What is really killing High-End Audio?

[hermanv]

We have been taught to be bargain hunters. Many of us know that buying the cheap product is actually false economy, the quality product will significantly outlast the cheap one and provide greater enjoyment.

Unfortunately the nature of high volume production means that the mediocre HiFi keeps getting cheaper while the high end product cost remains pretty much constant in old dollars. So the actual cost goes up and the disparity between mass market and high end grows bigger.

I am as guilty of this as anyone, and given today's economy will probably continue to act against my own long term best interest. Thank god for the used audiophile market, without that I simply couldn't own the system I have.

Even high end stores provide no opportunity to switch back and forth between high end and mass market. A long time friend of mine was convinced I was nuts. His acoustic memory was too short to hear a difference between my system and his when he got home. Finally we prepared an A-B switch so we could hear the same source switched instantly between two systems. His comment on the sound; "I get it! All the dirt is gone!".

If you think about how most people listen to their music today it becomes a little clearer. Compared to computer speakers or portable Flash players with earbuds, even mass market gear sounds pretty good.

Originally Posted by hermanv

We have been taught to be bargain hunters. Many of us know that buying the cheap product is actually false economy, the quality product will significantly outlast the cheap one and provide greater enjoyment.

Unfortunately the nature of high volume production means that the mediocre HiFi keeps getting cheaper while the high end product cost remains pretty much constant in old dollars. So the actual cost goes up and the disparity between mass market and high end grows bigger.
I am as guilty of this as anyone, and given today's economy will probably continue to act against my own long term best interest. Thank god for the used audiophile market, without that I simply couldn't own the system I have.

Even high end stores provide no opportunity to switch back and forth between high end and mass market. A long time friend of mine was convinced I was nuts. His acoustic memory was too short to hear a difference between my system and his when he got home. Finally we prepared an A-B switch so we could hear the same source switched instantly between two systems. His comment on the sound; "I get it! All the dirt is gone!".

If you think about how most people listen to their music today it becomes a little clearer. Compared to computer speakers or portable Flash players with earbuds, even mass market gear sounds pretty good.

That only applies to companies like Mark Levinson that produce only ultra-expensive gear... other Brands that produce full ranges of products such as Revel, B&W, Musical Fidelity and to an extent Krell are able to benefit from mass production of their lower models and trickling down high-end tech into their cheaper lines....

If you judge high-end by the price of ML and other ultra-exclusive brands, then the prices will never go down as these brands only cater to the rich....

[hermanv]

When first class capacitors cost $50 each and wire is $5 foot, RCA jacks are $30 each high volume production doesn't help much.

Having built electronics gear I believe that there is far less mark-up than you assume. While it is true that M-L caters to the rich, their prices reflect the costs more closely than you might think. As I've said previously, if anyone could build an amp of equal quality for 1/2 the money you bet they would.

There just isn't enough volume for the high volume production savings to apply. It is true that you can get close for less money, but that last step in ultimate quality is a big one financially. Statement products require statement components and those will always be high priced. By the way Harmon Specialty Group (owns Levinson) builds a number of brands, I'm quite sure any available economies of scale are utilized.

When my friend and I built our 3 way speakers we found that silver foil inductors had a small sonic edge over copper foil inductors, the improvement was quite disproportionate to the price difference, but if you want that last tiny increment, you need to pay for it.

Originally Posted by hermanv

When first class capacitors cost $50 each and wire is $5 foot, RCA jacks are $30 each high volume production doesn't help much.

Having built electronics gear I believe that there is far less mark-up than you assume. While it is true that M-L caters to the rich, their prices reflect the costs more closely than you might think. As I've said previously, if anyone could build an amp of equal quality for 1/2 the money you bet they would.

There just isn't enough volume for the high volume production savings to apply. It is true that you can get close for less money, but that last step in ultimate quality is a big one financially. Statement products require statement components and those will always be high priced. By the way Harmon Specialty Group (owns Levinson) builds a number of brands, I'm quite sure any available economies of scale are utilized.

When my friend and I built our 3 way speakers we found that silver foil inductors had a small sonic edge over copper foil inductors, the improvement was quite disproportionate to the price difference, but if you want that last tiny increment, you need to pay for it.

Sure I have no problem agreeing that to get that last tiny increment you pay through the roof... but the question I ask is whether high-end only starts when you get that last increment? Maybe for you, but not for many of us... If someone produces an amp that sounds 90% as good as a Mark Levinson piece, but for half the price, would you still call it "mediocre HiFi" ?

The absolute top may stay out of reach for an indefinite time, but many manufacturers are getting suprisingly close.... and I would never regard their efforts as mediocre....

[StevenSurprenant]

Originally Posted by hermanv

When first class capacitors cost $50 each and wire is $5 foot, RCA jacks are $30 each high volume production doesn't help much.

There just isn't enough volume for the high volume production savings to apply. It is true that you can get close for less money, but that last step in ultimate quality is a big one financially. Statement products require statement components and those will always be high priced. By the way Harmon Specialty Group (owns Levinson) builds a number of brands, I'm quite sure any available economies of scale are utilized.

When my friend and I built our 3 way speakers we found that silver foil inductors had a small sonic edge over copper foil inductors, the improvement was quite disproportionate to the price difference, but if you want that last tiny increment, you need to pay for it.

I can attest to that...

When I built my speakers I bought Newform R645 tweeters (which retailed for $1300), Seas woofers (which retailed for $700). That's $2000 total, but I could have bought the completed Newform R645 for $2500. That's only $500 difference. Of course I am using different woofers than their model, but theirs weren't probably much different in price.

Then I spent over $600 for caps for the tweeters and then a couple of foil inductors for about $70. This would have put the price of the speakers over what the production model would have cost. Their tweeter caps probably cost them about $20 max. But I had to have the best I could afford. By the way, like you I choose silver (with oil).

The only thing that made this feasible was that I was able to buy both the tweeters and the woofers (new) from a gentleman that had bought them to build his own and never got around to building them. They cost me only $550. I feel like one lucky man because of this and if I could have met that person, in person, I would give him a big hug because I love these speakers!

Then there was the cost of building the boxes and eventually I will have to buy crossover parts for the woofer section.

Just in case you were wondering, I am by-amping them through an electronic crossover. That's why I don't need a passive crossover on the woofers yet.

......

I just came back from Newform's web site and the price of these speakers have increased to $3,568.

Anyhow, they are still worth every penny of that.

[hermanv]

Originally Posted by Ajani

Sure I have no problem agreeing that to get that last tiny increment you pay through the roof... but the question I ask is whether high-end only starts when you get that last increment? Maybe for you, but not for many of us... If someone produces an amp that sounds 90% as good as a Mark Levinson piece, but for half the price, would you still call it "mediocre HiFi" ?

The absolute top may stay out of reach for an indefinite time, but many manufacturers are getting suprisingly close.... and I would never regard their efforts as mediocre....

There is no relationship between cost and the desire for good sound. I have no idea at what price point hi end starts, the way the original thread question was posed, sort of implied a higher than normal cost to get high end.

I do feel that for the most part, you get what you pay for, but if I were suddenly in a financial position where I couldn't afford expensive gear, I would still tweak what ever I could afford to get the most bang for the buck. I would still consider myself an audiophile and I would still listen to music in a way my neighbor describes as active listening. i.e most certainly not as background music to some other pursuit.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Hi-End certainly isnt dead... there are hundreds of companies making products. now performance carburators are dead. How many aftermarket carbs could you buy in 85? Know how many you can buy now? 2. Edelbrock & Holley. and you won't find them at any autopart store...mailorder only.

But seriously, people on this site (and others) are not the average American. You either had good stereo before, or know enough to go look for it. The vast majority of people do not.

Example: Rolling Stone, the most popular pop music magazine (at least thats what they say) in America. I bought a copy a few months ago. It had 16 car ads (talking-up premium audio systems from Bose and Mark Lebinson), 3 ads for Monster cable, ipods, and few guitar ads. There were NO stereo or loudspeaker ads of any kind. Not even Bose. I have never seen a TV ad for a loudspeaker (I thought I did once but it was for memorex tape). What does this tell Joe Consumer? 'If you want a stereo, it comes free with your car'.

Then factor in stores: Anytown USA does not have a boutique dealer. I live off Ft.Drum NY (15,000 GIs with disposable income... all in the proper age range for pop music + the 30,000 civilians in town) and we have 3 car subwoofer installers, but no home-stereo stores (1 installer does sell denon HTiBs, but not denon seperates or other speakers). We also have Wal*Mart and Best Buy. Wal*Mart (obviously) gets the dregs of humanity..... ($50 for a Durabrand 5.1!!), and BB does slightly better with low-end Klipsch and JBL. But an uninformed consumer has no idea that "better" exists at all.

A highschool kid with a tabletop boombox wants to upgrade, his options are A: a boombox with "1500watts*!!!" for $399 or a pair of Klipsch Synergies and a cheap SONY receiver. Since the cheap sony has no LED graphics (and doesn't boast 1500watts) or blinky lights and the Klipsch doesn't have the boombox's '4 powered subwoofers!' that are really just 5" drivers, the uninformed teen is 99% more likely to get a boombox. Unless you live in a major city you are unlikely to ever see a store carrying Mid-Fi or Hi-Fi products.

Then there is modern music. I won't suggest "musical content" is any worse (that is subjective in every respect), but production quality has suffered greatly. And its not MP3s or iPods that make new music ****ty. its CAR CD PLAYERS. As soon as CD players went into affordable domestic cars record companies had to compress everything to be heard at a constant volume above road noise.

Example: Take a 1st generation CD of Kansas - Kansas and a newer "remaster" (anytime after 1994). The remaster is loud, compressed and has no quiet parts, the older CD which would be played in homes has amazing dynamic range because it didn't have to compete with road noise....just the dishwasher

Add in ProTools (not to dogpile.. thats the only actual product of this type I know by name) which studios use make everything even more-same (for cars and now ibuds 15 years later). Play Dethklok - The Dethalbum (2007, a speed-metal album that sold incredibly well) on a home system and it sounds bad. The drum beats all sound exactly the same. I know that an actual drummer made the music, but the studios tinkered to make every note as same as possible, like a MIDI drum file set to repeat. Play this same CD in a car with a generic car subwoofer or the aformentioned '1500watt' boombox and the synthetic drum sounds more impressive. an impressive steady thump-thump-thump-thump-thump (Listen to the track Awaken...11 kickdrums/second! ). This is what sounds good on the system teens buy in Anytown USA. A "live" album would sound more like real instruments, but wouldn't be as impressive on anything less than a Mid-Fi stereo.

And speaking of music-content quality: I have noticed GUITAR HERO and ROCKBAND videogames seem to be introducing younger people to 70s & 80s rock. I really think this help recorded music as gamers transition to real musical instruments and want their purchased CDs to sound more like the real instruments they are buying. And the local musical instrument seller (Dr. Guitar) has said sales are on the largest upswing he has seen since opening the store...... these videogames honestly drive sales of real instruments (generally low priced Fenders & Hammer basses). More musicians can only be a good thing for music. (The town now has an almost semi-regular posting for garage band hows at bars..... I haven't seen those regularly since the late 90s).

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Originally Posted by Ajani

Maybe for you, but not for many of us... If someone produces an amp that sounds 90% as good as a Mark Levinson piece, but for half the price, would you still call it "mediocre HiFi" ?

The absolute top may stay out of reach for an indefinite time, but many manufacturers are getting suprisingly close.... and I would never regard their efforts as mediocre....

+1. This is also highly relevent to domestic automobiles (when even I, a jaded Germanphile can not ignore) which have undergone a HUGE step in improvement in the last 10 years.

a 1995 Cadillac was a joke of a car but a 2008 CTS is only a quickstep behind a BMW-5 or Mercedes-E for $10-20,000 less (depending on options like sat nav or AWD....AWD in a caddy!)

or possible even more so in a Corvette/Ferrari comparison. A 1988 'vette vs. a Testerosa? Ha! But a new Z6 will go-round the racetrack just as fast (or faster with a very experienced driver) as a F430 for a fraction of the price. Sure the dashboard still smells of ArmourAll and the leather seat dye will stain your new pants..... but a $60k Corvette offering the performance the the $200k prancing pony! Unbelievable! (The Ferrari will still get you laid more...... TV tells me so!)

[Mr Peabody]

R&R Ninja, I lived in a small town for several years of my life and you paint it pretty well. In the 80's we actually did have a couple stores that sold decent gear,not high end. I worked at one, we sold Kenwood, HK, Infinity for a few. A store that soon went out of business after a couple years sold Denon, Klipsch, Mission, Carver. The store I worked for went out of business in the early 90's and I don't think anyone sells home gear of any relevance but there are a couple car installers, as you say. I really wonder why no one has tried to sell any home gear in that town, especially with the HT boom. My cousin still lives there and he was able to get a big screen and a JVC receiver. When I asked where he got it, he just said from a furniture store. I'd like to go into a market like that and open a small outlet in my home. Carry some affordable 2 channel gear. Of course, today's economy isn't the time to do that type of experiment. Maybe that will be something to think about when I retire.

Rock&Roll Ninja & Mr Peabody made some interesting points... While I think High End Audio has become more of a niche market, I don't think it has to be... If more focus was put on attracting younger generations and making the best use of the technology and market trends of today, then good audio could regain mainstream status... Things I think could revitalize the industry:

1) Advertise!!!!!! Why do so many people think Bose is the end-all-be-all of audio? Cuz Bose has the good sense to advertise!!! We need to stop hating on Bose and just follow their marketing strategy....

2) Put more focus on today's popular trends, namely ipods and Computer Audio!!! Some High End Brands such as Musical Fidelity and PS Audio sell USB DACS in either standalone DACS or even their Integrated Amps (Musical Fidelity A1008 and A5.5)... Other Brands, most notably Krell are making ipod docks.... Krell has created a full system centred on using an ipod as the source (Krell Kid ipod Dock + Papa Dock 150 Watt Amplifier)... I know this is blasphemy to many Audiphiles, but there really needs to be less emphasis on Vinyl (and Feanor will hate this) and even on SACD... these products just aren't mainstream....

3) Offer an Upgrade path!!! There are too many snotty high-end only stores that look down upon anything other than a 1950's original Vinyl record played on a $10K turntable... That only frustrates and insults younger generations, it doesn't motivate them.... Don't just pick the top of say the B&W Line (800 Series)... carry everything from the 600 up... Focus on less brands per store and instead on more complete lines from entry to expensive...

4) Not everything needs to be a 550 Watt Monster Amp, but still focus on more efficient speakers and higher powered amps... So people can invite their friends over for a party and not be embarrassed because they can barely turn the volume up to a normal listening level without clipping and having the amp shutdown...

5) Emphasis 2.1 audio setups for those who must have 'killer bass'.... a simple sub will fill the needs for room shaking bass that many people expect... Mini-systems and car audio come with Subs, so provide them for those who want them...

People are probably listening to more music now than ever before, so why aren't high-end audio sales through the roof?

Like Mr. Peabody I really would love to run a little audio store oneday... (I keep trying to convince my wife that it's a good idea.... though first I need to convince myself that I can make money doing it...lol).... I'm too far from retirement to see it a retirement option though

[emaidel]

Excellent post, Ajani, and very well said. I always felt that many audiophile retailers were not only snobs, but very bad businessmen too. If the salesman couldn't convince the consumer who walked in looking to purchase a Shure V/15 of whatever era that the "only" cartridge worth listening to was a moving coil model for several thousand dollars, which, of course, required a step-up transfomer for another huge cash outlay, then that customer was one "just not worth having." Pretty stupid thinking. That's not very different from a consumer looking to purchase a Ford Taurus and being informed that the "only" car he should consider is a Mercedes E-class for three times the price.

Walking potential customers out the door because they don't want to buy what the salesman thinks is the "best," has always been a staple of many salespeople in audiophile retailers. And that's a shame.

[Chas Underhay]

Personally, I think "high end" is the most condescending and snotty term ever devised.

What exactly does it mean and where is the end? For example; a pair of Quad 2905 electrostatic speakers will set you back about 5 or 6 grand (sterling) and they are rated by some as being about as good as speakers get. Fine, these are obviously very good quality speakers but as far as I can see, it is possible to spend in excess of 50 grand on a pair of speakers. This obvioulsy means that the Quads are not high end at all but must be "budget" speakers. In time, when someone brings out some 100 grand speakers (if in fact they don't already exist); the 50 grand speakers will become "mid price" speakers.

Historically, few people have ever had good quality sound systems, 99% of people had a radiogram that was more of a piece of furniture but were perfectly content with the sound of it. Nowdays they have some sort of mini system and are still perfectly happy with it.

In the early 1970s, if you had for example a Garrard 401, SME 3009 and a Shure V15 into a Quad 33 / 303 driving something like Tannoy Lancasters; your equipment would have been beyond question. (Obviously different gear on the west side of the big pond.) In those days there would have only been a hand full alternatives such as Thorens, Leak and Spendor. Systems like this would have normally been owned by people with a serious interest in music. Whilst expensive; these systems would not have cost a kings ransom - round about £ 20 to £30 per single item - around £400 to £600 in today's money.

I remember the influx of Japanese equipment in the late 1970s, very flashy and was probably very good but no more.

As far as I'm concerned things really started to lose the plot in the 1980s with the rise of the overpaid yuppy. Hi Fi became a status symbol for these people to impress their freinds with in their Docklands Warehouse apartments. The likes of Linn and Naim cashed in on this big time. I can even remember occasionally visiting the odd dealer in those days and when you told them what equipment you had; they would look down their noses and suggest that you hand it in at the nearest police station.

As far as I can see the bubble had to burst, there are a lot less overpaid yuppies around now and those that do remain would rather inpress their friends with their home thearters.

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

Personally, I think "high end" is the most condescending and snotty term ever devised.

LOL... so true... In my earlier post I was tempted to use the term "Good Sound" instead... though to be honest, even that can be seen as snotty... but to me Good Sound doesn't need to be expensive.....

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

What exactly does it mean and where is the end? For example; a pair of Quad 2905 electrostatic speakers will set you back about 5 or 6 grand (sterling) and they are rated by some as being about as good as speakers get. Fine, these are obviously very good quality speakers but as far as I can see, it is possible to spend in excess of 50 grand on a pair of speakers. This obvioulsy means that the Quads are not high end at all but must be "budget" speakers. In time, when someone brings out some 100 grand speakers (if in fact they don't already exist); the 50 grand speakers will become "mid price" speakers.

There have been speakers in excess of $100K for quite some time.... The only limit to speaker options is how deep your pockets are.... Good point though... Read Stereophiles' Budget Components and you'll see $1.5K integrated amps listed.... Now my real question would be: How many people really think that a $1.5K amp (that can only run 2 speakers and has no tuner) is a budget product? In the 'high end' audio world - many, but in the real world, that's a lot of cash for a very simple product...

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

Historically, few people have ever had good quality sound systems, 99% of people had a radiogram that was more of a piece of furniture but were perfectly content with the sound of it. Nowdays they have some sort of mini system and are still perfectly happy with it.

True... though I think that there are many people who don't realise that better can be had... the Mini system is the standard audio product in major retailers... Now someone owning a mini system will not be impressed if you tell them that they need to spend at least $10K to get a 'respectable' system.... I think showing people a simple ugrade path would progress many from the mini system of their teenage years into better quality audio gear....

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

As far as I'm concerned things really started to lose the plot in the 1980s with the rise of the overpaid yuppy. Hi Fi became a status symbol for these people to impress their freinds with in their Docklands Warehouse apartments. The likes of Linn and Naim cashed in on this big time. I can even remember occasionally visiting the odd dealer in those days and when you told them what equipment you had; they would look down their noses and suggest that you hand it in at the nearest police station.

As far as I can see the bubble had to burst, there are a lot less overpaid yuppies around now and those that do remain would rather inpress their friends with their home thearters.

The Bubble had to burst eventually, though part of the change has been the focus more on big screen TVs as the must have luxury product... Still, there is room in the market for more than just HDTV and Home-Theatre-In-A-Box systems...

[filecat13]

Originally Posted by emaidel

Excellent post, Ajani, and very well said. I always felt that many audiophile retailers were not only snobs, but very bad businessmen too. If the salesman couldn't convince the consumer who walked in looking to purchase a Shure V/15 of whatever era that the "only" cartridge worth listening to was a moving coil model for several thousand dollars, which, of course, required a step-up transfomer for another huge cash outlay, then that customer was one "just not worth having." Pretty stupid thinking. That's not very different from a consumer looking to purchase a Ford Taurus and being informed that the "only" car he should consider is a Mercedes E-class for three times the price.

Walking potential customers out the door because they don't want to buy what the salesman thinks is the "best," has always been a staple of many salespeople in audiophile retailers. And that's a shame.

I've gotten this treatment a few times over they years, and each time was the last time that I went to the particular establishment that treated me this way. Needless to say, I was blissfully happy when one of these places went out of business. I always bore unsuspecting listeners at parties (with good sound systems) as I regale them with how witty I was in putting that uppity salesman in his place.

The last time was at a Ken Crane's here in SoCal. I went into one of the stores to look at some of their gear and happened to be looking at a "value" component (which are pretty inexpensive as Ken Crane's is really a mid-fi and big screen retailer) when a salesman pounced. Well, the dumba$$ salesman proceeded to lecture me on why I shouldn't buy the product they were selling that I was looking at and that I should really upgrade to the $2500 version, which actually would be able to do what I wanted. So I asked why they were selling a product that they couldn't recommend. His insulting reply was that all their best customers, when purchasing a car, would pick a Mercedes rather than a Toyota, when buying food would go to Bristol Farms not Ralph's, or when shopping would go to Macy's not Target. However, the chain's owner (presumably Ken Crane) insisted on having something for the Toyota crowd, just in case...

Well, I told him I drove in in a Hyundai, bought food at Albertson's and shopped at K-Mart, so I must not be the demographic they were interested in and asked to see the manager. I reamed him out for three or four minutes, then left.

Subsequently I spent over $40k on HT gear, and Ken Crane's didn't get a cent of it.

[Chas Underhay]

Originally Posted by Ajani

There have been speakers in excess of $100K for quite some time ...

I was think in sterling $50k which roughly ties up but you obviously see my point


QUOTE=Ajani] True... though I think that there are many people who don't realise that better can be had... the Mini system is the standard audio product in major retailers... Now someone owning a mini system will not be impressed if you tell them that they need to spend at least $10K to get a 'respectable' system.... I think showing people a simple ugrade path would progress many from the mini system of their teenage years into better quality audio gear...[/QUOTE]

The trouble was Ajani, that it was so much easier in the old days especially before CD. You didn't think much of the BSR auto changer with flip over ceramic cartridge in your parents radiogram tracking at about a pound and chewing up your new Jimi Hendrix records so you saved up and bought a Garrard SP25 with a budget MM cartridge. There were plenty of kit amplifiers around that were quite inexpensive and most of the major speaker manufacturers sold speaker chassis so that you could put them in your own boxes. Once you got it assembled and working, the leap in quality was phenominal, probably mostly due to the turntable and cartridge. Once you started work you then could upgrade to something like a Thorens TD150, an SME3009 (there wasn't much choice in the UK in those days) and a decent cartridge and wow!!! revelation yet again. That would then be followed (when funds permit) of a speaker upgrade then an amp upgrade.

A modern mini system will play CDs very well and will perform far better that the radiograms of old. The thing is that a good modern mini system will perform so well (relatively speaking of course) that the obvious upgrade paths of old probably aren't so obvious or viable any more.

In the old days you would aspire to owning equipment that was as good as the music was originally recorded with and that remained just about affordable. It included such items as Quad 303 power amps and Spendor BC1s (BBC monitors), which incidentally I still have and still have maintained every 10 years or so by the factory.

The way I see it; high end audio has moved on from high quality audio into some sort of fantasy land.

[filecat13]

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

Personally, I think "high end" is the most condescending and snotty term ever devised.

I understand your pique, but the most condescending and snotty ever? Maybe it's just me, but I've been dealt terms and phrases that were far more condescending and snotty. High end is a fantasy, to be sure, as you've aptly pointed out.

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

As far as I'm concerned things really started to lose the plot in the 1980s with the rise of the overpaid yuppy. Hi Fi became a status symbol for these people to impress their freinds with in their Docklands Warehouse apartments.

As one of the aforementioned overpaid yuppies, that status enabled me to truly raise the bar in every area of my life. While I assiduously avoided the pretentious, boutique brands that seemed to spring up everywhere during that time, I kept climbing the audio/video chain, an ascent that started in those hi-fi shops in the early 70s.

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

The likes of Linn and Naim cashed in on this big time. I can even remember occasionally visiting the odd dealer in those days and when you told them what equipment you had; they would look down their noses and suggest that you hand it in at the nearest police station.

You hit the nail on the head here. The superiority sneer became an art form at some dealers. Yet, if you asked what the sneering salesmen had at home, it was universally overpriced and underperforming gear that they had probably gotten at a 50-60% discount which was much closer to its actual value. I could never get one to invite me over to see and listen to it though. They probably didn't even have what they claimed.

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

As far as I can see the bubble had to burst, there are a lot less overpaid yuppies around now and those that do remain would rather inpress their friends with their home thearters.

Well, home theaters can be impressive, though it's usually the image and not the sound that gets the lion's share of attention. Someone will buy a $3k or $4k video system, spend $2k on seating, then come on here or AVS or elsewhere and ask how to get the best 5.1 or 7.1 system for $1500 or $1000.

[Feanor]

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

...
The way I see it; high end audio has moved on from high quality audio into some sort of fantasy land.

So very true. Circa 1970 you could buy say, a McIntosh C22 preamp, MC275 power amp, MR73 tuner, Thorens turntable with Shure V15 cartridge, and a pair of KLH 9 electrostatic speakers for around US$3500. That gave you pretty much SOTA. Based on general inflation rates, that cost translates to about $20,000 today.

You can indeed buy a very nice system today for $20,000, but few hardcore, (or in any event, afluent), audiophiles would consider it SOTA. Nowadays you can easily spend that on just your speaker cables, e.g. Transparent Opus MM 12' length, (see page 7), $35,000.

One of my favourite stereo, (not mulitchannel), systems is Mikel's. This could easily be in the $1,000,000 range, perhaps more. Note that Mike uses at least two pairs of the aforementioned Opus MM cables per channel.

[SlumpBuster]

Originally Posted by Ajani

2) Put more focus on today's popular trends, namely ipods and Computer Audio!!! Some High End Brands such as Musical Fidelity and PS Audio sell USB DACS in either standalone DACS or even their Integrated Amps (Musical Fidelity A1008 and A5.5)... Other Brands, most notably Krell are making ipod docks.... Krell has created a full system centred on using an ipod as the source (Krell Kid ipod Dock + Papa Dock 150 Watt Amplifier)... I know this is blasphemy to many Audiphiles, but there really needs to be less emphasis on Vinyl (and Feanor will hate this) and even on SACD... these products just aren't mainstream....

Here is a product that actually got my attention. Usually these things blow right past me. But this one just seemed to be a perfect combination of current trend, high-end, tubes, and low Chinese cost. This all in one gizmo from Shanling has a tuner, pre amp, CD player, Ipod dock and a tube amp with a blistering 3 watts of power all for about $1000. I really do think it is cool, although I read at least one review that said it looked like the Sharper Image catalogue threw up. But Shanling really should mate it with some optional speakers. Not many Joe Consumers will know how to mate this thing with speakers to achieve good synergy.

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

I was think in sterling $50k which roughly ties up but you obviously see my point.

Oh yeah, you made a good point... though assuming these speakers are real, then they do cost over $100K Sterling.... http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...7_1594crx.aspx

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

The trouble was Ajani, that it was so much easier in the old days especially before CD. You didn't think much of the BSR auto changer with flip over ceramic cartridge in your parents radiogram tracking at about a pound and chewing up your new Jimi Hendrix records so you saved up and bought a Garrard SP25 with a budget MM cartridge. There were plenty of kit amplifiers around that were quite inexpensive and most of the major speaker manufacturers sold speaker chassis so that you could put them in your own boxes. Once you got it assembled and working, the leap in quality was phenominal, probably mostly due to the turntable and cartridge. Once you started work you then could upgrade to something like a Thorens TD150, an SME3009 (there wasn't much choice in the UK in those days) and a decent cartridge and wow!!! revelation yet again. That would then be followed (when funds permit) of a speaker upgrade then an amp upgrade.

A modern mini system will play CDs very well and will perform far better that the radiograms of old. The thing is that a good modern mini system will perform so well (relatively speaking of course) that the obvious upgrade paths of old probably aren't so obvious or viable any more.

Good points as well... The bottom of the audio chain is far superior to what it used to be... even considering more modern trends... I'd take an ipod anyday over my old cassette walkman from when I was a kid... The upgrade path is more to sell on ebay/Audigon/Canuck Audiomart and buy something a little better now-a-days than to mod gear...

Originally Posted by Chas Underhay

In the old days you would aspire to owning equipment that was as good as the music was originally recorded with and that remained just about affordable. It included such items as Quad 303 power amps and Spendor BC1s (BBC monitors), which incidentally I still have and still have maintained every 10 years or so by the factory.

The way I see it; high end audio has moved on from high quality audio into some sort of fantasy land.

Agreed... The top end is just ridiculous... but to be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with that... leave the ultra-expensive gear to the ultra-rich... the rest of us can still find really good quality gear at far more affordable prices....

Originally Posted by Feanor

So very true. Circa 1970 you could buy say, a McIntosh C22 preamp, MC275 power amp, MR73 tuner, Thorens turntable with Shure V15 cartridge, and a pair of KLH 9 electrostatic speakers for around US$3500. That gave you pretty much SOTA. Based on general inflation rates, that cost translates to about $20,000 today.

You can indeed buy a very nice system today for $20,000, but few hardcore, (or in any event, afluent), audiophiles would consider it SOTA. Nowadays you can easily spend that on just your speaker cables, e.g. Transparent Opus MM 12' length, (see page 7), $35,000.

One of my favourite stereo, (not mulitchannel), systems is Mikel's. This could easily be in the $1,000,000 range, perhaps more. Note that Mike uses at least two pairs of the aforementioned Opus MM cables per channel.

Feanor, could you please stop sneaking into my house and taking pics of my stereo!!!

Ok seriously though, I love the room... though I guess I'm way too cheap, since with a room like that my dream system would be a pair of Monitor Audio Platinum 300s ($9K), a Musical Fidelity A1008 ($5K) and just an apple macbook as my source....

[SlumpBuster]

Mikel has a beautiful room, but it exemplifies one of the problems with hi-end. No matter how much he puts into it, I'll guarantee that there is some jagoff that will point out that he is using halogen lights and dimmer switches. I'm sure he has them well isolated, but some purist is sure to claim their mere presence is problematic and surely messing with the noise floor or blackness or whatever. There seems to be as much sport in the hi-end world in bagging on someone else's system as there is in appreciating someone else's system. "You're a fool for not using the clever little clock!" "Oh yeah? Well, you are a fool for using the clever little clock!" (not that that crap is hi-end, but just an extreme example) I would have problems inhabiting an audio world where so often faith seems to trump science and common sense.

Originally Posted by SlumpBuster

Mikel has a beautiful room, but it exemplifies one of the problems with hi-end. No matter how much he puts into it, I'll guarantee that there is some jagoff that will point out that he is using halogen lights and dimmer switches. I'm sure he has them well isolated, but some purist is sure to claim their mere presence is problematic and surely messing with the noise floor or blackness or whatever. There seems to be as much sport in the hi-end world in bagging on someone else's system as there is in appreciating someone else's system.

LOL.... so true, a lot of high-end is about being condescending... much the same with other hobbies like cars.... lots of bragging and insults...

Originally Posted by SlumpBuster

"You're a fool for not using the clever little clock!" "Oh yeah? Well, you are a fool for using the clever little clock!" (not that that crap is hi-end, but just an extreme example) I would have problems inhabiting an audio world where so often faith seems to trump science and common sense.

Yep, it is hard to get past all the snakeoil and blatant stupidity, in order to get to useful audio advice.....

I read an explaination of the benefits of modding audio gear on a site once... The company running the site both sells and mods gear and were explaining why it is more economically feasible for the consumer to mod the gear than for the manufacturer to just do it in the 1st place.... Since an age old question about modding is: If this $5 fuse/wire/whatever will make my $500 CD player sound like a $2000 CD player, then why didn't NAD/Cambridge Audio etc.... just add this part in the 1st place???? Anyway, the explaination was so circular and drawn out that by the time I finished reading it, I forgot what the topic was...

Now don't get me wrong here, I have no doubt that if I buy a $500 CD player and spend another $500 on modifications, that the end product will sound as good as any $1k player... but I do have a huge problem with the notion that a $100 mod on a $500 player will turn it into a $1.5K player....

[mlsstl]

Ajani wrote:
I read an explaination of the benefits of modding audio gear on a site once...

While people often do things for more than just one reason, I think a major factor for many in modding equipment is the strong human desire to possess unique things. It is one way for a person to demonstrate they are special. The smaller and more exclusive the group to which they belong, the better.

Look at the pride that comes from owning an original piece of artwork. Or a first edition of a book. Or a mint condition classic car. This list could go on at some length.

Sometimes one acquires that special status simply by having enough money to purchase an expensive item. Or, sometimes the item is more modest in price but is thought to be only appreciated by connoisseurs who are "in the know."

However, another way to get to the same spot is to take a relatively common item and then modify it in some way. From a status standpoint, you have instantly transformed an ordinary item into a special one. Look at the language that is often used to describe the now special item; one reads of "massive" or "huge" changes when the strong suspicion by others is that any real change was perhaps a bit more on the subtle side of things.

There are certainly people who will take offense from the above, but as noted, people often have multiple reasons for doing things. Whether an ego boost is the main reason or just a side benefit will obviously vary case to case, but it is still a component. Otherwise the person wouldn't bother talking about it.

Originally Posted by mlsstl

While people often do things for more than just one reason, I think a major factor for many in modding equipment is the strong human desire to possess unique things. It is one way for a person to demonstrate they are special. The smaller and more exclusive the group to which they belong, the better.

Look at the pride that comes from owning an original piece of artwork. Or a first edition of a book. Or a mint condition classic car. This list could go on at some length.

Sometimes one acquires that special status simply by having enough money to purchase an expensive item. Or, sometimes the item is more modest in price but is thought to be only appreciated by connoisseurs who are "in the know."

However, another way to get to the same spot is to take a relatively common item and then modify it in some way. From a status standpoint, you have instantly transformed an ordinary item into a special one. Look at the language that is often used to describe the now special item; one reads of "massive" or "huge" changes when the strong suspicion by others is that any real change was perhaps a bit more on the subtle side of things.

There are certainly people who will take offense from the above, but as noted, people often have multiple reasons for doing things. Whether an ego boost is the main reason or just a side benefit will obviously vary case to case, but it is still a component. Otherwise the person wouldn't bother talking about it.

I think your analysis applies to more than just modding, possibly even to the majority of high-end audio.... With some it's about the ultra-expensive, limited edition audio products... others automatically dismiss anything too popular as 'mass market junk'... Ever notice how many audiophiles would never even dream of being caught listening to a B&W or Paradigm speaker, and insist that only a hand-made obscure brand of speakers made by an unknown manufacturer are worth buying?

It's just human nature really... some want to fit in (buy what is popular), while others want to be rebellious (buy rare/obscure/modded items)...

When I started this thread, a major question was whether High-End Audio is really dying...

More and more, I wonder if it really is.... I am seeing some encouraging trends... NAD, Cambridge Audio, Rotel and Marantz are all expanding their 2 channel audio lines... Pioneer and Onkyo have made critically acclaimed returns to 2 channel recently...

Many brands are expanding their current electronics/speaker lines both in the more expensive and the budget areas....

And even the "mass market" brands seem to be pushing more 2.1 hometheatre products with better speakers, than just the tiny 5.1 and 7.1 HT-In-A-Boxes that have flooded the market in recent years....