. For the 3rd time, I'd like you to explain why some of the best performing amplifiers ever designed are in fact extremely low power - lower than even this receiver.
C'mon...Yeah, I'm calling you out - that very fact flies in the face of you assertions about high power always leading to better sound.

There's 2 sides to this debate:
You: "More power will give you exactly what you want, always, because I say so"
and
Me: "More power might not be the best solution for your particular needs, depending on your volume preferences, room size, etc because of the following considerations..."

Again, I never once said power won't help here, I only question, in all fairness to Steve, whether it's the most effective upgrade path in this instance. In this case based on experience and some knowledge, I think there may be a better option (again, pending the loudness requirements of Steve).

Unfortunately, You're ignoring the most basic fact here. THIS GUY IS HAPPY THE SOUND OF HIS CERWIN VEGAS. HE WANT'S BETTER PERFORMANCE AT HIGHER VOLUME!!! That's what this thread is about!!!

Yes, and I see you failed to guarantee that more power won't just make the muddy sound louder, you didn't even accept that this is a great possibility. Again, my point all along has been to question which path leads to the most effective allocation of resources to achieve the desired sound. We still haven't established how loud he listens to his current speakers. For all we know, loud to him might be 80 dB.

I know damn thing or two about earlier model CV's...I was a long time proud owner (did you miss that) of a set of VS120's way back when, the same exact f'n brand!

I'm not totally ignorant to their sound. And I'm not BS-ing this, do a search on the forum here and you'll find more than a few threads where I discuss "my ol' CV's)...Here's the first one I found:

Newbie saying hello..

THAT RECEIVER SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO DRIVE ANY LOUDSPEAKER WITH AUTHORITY AT HIGHER VOLUME LEVELS!!!

It's not going to top 115 dB optimally, no, but what's the need of the listener? What is loud? How many times do I have to say this to you - you are using absolutes, and universal arguments to support your positing, I'm merely trying to demonstrate that there's far more to consider beyond the ol "receivers suck, get a big amp" arguement.

This guy obviously wants good sound at higher volume levels. Changing speakers will not get him there. Changing out the Yamaha would be an absolutely necessary step towards that goal. Considering that he sounds pretty happy with the CVs besides the sound turning to mush at higher volume levels... More power is simply the most logical first upgrade.

Wriggle out of that...

Well, in light of overwhelming superior arguements, I change my mind. I am wrong.

Have you even heard the new CV lines? Calling them terrible and muddy-sounding is just ridiculous if you haven't... There's a difference between offering helpful advice or just regurgitating stuff you've heard and facts that can be effected by many factors you haven't taken into consideration.

Not sure what new CV's have to do with the sound of 13 year old model? Wiggle out of that...

[royphil345]

You yourself said "Ever wonder why a 40 watt NAD will sound better than a 100 watt Denon?". That's EXACTLY what I'm saying here. The specs don't always tell the whole story. This guy could do with a better amplifier. Take a deep breath and admit it... LOL

You didn't reply to that one...

...and he wishes he had a 100 watt Denon over a 60 watt Yamaha...

[kexodusc]

You didn't reply to that one...

Not sure what your point was, elaborate, and I'll gladly reply...
If you're referring to superior fidelity from higher grade electronics, I agree , though I question,again, whether that is the best use of his money. I maintain that sound quality improvements from a speaker upgrade likely will outweigh the sound quality improvements from an amp upgrade.

If you're complaining about the accuracy of the specs - that's a whole other discussion.

[royphil345]

C'mon...Yeah, I'm calling you out - that very fact flies in the face of you assertions about high power always leading to better sound.

Yeah... You are calling me out for sure.

Problem is... This thread was never about higher power always leading to better sound. I never said that at all. That may be what you're trying to twist this argument into, but it's not happening.

This thread was about the poster's system where I can guarantee you his particular amp is a huge bottleneck in performance. I posted about the dramatic improvements he would indeed realize at higher volume levels through higher quality amplification. I didn't come right out and say it at the beginning before I needed to defend myself, but the fact is there is not much that 60 WPC Yamaha will ever drive with authority at higher volume levels. Your speaker upgrade would be wasted on it. If he likes it loud, it needs to go. SIMPLE FACT.

That's what this guy wanted to know. Was the receiver a bottleneck? How do you get CVs to sing?

[Resident Loser]

Another case of using scientific facts without considering all the factors...

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors. The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce. The line current can charge the capacitors faster than they are drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

TAA DAA!!!

what that's got to do with this thread I don't know...

...WTF does line frequency have to do with AC line current or bass response at or below 60Hz?

BTW, caps filter/store rectified DC which is what the PS changes the AC (regardless of line frequency) into...

BTW revisited and FWIW, the old Advent 300 only had 15Wpc and could kick the proverbial...

jimHJJ(...now for my impression of a ground loop...HHHMMMmmmmm...)

[royphil345]

I suggest you go back and read the ENTIRE article. Line choke prevents this and causes high frequency distortion, tricking the mind that the low frequencies are cleaner and tighter.

You ain't trickin' my mind. There is nothing to prevent an amp from using all the energy stored in the capacitors. They sometimes do and start to clip in fact. They are charged at 60HZ. They can be drained at a lower rate depending on the frequency of the sound being reproduced. They can supply more wattage than the line input for short periods or at lower frequencies. FACT.

[kexodusc]

This guy could do with a better amplifier. Take a deep breath and admit it... LOL

LOL...Okay, I promise to admit that a better amplifier will offer some improvement, if you promise to go back, read all my threads, and admit that I've already said that several times from the start!

My point all along hasn't been whether a better amp can make it sound better - can u understand this?
It's about whether it's the best path to achieving the desired sound? We can't know this until he answers a few more questions.

This thread was about the poster's system where I can guarantee you his particular amp is a huge bottleneck in performance. I posted about the dramatic improvements he would indeed realize at higher volume levels through higher quality amplification. I didn't come right out and say it at the beginning before I needed to defend myself, but the fact is there is not much that 60 WPC Yamaha will ever drive with authority at higher volume levels. Your speaker upgrade would be wasted on it. If he likes it loud, it needs to go. SIMPLE FACT.

You cannot say for certain that the 60 WPC Yamaha is a bottleneck because you cannot demonstrate whether it's being pushed to its limits or not. If we're talking in the 80 - 90 dB range, that receiver isn't working hard at all. Adding more power in this case is going to be a waste.
How much demand is he placing on it? Tell me, how many watts? How many dB's is he talking about when he says "loud"? Do you know? Can you quantify this?
If not, you cannot make your absolute statements, no matter how many times you keep repeating yourself.

[kexodusc]

jimHJJ(...now for my impression of a ground loop...HHHMMMmmmmm...)

ROFLMAO!!!!
You're a little off-key, that 60 Hz should be about B, you're giving us a D.

[markw]

I see watts sorta like horsepower. The more, the merrier and it's always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

But, as evidenced this Saturday, all the horsepower in the world won't do a thing if the wheels are on pack ice. All it will do is spin the wheels, but you still ain't gettin' nowhere until you get rid of the ice.

IOW, methinks there are other problems he needs to address first. Then, perhaps, additional power might be better used. Also, his listening levels are still an open issue. IE, how loud is loud.

[GMichael]

ROFLMAO!!!!
You're a little off-key, that 60 Hz should be about B, you're giving us a D.

You're deaf. That was a G sharp if I've ever heard one.

[royphil345]

IOW, methinks there are other problems he needs to address first. Then, perhaps, additional power might be better used. Also, his listening levels are still an open issue. IE, how loud is loud.

You guys (or guy I'm starting to suspect) are trying to make what's obvious out to be a huge mystery...

How loud will a Yamaha receiver rated at 60 WPC play through floorstanding Cerwin Vegas or anything else for that matter without mushing up? Not loud enough to impress... not that loud at all really (and that's coming from an old guy) and let's face it, that's what it's about with CVs. That's just the way it is and anyone with any experience with similar gear knows it. All this stuff about how loud etc... It's just not the big mystery you're making it out to be. Everybody knows that particular receiver just isn't capable of providing that solid, rock concert experience CVs are built to deliver and CV owners expect to hear.

[Resident Loser]

You're deaf. That was a G sharp if I've ever heard one.

...offtimes tell folks that they are playing or singing in the key of "L"...

Blimey mate, sure sounds like 'ell to me...

jimHJJ(...rimshot please...)

[markw]

How loud will a Yamaha receiver rated at 60 WPC play through floorstanding Cerwin Vegas or anything else for that matter without mushing up?

When the speaker has a sensitivity rating of 97 db, it doesn't really take a heckuva lot of watts to get some fairly painful SPL out of them.

1 watt = 97 db
2 = 100
4 = 103
8 = 106
16 = 109
32 = 113
64 = 116

Again, how loud is loud for this guy? http://www.renewwisconsin.org/windfarm/decibel.html

Remember, doubling the power only yields a barely audible 3 decibel increase. To realize an apparent doubling of perceived loudness will require 10 times the power. He may be better served with PA stuff. Heck, it won't sound much worse.

[royphil345]

Yeah... same stuff again... More numbers to try and disprove what is...

But then you'll agree that a 40 WPC NAD can outperform a 100 WPC Denon... Running in circles...

Bottom line is anyone who knows the gear knows this receiver will simply not make those CVs sing. Like I said, It's just no big mystery...

[Resident Loser]

You guys (or guy I'm starting to suspect) are trying to make what's obvious out to be a huge mystery...

How loud will a Yamaha receiver rated at 60 WPC play through floorstanding Cerwin Vegas or anything else for that matter without mushing up? Not loud enough to impress... not that loud at all really (and that's coming from an old guy) and let's face it, that's what it's about with CVs. That's just the way it is and anyone with any experience with similar gear knows it. All this stuff about how loud etc... It's just not the big mystery you're making it out to be. Everybody knows that particular receiver just isn't capable of providing that rock concert experience CVs are built to deliver and CV owners expect to hear.

...have you ever actually made any correlation between power output and volume level? Have you ever seen how much power is required for a given SPL? Ever looked at an analog output meter or LED display while taking measurements with an SPL meter?

If not you will probably be quite surprised...I have relatively inefficient speakers and normal cruising level around 85dB (midway between very loud and extremely loud in OSHA-speak) is done on <5 Watts...As a general rule of thumb twice as loud would bring that up to 95dB (like being in a subway) an increase of only(?) 10dB but requiring ten times the power or roughly 50 Watts...

Now with more efficient speakers the dBs will go up given the same power levels...so after you have your ears examined you might want to try your head...

jimHJJ(...simple really...)

[royphil345]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha just might be able to kick those CVs because the square root of pi blah blah blah....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined??? That's all you have left ??? ...and attacking me with multiple IDs...

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. Spoiled child who throws the board when losing the game. Grow up. You were wrong on this one and resorted to this trash before giving it up. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

[GMichael]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha will kick those CVs....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined???

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. You're wrong. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

Argue all you like. But please save the fighting for the school yard.

No one has said that the Yamaha will kick those CV's.

Try not to melt down on us.

[kexodusc]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha just might be able to kick those CVs because the square root of pi blah blah blah....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined??? That's all you have left ??? ...and attacking me with multiple IDs...

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. Spoiled child who throws the board when losing the game. Grow up. You were wrong on this one and resorted to this trash before giving it up. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

You've discovered my secret of using multiple identities to gang up on people with opposing views...Oh well....4-1, I win!!!

(Please don't beat me up)