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  1. #26
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    My front speakers provide me with the most realistic sound within my system. I dont expect my rears to do what I expect of the mains and vice versa. When I listen to music I listen in 2 channel (cd or dvd) because simply put thats what sounds the purest. Whether it be Chris Botti or Joe Bonamassa hearing music in 360 seems artifical and throws me off. I cant enjoy the music that way.

  2. #27
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&Waudio View Post
    My front speakers provide me with the most realistic sound within my system. I dont expect my rears to do what I expect of the mains and vice versa. When I listen to music I listen in 2 channel (cd or dvd) because simply put thats what sounds the purest. Whether it be Chris Botti or Joe Bonamassa hearing music in 360 seems artifical and throws me off. I cant enjoy the music that way.
    What if the sound was actually recorded in surround, and the two channel was just a fold down of the 5.1 mix. Would it be the purest at that point?

    How can one say that what was recorded in 5.1 sounds "artificial" when played back in 5.1?
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  3. #28
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    STT,

    please stop being logical. ;^)
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  4. #29
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifitommy View Post
    STT,

    please stop being logical. ;^)
    oooookaaaay(puts his head down and kicks the dirt)
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  5. #30
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    "What if the sound was actually recorded in surround, and the two channel was just a fold down of the 5.1 mix. Would it be the purest at that point?"

    Good point. Still the extra channels throw me off when Im listening. Not sure if I can explain this well but when I listen to music I see the sounds. Most concert DVD's have noise like audience chatter or applause that clutters up the musical experience so I tend to stay away from them sans a few favotites.

  6. #31
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&Waudio View Post
    "What if the sound was actually recorded in surround, and the two channel was just a fold down of the 5.1 mix. Would it be the purest at that point?"

    Good point. Still the extra channels throw me off when Im listening. Not sure if I can explain this well but when I listen to music I see the sounds. Most concert DVD's have noise like audience chatter or applause that clutters up the musical experience so I tend to stay away from them sans a few favotites.
    So are you saying you don't like the sound of a live event as portrayed by the recording? Concerts need people or its not a concert, but a performance.
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  7. #32
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    After running a couple multi-channel setups I still prefer stereo.

  8. #33
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    "So are you saying you don't like the sound of a live event as portrayed by the recording? Concerts need people or its not a concert, but a performance."

    I like live concerts if Im there. If the people in the audience on DVD's would shut up we dont have a problem. Nothing is absolute. I do own some concert DVD's and I dont generally buy live cd's either. It distracts me. Im quirky...what can I tell ya.

  9. #34
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&Waudio View Post
    "So are you saying you don't like the sound of a live event as portrayed by the recording? Concerts need people or its not a concert, but a performance."

    I like live concerts if Im there. If the people in the audience on DVD's would shut up we dont have a problem. Nothing is absolute. I do own some concert DVD's and I dont generally buy live cd's either. It distracts me. Im quirky...what can I tell ya.
    If the crowd shuts up, then you lose the energy of the performance and the concert itself, wouldn't you agree? There is a reason we actually do live recordings.
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  10. #35
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    If the crowd shuts up, then you lose the energy of the performance and the concert itself, wouldn't you agree?
    This is another preference issue where differences exist. I'll trade "energy" for performance quality any day. I rarely play the one concert video and the few live music albums I own. They are best appreciated by visually oriented folks where the sound quality is largely immaterial.

    It is a shame, however, that MC recordings comprise the 1% world in the music industry.

    rw

  11. #36
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    i have to agree with STT here. live performances many times crackle with the energy of the crowd and by that i mean the excitement that easily conveys in that situation.

    of course we dont want to hear the unsolicited comments and conversations spilled by inconsiderate concert attendees.

    still and all, a few words discerned during the listening to a live recording are not spoilingly intrusive.

    one good example of that excitement is evident with the recording: 'on the night' by dire straits. played back through a system with ambience recovery, it can raise the hairs on your neck.
    ...regards...tr

  12. #37
    Stereo value > car value texlle's Avatar
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    I suppose you must also consider which experience is more preferable to you....the live concert or the private performance. This may sound corny, but I like the exclusivity factor.... being able to hold a private performance just for me, on my call. Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of fun and gain great enjoyment from concerts, if not more than most fun, social events.
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  13. #38
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    They are best appreciated by visually oriented folks where the sound quality is largely immaterial.
    Oh really? For a person that has had such limited exposure to concert videos in general, and zero exposure on Bluray, this is a profoundly uneducated statement. On the more than 300 concert video titles I own on the Bluray format, equal attention was paid on both the audio and visuals. Watch Michael Jackson's this is it on Bluray, and tell me that was all about the visuals. Or Chris Botti in Boston, and Beethoven Symphonies 4 thorugh 9 by the Weiner Phillharmoniker. I could name a lot more.


    It is a shame, however, that MC recordings comprise the 1% world in the music industry.

    rw
    Oh well, gotta start somewhere. There was a point when CD only represented 1% of the music media sold. There was a point when DVD and Bluray only represented 1% of home video sales.
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  14. #39
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Oh really? For a person that has had such limited exposure to concert videos in general, and zero exposure on Bluray, this is a profoundly uneducated statement.
    Apparently, the word "preference" eludes you. A concert video can be no better than a live concert - to which I've been quite a few. Capturing it on video doesn't improve the limitations. The Madonna concert is on BR.

    Edit: According to the RIAA, unit sales of music video for 2010 accounted for 1.5% of the total. Two thirds of that was digital downloads which rules out Blu Ray. I'm definitely NOT in the minority with my preference. Sheesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    There was a point when CD only represented 1% of the music media sold.
    That is true and lasted for less than a year. In the decade between 1994-2004, it became the dominant media with about a two-third's share. SACD multi-channel was also introduced a decade ago. Notice any difference in the adoption rate?

    Music sales

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 11-02-2011 at 12:30 PM.

  15. #40
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    [QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible;371464 Watch Michael Jackson's this is it on Bluray, and tell me that was all about the visuals.[/QUOTE]

    I don't own many concert DVDs or Blus but have many VHS tapes of PBS shows like In The Spotlight so there is no sound quality to speak of. I do have Robert Plant and the New Sensation Spotlight DVD and it is done pretty good.

    For the most part, I do not want my stereo or sound system to reproduce the sound of most concerts I have been too. I am sure that the DVDs or Blus are not just direct to disc recordings, but altered and enhanced and filtered.

    If you have ever been to a Buddy Guy concert, you would agree. He plays so loud that most venue systems just go into distortion mode. I would never want to reproduce that kind of live event.

    All that said, I have to agree with one thing TT said and it is the power and sound of the MJ This is it. I only have it on a crappy pirated torrent download and the SQ is still killer. I may just buy a real one someday as the second half of that show is just frickin amazing. Oh, and the most awesomely gorgeous Orianthi is the real star of the show.


  16. #41
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    This is another preference issue where differences exist. I'll trade "energy" for performance quality any day.
    You're assuming that the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Many of the best classical performances, for example, were recorded in a live concert setting. Michael Tilson Thomas of the San Francisco Symphony, who I assume knows something about performance quality and energy level, chose to record their Mahler series in live concerts specifically because he felt the orchestra plays best in front of a live audience. It actually would have been easier to gather the orchestra in a studio and do a closed performance. A studio recording could be done in single session while allowing for retakes/restarts and eliminating extraneous audience noise (coughing, talking, sneezing, etc.). Yet, MTT and the SF Symphony felt that live recording was the way to go, despite the greater risks and logistical complications.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I rarely play the one concert video and the few live music albums I own. They are best appreciated by visually oriented folks where the sound quality is largely immaterial.
    No, they're just not appreciated by you. I can most definitely appreciate the audio quality of a well-done concert video. Examples abound, but if you're not interested in seeking them out and instead presuming to know what's "immaterial" to others, then that's on you.
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  17. #42
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    You're assuming that the two concepts are mutually exclusive...Many of the best classical performances, for example, were recorded in a live concert setting.]
    Actually, I'm applying experiential data across a forty year span of time. You can certainly cite any number of individual exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    No, they're just not appreciated by you. I can most definitely appreciate the audio quality of a well-done concert video.
    It's not that video can't have good sound. Why bother and limit your choices? I'm with the 98.5% of the music market who doesn't care about video.

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    Last edited by E-Stat; 11-02-2011 at 05:55 PM.

  18. #43
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    I don't own many concert DVDs or Blus but have many VHS tapes of PBS shows like In The Spotlight so there is no sound quality to speak of. I do have Robert Plant and the New Sensation Spotlight DVD and it is done pretty good.
    Anything done by PBS for broadcast will have the limitations of the broadcast standard to contend with. Remember, they are shooting for a television speaker, not a mid to high end hometheater.

    For the most part, I do not want my stereo or sound system to reproduce the sound of most concerts I have been too. I am sure that the DVDs or Blus are not just direct to disc recordings, but altered and enhanced and filtered.
    For the most part, they are not altered or enhanced, just mixed live, balanced and mastered in the studio.

    If you have ever been to a Buddy Guy concert, you would agree. He plays so loud that most venue systems just go into distortion mode. I would never want to reproduce that kind of live event.
    What you hear coming from the PA is very different than what you hear direct from the mixing board. We don't use the FOH feed, or record what comes from the PA speakers. We send the mix to the recording truck or in house recording facility where it is balanced and fed to the disc drive or digital recorder.

    All that said, I have to agree with one thing TT said and it is the power and sound of the MJ This is it. I only have it on a crappy pirated torrent download and the SQ is still killer. I may just buy a real one someday as the second half of that show is just frickin amazing. Oh, and the most awesomely gorgeous Orianthi is the real star of the show.

    I have some Bluray concert disc that equal and exceed the quality of This is it.
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  19. #44
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Apparently, the word "preference" eludes you. A concert video can be no better than a live concert - to which I've been quite a few. Capturing it on video doesn't improve the limitations. The Madonna concert is on BR.
    Actually you are wrong here. Avery Fisher hall is one of the worst sounding venues I have ever recorded in. However, the three recordings I have done there sound very, very good. Why, because I understood how to capture the full sound of the orchestra, but severely controls how much of the hall ambiance that is included in the mix. When you know how to think out of the box, you avoid making such statements like the recording can be no better than the live experience.

    Edit: According to the RIAA, unit sales of music video for 2010 accounted for 1.5% of the total. Two thirds of that was digital downloads which rules out Blu Ray. I'm definitely NOT in the minority with my preference. Sheesh.

    RIAA Data
    Excuse me, but this makes absolutely no reference to Bluray at all. DVD video is not Bluray video. Secondly this speaks of shipments, not actual sales figures like NDP reports. Thirdly, no reporting agency I know of lumps DVD and Bluray sales into one category, they are usually split into two categories.


    That is true and lasted for less than a year. In the decade between 1994-2004, it became the dominant media with about a two-third's share. SACD multi-channel was also introduced a decade ago. Notice any difference in the adoption rate?

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    Ralph, the CD was introduced 1982, so it took twelve years to become the dominate format. It was heavily marketed by the record companies, and neither SACD nor DVD-A was. It was much easier to integrate the CD player into an existing two channel system because EVERYTHING was stereo at that time. SACD and DVD-A required a complicated connection to a pre-amp(six interconnects) additional speakers and amplification. It was marketed to a crowd of folks that had no idea how to use it, and didn't even understand it(multichannel music is for video folks, how stupid is that?).

    So you are going to compare the sales and adoption rate of a format released a decade ago, to one that has been around since 1982. Wow..........a monkey can figure out the format in existence for the longest time would have a far higher adoption rate than one that has been around a very short time. No stretch there.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Apparently, the word "preference" eludes you. A concert video can be no better than a live concert - to which I've been quite a few. Capturing it on video doesn't improve the limitations. The Madonna concert is on BR.

    Edit: According to the RIAA, unit sales of music video for 2010 accounted for 1.5% of the total. Two thirds of that was digital downloads which rules out Blu Ray. I'm definitely NOT in the minority with my preference. Sheesh.

    RIAA Data


    That is true and lasted for less than a year. In the decade between 1994-2004, it became the dominant media with about a two-third's share. SACD multi-channel was also introduced a decade ago. Notice any difference in the adoption rate?

    Music sales

    rw
    Terrance likes to hang onto failed technologies I have noticed, at least those he has invested in.

  21. #46
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Excuse me, but this makes absolutely no reference to Bluray at all. DVD video is not Bluray video.
    Congratulations on your perspicacity!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Thirdly, no reporting agency I know of lumps DVD and Bluray sales into one category, they are usually split into two categories.
    Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the RIAA. You'll notice DVD sales are separated from the rest at 8.7 million vs all music video at 9.1 million.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    So you are going to compare the sales and adoption rate of a format released a decade ago, to one that has been around since 1982.
    I compare ten year periods of each, but incorrectly titled the sales from 1994 -2004, when it should have been 1984-1994. Look at the data! Move the CD sales back two years and CD reached a market share of just over fifty percent. Don't you get it?

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 11-02-2011 at 09:14 PM.

  22. #47
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    You're assuming that the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Many of the best classical performances, for example, were recorded in a live concert setting. Michael Tilson Thomas of the San Francisco Symphony, who I assume knows something about performance quality and energy level, chose to record their Mahler series in live concerts specifically because he felt the orchestra plays best in front of a live audience. It actually would have been easier to gather the orchestra in a studio and do a closed performance. A studio recording could be done in single session while allowing for retakes/restarts and eliminating extraneous audience noise (coughing, talking, sneezing, etc.). Yet, MTT and the SF Symphony felt that live recording was the way to go, despite the greater risks and logistical complications.
    ...
    In case of classical music, at least, energy, i.e. the appropriate type & level of energy, is an aspect of performance and in no way separate. (At partial exception should be made for opera where the acting and directing can be considered separately to some extend.)

    It's true that many fine classical performance are recored before a "live" audience. When I choose a recording, this isn't a consideration in itsefl, one way or the other. The only Blu-ray performance video I have, (apart from a couple of operas), is Michael Tilson Thomas with the San Franciso Orchestre recorded in the Albert Hall, London, Shostakovich' 10th Symphony: it's excellent and as a matter of fact, there is very little audience noise.

  23. #48
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post
    Terrance likes to hang onto failed technologies I have noticed, at least those he has invested in.
    I wouldn't say failed. Blu Ray is most certainly a success with movies, but is clearly a niche player when it comes to music.

    rw

  24. #49
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    It's true that many fine classical performance are recored before a "live" audience. When I choose a recording, this isn't a consideration in itsefl, one way or the other.
    Live classical performances are inherently different from most pop/rock ones. The cited example of Michael Jackson is a great illustration. Fans want to see the show. The choreography. The effects. Perhaps such exists, but I've never seen a symphony performance where the players or conductor dance onstage with backup performers, use elaborate props or pyrotechnics!

    My preference - a concept that continues to elude our resident expert - is that I don't care about the visuals. Purchasing video music also limits where I can play it. Which may be one of the reasons why music video is the 1.5% market - according to the RIAA.

    rw

  25. #50
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Live classical performances are inherently different from most pop/rock ones. The cited example of Michael Jackson is a great illustration. Fans want to see the show. The choreography. The effects. Perhaps such exists, but I've never seen a symphony performance where the players or conductor dance onstage with backup performers, use elaborate props or pyrotechnics!

    My preference - a concept that continues to elude our resident expert - is that I don't care about the visuals. Purchasing video music also limits where I can play it. Which may be one of the reasons why music video is the 1.5% market - according to the RIAA.

    rw
    I tend to agree.

    Of course, opera is entirely another matter. Some purists insist that music is paramount but for me, opera must have both great sound and visuals.

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