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  1. #101
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Let me tell you

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    ...
    One of the problems with giving universal health care in the US, is that we will all be paying at minimum, 50% income tax to pay for it. This is a multi TRILLION dollar problem that the government has no answer for. Also, under this system, health care will be rationed and people in this country will not go for that.
    Reports of health rationing and waiting lists in Canada are hugely exaggerated by critics in the US, most of them with a vested interest in the current American system.

    My story about Canadian medical care has a much different flavor from yours. I had a triple coronary bypass two years ago. After diagnosis I waited a total of 5 months for surgery. This was not a problem in my case since I responded extremely well to medication and was not deem to be at risk; surgery was considered elective.

    My consultation involved two highly regarded cardiologists and a surgeon who is considered a world-class expert in "robotic" surgery. My case was considered for "robotic" surgery, (much less invasive), and that's what was expect 'till I went into the hospital. However the surgeon decided he could not do a good enough job robotically and elected to do the good old sternectomy (did I get that right?). Nevertheless he was able to do it without using a heart-lung machine and without transfusing any blood. I sayed 5 days in the hospital, receiving more consultation and physiotherapy. I went to a cardiac rehabilitation program including diet and exercise counseling .Since the operation I have had annual check ups with my cardiologist (Holter monitor, ultrasonic readings of my heart and cardioid artery, plus stress tests), the first time less than 6 weeks after the operation, in each case with excellent results.

    For all of the preceeding I was charged at total of a $800 surcharge for a semi-private hospital room plus my presciption drugs, (other than those I received in the hospital which were no charge); my employer's insurance plan paid these expenses. Had I been over 65 the prescriptions would have been paid by the Province of Ontario except for a $3.16 dispensing fee.

    Please, since you're a doctor, tell me what is wrong with any of this? While you're at it, tell me why if the Canadian system is so flawed, no Canadian politician would have the chance of a fart in a wind storm if he advocated serious reductions in the public health system. Or why the Saskatchewan premier who introduced the first universal health care system in this country was recently voted the greatest Canadian of all time?

    Please don't spread lies and half-truths about the Canadian medical system. Also, I regard that it is a LIE to say that the cost of medical services would increase in the US with a universal insurance system. Yes, it would cost governments much more, but the people less. For example, it is a fact that cost to hospitals and doctors in Canada to bill and receive payment is only 20% of what it is in the U.S. And yes, Doc, Canadian emergency rooms collect 100% of their billings.

  2. #102
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Quote from Ajani......."You ask about the percentage of minorities in Canada... ok how about this.... you explain to me what is required to gain US citizenship and I'll explain what's required to get Canadian...

    "Canada has far more immigrant friendly policies... It's not to hard to figure out whether you'd qualify for Permanent Residence (and eventually citizenship)... and it's relatively easy to get that....

    I've never heard anyone praise the US' attitude towards immigation..."

    Ajani, this is not statement against Canada's obviously excellent immagrant policies. But I think your above statement is incorrect. One thing that cannot be argued with, is that the USA has had and continues to have the most liberal immigration policies anywhere at anytime. More immigrants have landed on these shores to call it home than in any other country; period.

    I think Melvin has a good point, but I also agree in a sense with what your saying. The USA is not the be-all and end-all, but there's no denying its important role as a world leading power, and how decisions made in this country have great effect in the world.
    Last edited by O'Shag; 01-28-2008 at 06:17 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Quote from Ajani......."You ask about the percentage of minorities in Canada... ok how about this.... you explain to me what is required to gain US citizenship and I'll explain what's required to get Canadian...

    "Canada has far more immigrant friendly policies... It's not to hard to figure out whether you'd qualify for Permanent Residence (and eventually citizenship)... and it's relatively easy to get that....

    I've never heard anyone praise the US' attitude towards immigation..."

    Ajani, this is not statement against Canada's obviously excellent immagrant policies. But I think your above statement is incorrect. I am an American, having immigrated from Great Britain 20 odd years ago. One thing that cannot be argued with, is that the USA has had and continues to have the most liberal immigration policies anywhere at anytime. More immigrants have landed on these shores to call it home than in any other country; period.
    Though I appreciate your point I must note a few things:

    1) Immigration from another 1st world country such as the UK to America is not what I'd consider the best test of fair and transparent immigration policies... and while you had a fairly easy time, I'm not sure how many Mexicans and Jamaicans found the process to be quite so simple...

    2) There is no denying the shear volume of immigrants in America, but that also has a lot to do with the overall size (land and population) of the country.... I would expect a country like Grand Cayman to have far less immigrants than the US... etc....

    3) While the US has accepted many immigrants, there is still a lack of transparency and simplicity in the process... now compare that to Canada which operates on a simple point system (you can basically go online and determine whether you'd be likely to qualify for citizenship) and you see why I regard the US policies as not being immigrant friendly...

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    I think Melvin has a good point, but I also agree in a sense with what your saying. The USA is not the be-all and end-all, but there's no denying its important role as a world leading power, and how decisions made in this country have great effect in the world.
    I'll agree that the US is EXTREMELY important in the world... it is a large superpower... but my real problem with Melvin's post is that it reflects the attitude that the US is doing the rest of the world a huge favour, and that everyone should be thankful to have the US around to save their butts... which is absurd.... The world would continue without the US, it wouldn't be the same (some things a lot worse) but it would continue...

  4. #104
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Canadian health care system and that the US system is great. I was just pointing out that there are problems with the canadain system as well. The canadian Dr in our group has all sorts of horror stories dealing with the canadian system and I have heard similar stories from other canadian physicians. There are just as many horror stories in the US system as well, Here in the states if you need to see a specialist on an emergency or semi emergency basis you will see him right away and your will get the latest technology. Here in the US every hospital has a CT scanner and just about every hosplital has an MRI scanner, this is not the case in canada. And if you needed open heart surgery it wpuld be done right away, no waiting. I always tell the story of the patient I had in the ER who broke his leg and needed an orthopedic surgeon. The Dr that was on call was a Canadian who used to practice in Canada. It took him 2hrs to see the patient at 10pm, The patient was pissed and made some comment that if we had the canadian system he would have gotten better care, The Canadain Dr told him if this was Canada, I wouldnt be seeing you till 10am the next day, be thankful your here in the US!
    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the US system is better than the Canada's because its not. But in some respects it rivals Canada's in that every one here has access to state of the art medicine with out having to wait and with out rationing based on age or probability of survival (and I'm a proponent of this thinking, we can't save every one). And if you don't think that that goes on in Canada, then you need to wake up, because it does. And thats what will happen here in the US if universal health care goes through and the american peolpe will not like it.

    Geez, this thread has gone way off course!
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Canadian health care system and that the US system is great. I was just pointing out that there are problems with the canadain system as well. The canadian Dr in our group has all sorts of horror stories dealing with the canadian system and I have heard similar stories from other canadian physicians. There are just as many horror stories in the US system as well, Here in the states if you need to see a specialist on an emergency or semi emergency basis you will see him right away and your will get the latest technology. Here in the US every hospital has a CT scanner and just about every hosplital has an MRI scanner, this is not the case in canada. And if you needed open heart surgery it wpuld be done right away, no waiting. I always tell the story of the patient I had in the ER who broke his leg and needed an orthopedic surgeon. The Dr that was on call was a Canadian who used to practice in Canada. It took him 2hrs to see the patient at 10pm, The patient was pissed and made some comment that if we had the canadian system he would have gotten better care, The Canadain Dr told him if this was Canada, I wouldnt be seeing you till 10am the next day, be thankful your here in the US!
    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the US system is better than the Canada's because its not. But in some respects it rivals Canada's in that every one here has access to state of the art medicine with out having to wait and with out rationing based on age or probability of survival (and I'm a proponent of this thinking, we can't save every one). And if you don't think that that goes on in Canada, then you need to wake up, because it does. And thats what will happen here in the US if universal health care goes through and the american peolpe will not like it.

    Geez, this thread has gone way off course!
    Agreed... this thread really has gone way off course...

    it's all Melvin's fault!!! we should hang him for his comments (ok that made be a bit much)...

    Seriously though, I don't think this is really meant to be a bash Canada/bash the US thread... both are fantastic countries with great opportunity for people to have better lives...

    What is happening is that some of us were not pleased by the way Melvin refered to the US as pretty much the centre of the known universe (not an exact quote - obviously, but essentially the spirit of things)... so we got a bit overzealous in our description of the flaws in the US system vs Canada...

    The point is just that the US is not the end all be all of the world.... though it is a great country and has many accomplishments to be proud of...

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Though I appreciate your point I must note a few things:

    1) Immigration from another 1st world country such as the UK to America is not what I'd consider the best test of fair and transparent immigration policies... and while you had a fairly easy time, I'm not sure how many Mexicans and Jamaicans found the process to be quite so simple...

    2) There is no denying the shear volume of immigrants in America, but that also has a lot to do with the overall size (land and population) of the country.... I would expect a country like Grand Cayman to have far less immigrants than the US... etc....

    3) While the US has accepted many immigrants, there is still a lack of transparency and simplicity in the process... now compare that to Canada which operates on a simple point system (you can basically go online and determine whether you'd be likely to qualify for citizenship) and you see why I regard the US policies as not being immigrant friendly...



    I'll agree that the US is EXTREMELY important in the world... it is a large superpower... but my real problem with Melvin's post is that it reflects the attitude that the US is doing the rest of the world a huge favour, and that everyone should be thankful to have the US around to save their butts... which is absurd.... The world would continue without the US, it wouldn't be the same (some things a lot worse) but it would continue...
    You are correct without the U.S. the world would continue. What kind of world would we have. Europe is safer because of NATO , the backbone of NATO is the U.S. The United Nation plays a major role in what little peace we have , the United Nations would be unworkable without the U.S.
    Trade and commerce would not be effective if it was not the presence of the U.S. navy , which protects the sea lanes.
    The American dollar backed up by a strong GNP gives stability to other nations currences.

    The U.S. does act in it's interest. The standard of living has been improving in the rest of the world thinks to international trade promoted and protected by the U.S.
    The largest contributor to the U.N. is the U.S.A. The world would be a more dangerous place to live in without the U.N. National disasters and health issues in poorer countries has been aided by the U.N. financed mostly by the U.S.

    The 19th and 20th century has seen the world progress at a rate 100 times greater than at any time in the world's history. Thanks to the stabilizing influences and military power of the British and the United States.
    What would happen in the Middle East if the Arab militants were allowed to reintroduce
    Muslim fundamentalism ? What would have been the results if NATO backed by the U.S.
    had not intervened in the Baltics , where two world wars began.

    Many people dislike a stern and powerful super power , Who else would you prefer as that super power ? China ? Russia ? Japan . Germany ? Great Britain ?
    The United States is not a perfect nation , but over the last 200 years no nation has worked has hard as the U.S. to solve problems that many thought was unsolvable..

  7. #107
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    I was wondering how long it would take for that four letter word to finally show up.

    Well, actually an acronym.

    NATO

    Something that's often overlooked in these discussions, particularly by those who have realized the most benefit it over the past 50+ years.

    It's kinda like a umberlla. You know it never rains when you carry it, only when you leave it someplace else does it rain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Reports of health rationing and waiting lists in Canada are hugely exaggerated by critics in the US, most of them with a vested interest in the current American system.

    My story about Canadian medical care has a much different flavor from yours. I had a triple coronary bypass two years ago. After diagnosis I waited a total of 5 months for surgery. This was not a problem in my case since I responded extremely well to medication and was not deem to be at risk; surgery was considered elective.

    My consultation involved two highly regarded cardiologists and a surgeon who is considered a world-class expert in "robotic" surgery. My case was considered for "robotic" surgery, (much less invasive), and that's what was expect 'till I went into the hospital. However the surgeon decided he could not do a good enough job robotically and elected to do the good old sternectomy (did I get that right?). Nevertheless he was able to do it without using a heart-lung machine and without transfusing any blood. I sayed 5 days in the hospital, receiving more consultation and physiotherapy. I went to a cardiac rehabilitation program including diet and exercise counseling .Since the operation I have had annual check ups with my cardiologist (Holter monitor, ultrasonic readings of my heart and cardioid artery, plus stress tests), the first time less than 6 weeks after the operation, in each case with excellent results.

    For all of the preceeding I was charged at total of a $800 surcharge for a semi-private hospital room plus my presciption drugs, (other than those I received in the hospital which were no charge); my employer's insurance plan paid these expenses. Had I been over 65 the prescriptions would have been paid by the Province of Ontario except for a $3.16 dispensing fee.

    Please, since you're a doctor, tell me what is wrong with any of this? While you're at it, tell me why if the Canadian system is so flawed, no Canadian politician would have the chance of a fart in a wind storm if he advocated serious reductions in the public health system. Or why the Saskatchewan premier who introduced the first universal health care system in this country was recently voted the greatest Canadian of all time?

    Please don't spread lies and half-truths about the Canadian medical system. Also, I regard that it is a LIE to say that the cost of medical services would increase in the US with a universal insurance system. Yes, it would cost governments much more, but the people less. For example, it is a fact that cost to hospitals and doctors in Canada to bill and receive payment is only 20% of what it is in the U.S. And yes, Doc, Canadian emergency rooms collect 100% of their billings.
    I will not try and compare health care in the U.S. and health care in Canada. The two systems has it's critics and supporters.
    The question is are American citizens willing to pay the higher taxes for national health care ? If taxes are increased what would be the effect on American business as well as the individual tax payers ?

    Western Europe has seen slow growth , high unemployment and tax avoidance because of high governmental taxes. ,. In America what would happen to our consumer based economy if the consumer has less to spend due to higher taxes.
    How many Americans would have the extra money to spend on that new LCD ?,
    newer surround sound system ?, , replace that 7 year old car ?, move into a larger home ?
    update that aging computer ? etc. Would it mean a slower growth consumer market ,?, that usually spells recession !



    The issue is higher taxes are lower taxes. Most Americans have health care. The poor Medicaid , the elderly Medicare , and most of those working, company health care.
    It is those unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the middle that has little are no health care. The final question is how much health care does one require and who should pay for it ? A friend of mine asked the question , what kind of health care are do we want the government to provide Cadillac health care are Chevrolet health care.
    Using an audio metaphor , separates health care or receiver health cars ?
    It's your money.

  9. #109
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    All valid questions

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin walker
    I will not try and compare health care in the U.S. and health care in Canada. The two systems has it's critics and supporters.
    The question is are American citizens willing to pay the higher taxes for national health care ? If taxes are increased what would be the effect on American business as well as the individual tax payers ?

    Western Europe has seen slow growth , high unemployment and tax avoidance because of high governmental taxes. ,. In America what would happen to our consumer based economy if the consumer has less to spend due to higher taxes.
    How many Americans would have the extra money to spend on that new LCD ?,
    newer surround sound system ?, , replace that 7 year old car ?, move into a larger home ? update that aging computer ? etc. Would it mean a slower growth consumer market ,?, that usually spells recession !

    The issue is higher taxes are lower taxes. Most Americans have health care. The poor Medicaid , the elderly Medicare , and most of those working, company health care.
    It is those unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the middle that has little are no health care. The final question is how much health care does one require and who should pay for it ? A friend of mine asked the question , what kind of health care are do we want the government to provide Cadillac health care are Chevrolet health care.
    Using an audio metaphor , separates health care or receiver health cars ?
    It's your money.
    Melvin, your questions are all quite valid and it will be up to Americans to answer them.

    A few things to bear in mind during the debate:
    • If a thing is "free" from the perspective of the consumer, them some sort of rationing is inevidable. But bear in mind that is applies whether the rationing agency is a government health department or a private for-profit organization, e.g. an HMO.
    • Take care to distinguish between the cost to government, (i.e. taxpayer), and the overall cost of the system, (i.e. the total cost per patient treated). The former might be higher while the latter is lower, e.g. there are potentially huge administrative cost saving in a universal one-payer system
    • Beware of the selfishness factor, (as I call it), that is, the notion among healthy/wealthy citizens that their personal level of health care will inevidably decline if they have to "subsidize" the less well/well-off. There could be a degree of truth here, but the degree of care forfeiture and/or "subsidy" might be less than they supposed -- and much less than vested interests constantly imply.
    Last edited by Feanor; 01-29-2008 at 07:38 AM.

  10. #110
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  11. #111
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    No, it was my fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Agreed... this thread really has gone way off course...

    it's all Melvin's fault!!! we should hang him for his comments (ok that made be a bit much)...

    Seriously though, I don't think this is really meant to be a bash Canada/bash the US thread... both are fantastic countries with great opportunity for people to have better lives...

    ...
    I don't think it was Melvin. I got into a little Republican bash -- it was never intended to be USA bashing.

    Blackraven is correct that the Canadian health system is far from prefect. Another personal example from me is that it took over a year for me and my familty to find a family physician here in London, Ontario; chances are a "market system" would have prevented the problem. Nevertheless the Canadian system IS better than the US system for most people most of the time: no Canadian patient is know of would trade our system for the US'. For medical professionals out to maximize their incomes it might be a different matter; (blackraven, these are the sorts of people you are hearing from). Horror stories about rationing and waiting lists in Canada grossly exaggerate the real situation.

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    My only off-topic comment is this: THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. IS BROKEN!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    My only off-topic comment is this: THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. IS BROKEN!!!
    PROVE IT ! PRESENT SOME DATA TO SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENT. " THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. IS BROKEN."

  14. #114
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    [*]Beware of the selfishness factor, (as I call it), that is, the notion among healthy/wealthy citizens that their personal level of health care will inevidably decline if they have to "subsidize" the less well/well-off. There could be a degree of truth here, but the degree of care forfeiture and/or "subsidy" might be less than they supposed -- and much less than vested interests constantly imply.[/LIST]
    Much respect to your point of view Feanor, but let's remember that everything is relative. With an estimated 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants already in the U.S. enjoying free medical health care and not contributing to the system the call for a big warm fuzzy is a bit disproportionate to the very real amount of graft within that system.

    I have no problem paying taxes to address the problems of the citizenry I just expect that everyone is contributing...not necessarily to my ability but to the best of theirs. And to use a point of reference for the system being out of control I would point to the three hospitals that have gone out of business in Orange County over the last couple of years. The administrators in these facilities simply couldn't collect enough billables to stay afloat, much less make a profit. And try and find a clinic in the O.C...

    Frankly, I don't care if there is a lack of transparency in the current immigration policy. To wade through it would seemingly indicate a willingness to conform to at least the rudimentary elements of citizenry. Anyone who goes through that will be welcomed as my neighbor with open arms and anyone else...not so much
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    Okay one more off-topic comment JUST FOR YOU MELVIN...

    When I have to get approval from my health insurance provider before I can get a prescription written by my physician filled, something's not right. IOW... BROKEN!

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Okay one more off-topic comment JUST FOR YOU MELVIN...

    When I have to get approval from my health insurance provider before I can get a prescription written by my physician filled, something's not right. IOW... BROKEN!
    Yeah, well 150 years ago Melvin didn't need health insurance. He either bled the demons out, or waited for the snake oil salesman to sell him some "magic elixer". No doubt Heroin based, it made everything "better". Even his grammaphone sounded better.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    TS, have I told you I've had my car dyno'ed on the same machine Lou Gigliotti tunes his race cars on?
    Well, since this thread is completely off topic anyway, you might as well spill:

    Let's see the graph F-boy!!!

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    Beefy, was that before or after leeches?

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    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Topspeed,

    How cool is that! a German Shepherd Wolfhound mix! I know excatly what you mean. The one problem when you have these dogs around little kiddies and the elderly is they brush past and can knock someone over. But as they grow older they know, and if you train them well they're good listeners. Kublai - thats a great name. I bet she can move
    I got some firm instructions from the breeder about establishing dominance when they are young. And after that Saxon took commands very well. You dont want a big huge dog 'in charge' - that can be dangerous.

  20. #120
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, its the front part i.e. another word for cat and can sometimes smell somewhat like fish - if you catch my drift. Mind you some girls would go for it just for the striaghtforwardness of the approach.

    By the way Melvin, no offense, but with respect to the state of the Healthcare system in the US; what I think you fail to consider is that a great many people in the US have no health insurance. My mother-in-law (to be) had to go into the hospital and was there really for observational purposes for 2 days. Her bill was $29,000. She couldn;t hope to afford it (we paid). So many people cannot afford these costs. I understand the paradox, becuase if you 'socialize' or subsidize the system, then ultimately you have to raise taxes A LOT!
    But I think its a mistake to assume that the system works well, it doesn't. There are problems for those of limited means i.e. the majority of the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, its the front part i.e. another word for cat and can sometimes smell somewhat like fish - if you catch my drift.
    Uhh... yeah, I get it O. I think we all appreciate your subtle reference to cooch as well.

  22. #122
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    When I have a house of my own instead of an apartment (soon I hope) I want to build a large pre-fab workshed, where I can do woodwork and metal work, as well as work on a car project. Would love to have a welding station, plating tank, enameling oven, paint booth. I'd also set up a full electronics work area. Some projects I'd like to pursue would be to build my own fancy racks and cables. Also would try my hand at building my own preamp, amps, cables, and speakers. Chance would be a fine thing...

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Shag
    Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, .......

    Where in Canada is this? We use fanny like everyone else...hmmm, that didn't sound like I meant it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Beefy, was that before or after leeches?
    Believe it or not, leeches are making a comeback, as well as maggots. I know it sounds gross, but maggots are VERY effective for people with diabetes that have sores that don't heal.

    They basically eat the dead flesh, and only leave good flesh. This combats gangrene, and can help them (the patients) from losing a leg.

    Interestingly this therapy was discovered in the Civil War. Patients who were left on the battlefield fared better than those that were brought to the "hospital" quickly. The patients that were left behind on the battfield generally had flies land on their wounds and lay eggs. The resulting maggots ate the dead flesh, and allowed the wounds to properly heal.

    Those that went to the hospital usually had a limb removed with little or no pain meds and died from either shock or blood loss.

    After antibiotics maggot therapy fell out of favor, but is gaining resurgance thanks to anti-biotic resistant germs.
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  25. #125
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Do you really expect anyone to believe that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundbeef
    Believe it or not, leeches are making a comeback, as well as maggots. I know it sounds gross, but maggots are VERY effective for people with diabetes that have sores that don't heal.

    They basically eat the dead flesh, and only leave good flesh. This combats gangrene, and can help them (the patients) from losing a leg.

    Interestingly this therapy was discovered in the Civil War. Patients who were left on the battlefield fared better than those that were brought to the "hospital" quickly. The patients that were left behind on the battfield generally had flies land on their wounds and lay eggs. The resulting maggots ate the dead flesh, and allowed the wounds to properly heal.

    Those that went to the hospital usually had a limb removed with little or no pain meds and died from either shock or blood loss.

    After antibiotics maggot therapy fell out of favor, but is gaining resurgance thanks to anti-biotic resistant germs.
    ...at least without any backup, that is.

    Here ya go: http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2003/july/leech.htm

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