What compromises would you accept?

[Ajani]

Sins of omission such as frequency extremes and output capability. Get the midrange right first. No receivers.

rw

I've always liked the terms "sins of omission" in audio... However, even then the omission can't be too obvious or it pulls me out of the experience...

I don't mind sacrificing frequency extremes as long as they are "extreme"... So while I'd love to have a flat response from 20hz to 20khz, I can accept not hitting that target as long as my Reggae still sounds good... However, if I cant hear the drums, then that omission of bass is too obvious... So no amount of sweet and gloriously detailed midrange will make up for missing the opening drum beat in 'Turn Your Lights Down Low'...

[Woochifer]

IAs for $15K not being middle class, I'd have to disagree... It is the top of the range and beyond what many (most) would want to spend, but it is possible without being rich... Keep in mind a few things (1) Not everyone has kids (and possibly a wife) to support, so that would free up a large chunk of spending money (2) Instead of driving a new Camry or Accord some persons are content with a really old Civic (3) You don't have to spend all $15K at once; most audiophiles build their systems over time - so you might start with an expensive pair of speakers and eventually get appropriate quality source and amplification to match... So yeah $15K is very expensive, but it is still possible with a middle class income...

Yes, it's POSSIBLE within a middle class budget, but not realistic given how many other budgetary priorities most households have.

It doesn't sound to me like you have kids. Believe me, everything changed after my daughter was born.

Consider that the average American household spends less than $100 a year on audio products. That's the kind of perspective that self-proclaimed audiophiles need to weigh in their heads when they start attacking people who buy "midfi" or entry level audio products. Remember that the aggregate U.S. revenue from the ENTIRE home audio component market is only around $1 billion a year. That's about the same amount as 12 Walmart stores.

Compare this with the automobile market, where the household spending on automobile purchases averages around $4,000 a year.

Yes, it's possible to save up and juggle around the budget to fit a $15,000 audio system into the mix. But, with middle class incomes, the amount that goes to discretionary purchases is very narrow. In that context, I think calling a $15,000 audio budget "middle class" just doesn't fit within any realistic definitions of that term.

[GMichael]

Budget aside, I would be willing to give up ear splitting volumes. I don’t listen to music loud anymore. I used to play my system(s) at max volumes all the time, but the last few years I’ve calmed down. I’d rather just here great sound at a lower level.

[Ajani]

Yes, it's POSSIBLE within a middle class budget, but not realistic given how many other budgetary priorities most households have.

It doesn't sound to me like you have kids. Believe me, everything changed after my daughter was born.

Consider that the average American household spends less than $100 a year on audio products. That's the kind of perspective that self-proclaimed audiophiles need to weigh in their heads when they start attacking people who buy "midfi" or entry level audio products. Remember that the aggregate U.S. revenue from the ENTIRE home audio component market is only around $1 billion a year. That's about the same amount as 12 Walmart stores.

Compare this with the automobile market, where the household spending on automobile purchases averages around $4,000 a year.

Yes, it's possible to save up and juggle around the budget to fit a $15,000 audio system into the mix. But, with middle class incomes, the amount that goes to discretionary purchases is very narrow. In that context, I think calling a $15,000 audio budget "middle class" just doesn't fit within any realistic definitions of that term.

So not having kids makes someone outside a realistic middle class definition? $15K is probably only unrealistic if you have kids... Not all middle class persons do... So while it's still very expensive, it is still possible over a period of years... Just consider how much money you'd save from diapers straight up to college tuition (if you had no kids) and suddenly $15K ain't that big a deal with a middle class income...

BTW, I have no issue with mass market gear... No one should need to justify why they "only" spent $500 on a HTIB.... We all have different priorities (and expenses)...

[Ajani]

Budget aside, I would be willing to give up ear splitting volumes. I don’t listen to music loud anymore. I used to play my system(s) at max volumes all the time, but the last few years I’ve calmed down. I’d rather just here great sound at a lower level.

As long as it has enough volume to fill a small to medium sized room with sound, then I'm happy.... I'll leave the frat party volumes to my students....

While my last 2 amps were both beasts Rotel RB-1080 (200 Watts - measured almost 300 though) and Emotiva XPA-2 (300 Watts), my next amp will likely be max 50 watts... I'm unlikely to get speakers with lower than 84db sensitivity and my room isn't likely to be big enough to warrant more power...

[JohnMichael]

Now that I have power I would not compromise. I love the dynamics and ultimate volume of the Krell driving the RS6's. The MoFi OML compresses much earlier than the RS6's. I do enjoy listening to some music loudly and now without distortion.

[Hyfi]

So not having kids makes someone outside a realistic middle class definition? $15K is probably only unrealistic if you have kids... Not all middle class persons do... So while it's still very expensive, it is still possible over a period of years... Just consider how much money you'd save from diapers straight up to college tuition (if you had no kids) and suddenly $15K ain't that big a deal with a middle class income...

BTW, I have no issue with mass market gear... No one should need to justify why they "only" spent $500 on a HTIB.... We all have different priorities (and expenses)...

I have no kids but dropping 15K on anything is out of the question since I plan to be able to afford to retire someday. However, if you use the original list prices of the gear I have now, I am well over the 15K mark.

Clearfield speakers were $4500 new, Conterpoint NPS400 was $4500 new, VAC CLA pre was $5200 new, the Synergistic cables that came with it totaled close to $2000. I paid $300 for it all and another $300 to get the Pre and amp tubed and working.

That list above does not include my HT receiver, CDP, DVD, Blu, Dynaudio 82s and 42s, my center and sub and all the other cabling.

[GMichael]

Does the number for the budget really matter? I think that the idea was just if you are working within a budget what compromised would you accept? Different people will have different budgets, same as different people define compromise differently.
Some think that their HTiB is the best you can buy. Others wouldn't consider any receiver or MC system as not worth it's weight in spit.

[Ajani]

Does the number for the budget really matter? I think that the idea was just if you are working within a budget what compromised would you accept?

Yes, that has always been the point... but it seems some persons seriously object to me including $15K at the top of a middle class budget...

Different people will have different budgets, same as different people define compromise differently.
Some think that their HTiB is the best you can buy. Others wouldn't consider any receiver or MC system as not worth it's weight in spit.

Also my point.... Just because someone would never consider spending $15K on a system (for whatever reasons) doesn't mean that someone else would have to be rich to spend $15K...

It's like assuming that because someone wears a Rolex or drives a BMW that he must be rich... I know persons who live in apartments that I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes in, let alone live in, yet they own a very nice car.... It's a matter of priorities....

[GMichael]

Well, at least it stirred up a debate. That's very welcome around here these days.

[Ajani]

Well, at least it stirred up a debate. That's very welcome around here these days.

Yeah. I certainly enjoy having a debate on this site... It has been fairly quiet lately....

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, I'm kind of the oddball in that the compromise that I will not accept is going back to a dedicated two-channel rig. I've accumulated enough essential multichannel SACDs and DVD-As that my main audio system will always be at least a 5.1 setup. There are simply aspects of audio reproduction that a great 5.1 mix can do that no two-channel setup can do, period, no matter how many investments or upgrades you make across the entire chain.

So, what compromises would I/have I gone with? Well, I've gone with standmounted speakers all the way. In my experience, it's a big budgetary jump to find a really good set of floorstanding speakers. It would be nice to have full range speakers all the way around, but that's where the budgetary compromise kicks in. And there are many advantages to going with a subwoofer, especially the added placement flexibility and equalization options.

With a budget of up to $15k (and believe me, that's NOT a "middle class" budget!), I would simply optimize around a set of outstanding standmount speakers, and invest in a processor with critical time alignment performance, particularly in the subwoofer channel (my current receiver does not have this available in the sub channel, while my SACD player does -- I can hear an audible improvement in the bass coherency after adjusting the time alignment).

Going further down the line with further budget reductions, I would drop the amplification a step and maybe even forego the dedicated processor and simply use a receiver to handle the processing/switching functions, while using an outboard amp.

I with you Wooch, I would never go back to a two channel system. I like the ability of playing ALL formats, whether they are two channel, or 7.1.

[GMichael]

I with you Wooch, I would never go back to a two channel system. I like the ability of playing ALL formats, whether they are two channel, or 7.1.

Some would see that as a compromise of its own. Personally, I'll take that kind of compromise and rejoce in it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Some would see that as a compromise of its own. Personally, I'll take that kind of compromise and rejoce in it.

I hate to say this(well maybe I don't), but I don't care what another person see's as a compromise. It is my money, my system, and my choice in the end, so their opinion does not count. Now if they want to pay for it....that changes everything!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, at least it stirred up a debate. That's very welcome around here these days.

Well, based on what I have seen, debates are certainly NOT welcomed here.

[GMichael]

I hate to say this(well maybe I don't), but I don't care what another person see's as a compromise. It is my money, my system, and my choice in the end, so their opinion does not count. Now if they want to pay for it....that changes everything!

You and I both know that you enjoyed saying that.

I only brought it up because it's what this thread is about, and some people do feel that way. I'd rather have the all around system, including my 106" HDTV.

[Ajani]

ITS THE OLD law of diminishing returns that I keep bringing up, not that much diff between
a 1500 dollar system and a 15,000 SYSTEM, and thats mostly tactile.
THE fancy cabinet, the speaker cabinet from an endangered species, etc.
If you can live without the frills, you can still get the "thrills".

Just my 2 cents; but I think that the difference between a $1.5K and $15K setup would depend more on the listener.... The distortion test E-Stat linked to sometime ago, best illustrates that point... Essentially a more trained listener (I don't mean someone who just enjoys listening to a lot of music - I mean someone who spends time picking the sound apart in HiFi terms) would better be able to determine the difference.... Someone who just loves listening to music, might hardly even notice a difference...

The first time I took Stat's test I got a decent score, with a few more tries I was better able to identify distortion... I believe that if I spent a lot of time practicing I could probably do fairly well... So while I might not hear that much difference between a $5K and $15K setup, someone else might be able to write an essay on the differences...

However, with all that in mind, the question I ask myself is whether it makes sense to train myself to hear that difference... Why train myself to be dissatisfied with what I have or can afford?

[bobsticks]

Does the number for the budget really matter?

The number of the budget doesn't matter but the numerical determination of what equals middle class sure as hell does. If the Fed keeps printing up funny money with reckless abandon we'll all be poverty-stricken.

Lower-middle class needs to start around $100k. There's no way I can be expected to keep up this steady diet of Picanha and Ravenswood Old Hill Ranch and possibly drop $15k on a system.

[Ajani]

The number of the budget doesn't matter but the numerical determination of what equals middle class sure as hell does. If the Fed keeps printing up funny money with reckless abandon we'll all be poverty-stricken.

Lower-middle class needs to start around $100k. There's no way I can be expected to keep up this steady diet of Picanha and Ravenswood Old Hill Ranch and possibly drop $15k on a system.

So maybe you should drop the Picanha and Ravenswood Old Hill Ranch from your diet... That would free up some cash for the HiFi...

EDIT: Forget that... Drop the stereo... I just looked up what Picanha is and it looks so delicious that tears are coming to my eyes.... Who needs a stereo when you can have that?

[bobsticks]

A guy's gotta have the basic necessities...

[E-Stat]

However, with all that in mind, the question I ask myself is whether it makes sense to train myself to hear that difference... Why train myself to be dissatisfied with what I have or can afford?

I approach the question differently. For me, hearing better systems than mine does not diminish the enjoyment I get from my own. The experience of hearing spectacular ones, like that of live unamplifiied concerts just becomes all the more special. My glass is never empty.

rw

[tube fan]

I have never made compromises in audio judged by playback volume or frequency response. Without true deep bass, you just lose too much that drives all types of music, classic, jazz, or pop. At the $15,000 price point, you can get it all. My current system (Fulton J speakers, flat from 20 to 30,000, cost $2500 new; AR SP 8 and AR D70 cost $4,000; VPI Scoutmaster $2500; Benz Ruby 3 $3,000; Fosgate Phono $2500) If you buy used, you can get a great audio system for $8,000.

[Feanor]

...
EDIT: Forget that... Drop the stereo... I just looked up what Picanha is and it looks so delicious that tears are coming to my eyes.... Who needs a stereo when you can have that?

Just another trans fat-laden steak.

[GMichael]

The number of the budget doesn't matter but the numerical determination of what equals middle class sure as hell does. If the Fed keeps printing up funny money with reckless abandon we'll all be poverty-stricken.

Lower-middle class needs to start around $100k. There's no way I can be expected to keep up this steady diet of Picanha and Ravenswood Old Hill Ranch and possibly drop $15k on a system.

I must be in the lower lower middle class.

[Feanor]

I must be in the lower lower middle class.

Me too, GM. But I'm willing to accept donations to bring me up to the lower-middle standard, (from 'Sticks or whoever).