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  1. #51
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    The RIAA reports that in 2007 vinyl shipments increased by 36.6%, and revenue on vinyl sales increased by 46.2%. SACD shipments, on the other hand, declined by 30.5%, with revenue declining by 34.2%.

    Vinyl is experiencing huge market growth. In fact, Amazon now carries over 250,000 vinyl titles. In contrast, there are less than 6 thousand SACD titles on the market, mostly classical.

    Face it, SACD is dead. Vinyl will long outlive CD and other physical mediums.

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  2. #52
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    I wonder why more mainstream titles weren't offered on SACD.

    I had a pretty large vinyl collection when SACD hit. I had already stood at the crossroad and decided to keep the vinyl and gladly after hearing a Rega P2 that showed me how well vinyl can sound. My reason for not supporting SACD were:
    1. I was not hot on collecting yet another format. ( Said as he sees his Blu-ray movies slowly stacking up ) Which must show if a format had something to really offer I'd probably eventually come aboard.
    2. When I heard SACD as it hit the market it did not sound better than CD. A $3k Krell CD player could mop the floor with a $7.5k Marantz SACD player with each using their respective formats. This stuck in my mind for a long time. Even though some of these dealers now say that SACD does offer more fidelity it's too late and I still have yet to hear that demo. I would like to hear just so I would know.
    3. Even if I was convinced, or had been convinced, SACD didn't offer anything I would listen to. And that, is a significant reason. If 2 & 3 were solved, then one would probably fall as well.

  3. #53
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Sad

    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    The RIAA reports that in 2007 vinyl shipments increased by 36.6%, and revenue on vinyl sales increased by 46.2%. SACD shipments, on the other hand, declined by 30.5%, with revenue declining by 34.2%.

    Vinyl is experiencing huge market growth. In fact, Amazon now carries over 250,000 vinyl titles. In contrast, there are less than 6 thousand SACD titles on the market, mostly classical.

    Face it, SACD is dead. Vinyl will long outlive CD and other physical mediums.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    It is without rational explanation.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    When I heard SACD as it hit the market it did not sound better than CD. A $3k Krell CD player could mop the floor with a $7.5k Marantz SACD player with each using their respective formats. This stuck in my mind for a long time. Even though some of these dealers now say that SACD does offer more fidelity it's too late and I still have yet to hear that demo. I would like to hear just so I would know.
    Interestingly enough, I recently did a face-off between my Naim CD5x and Oppo 983 over analogue, with the Beatles Love CD in my Naim, and the Beatles Love DVD-Audio in my Oppo. The Oppo sounded weak, tinny, lacked soul and presence, and I could not hear any added detail in the higher resolution format. The Naim absolutely trounced the Oppo for playback.

    There's no question in mind that a solid CD player can hold its own against these new higher resolution formats, and I suspect I would have to spend a lot of money to purchase any SACD player that could hold its own against the Naim CD Player (for what?). Meanwhile, my turntable sounds as good as the Naim, at a fraction of the cost.

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  5. #55
    It's all about the music. Doc Sage's Avatar
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    Has this thread been highjacked? LOL

    What audio brands are you not attracted to?

    But first!!!! Nice to read about SACD vs. Vinyl but may I ask...what will be next for "us audiophiles"?

    CD's, MP3's and the IPOD were all created to satisfies the general puplic with little effort given to the quality of the reproduction. I remember how bad CD's sounded back in the mid 80"s, I owned one of the first Sony player and was crying thinking of what a fool I was to sell all my LP's.

    Mind you, today I find the reproduction quite good but it took some time for the recording technicians to correct their recording methods, for the electronic companies to find and correct their design faux pas, etc...

    But...if I was to use my computer as a music storage devise, if I was to upgrade my sound card and have the proper connection to my audiophile grade amplifier, how will the artists creations be transfered to my computer in all its fidelity? Do we have the mean to do so today? Where will I find this? What program do I need?

    Back to the topic. I do not care for most micro systems although Denon done a pretty good system that included some Mission speakers.

    Doc Sage

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Sage
    But...if I was to use my computer as a music storage devise, if I was to upgrade my sound card and have the proper connection to my audiophile grade amplifier, how will the artists creations be transfered to my computer in all its fidelity? Do we have the mean to do so today? Where will I find this? What program do I need?
    One word for you: FLAC

    Nine Inch Nails recently released their latest album on their website, available for download in MP3, FLAC and M4A lossless, and 24-bit 96 kHz wave. This is higher than CD quality, and the download was absolutely free. I stream the FLAC lossess audio through my SqueezeBox from my laptop. If you were to combine a SqueezeBox with an outboard DAC, all the while streaming FLAC, you'd end up with an outstanding system that will rival many of the best CD players on the market.

    Anyways, I can only hope that Nine Inch Nails sets an industry trend. For now, all of the CD's I've ripped to my hard drive are lossless FLAC. I presently use the SqueezeBox mostly for background music or streaming Internet radio via analogue, but it's an outstanding player for the money.

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    One word for you: FLAC

    Nine Inch Nails recently released their latest album on their website, available for download in MP3, FLAC and M4A lossless, and 24-bit 96 kHz wave. This is higher than CD quality, and the download was absolutely free. I stream the FLAC lossess audio through my SqueezeBox from my laptop. If you were to combine a SqueezeBox with an outboard DAC, all the while streaming FLAC, you'd end up with an outstanding system that will rival many of the best CD players on the market.

    Anyways, I can only hope that Nine Inch Nails sets an industry trend. For now, all of the CD's I've ripped to my hard drive are lossless FLAC. I presently use the SqueezeBox mostly for background music or streaming Internet radio via analogue, but it's an outstanding player for the money.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    That's what I'm talking about!!!

    Lossless + Squeezebox + Good DAC = High Quality Digital Source...

    And I think Nine Inch Nails is just the beginning... A lot of Artists are intrigued by the online market... it gives them the opportunity to bypass the greedy and often idiotic record labels...

    In time I think downloads will revolutionize the music industry in a very positive way...

  8. #58
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    ...

    There's no question in mind that a solid CD player can hold its own against these new higher resolution formats, and I suspect I would have to spend a lot of money to purchase any SACD player that could hold its own against the Naim CD Player (for what?)
    ...
    It might surprise you to learn that I agree that SACD is not significantly superior to really good CD recordings -- and given the level of equipment I've been able to listen to at length. Obviously a Naim to Oppo comparison is an invidious one and hardly a basis for dismissing SACD. On the other hand there are folks, like emaidel, who strongly insist that SACD is indeed superior.

    However I say that the greatest advantage of SACD is multi-channel, and I say this even though I listen mainly to stereo myself on account of the issues of cost and difficulty of set up.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    It might surprise you to learn that I agree that SACD is not significantly superior to really good CD recordings -- and given the level of equipment I've been able to listen to at length. Obviously a Naim to Oppo comparison is an invidious one and hardly a basis for dismissing SACD. On the other hand there are folks who strongly insist that SACD is indeed superior.
    Well if I need to spend $3,500 or more on an SACD player to outperform the Oppo in a showdown against my CD Player, I could certainly argue that this money would be far better spent on purchasing more music. For $3,500 I could purchase a full classical collection of over 200 CD's. Regardless, the vast majority of the consumer market would not spend more than $350 on a player, and for this money I can think of a number of audio solutions that will outperform an Oppo SACD player, not the least of which being a SqueezeBox, a stand-alone CD player such as a Marantz CD5001, or many turntables both new or used.

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  10. #60
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Sage
    ...

    But...if I was to use my computer as a music storage devise, if I was to upgrade my sound card and have the proper connection to my audiophile grade amplifier, how will the artists creations be transfered to my computer in all its fidelity? Do we have the mean to do so today? Where will I find this? What program do I need?
    ...

    Doc Sage
    There are many options. In my case play lossless FLAC or ALAC file using the Foobar2000 program on an WinXP computer with an internal M-Audio Revolution 7.1 sound card; the sound card feeds my external DAC via S/PDIF coax. Squeezebox is good option especially if you don't want your computer near you music system, and especially with quality external DAC. A good computer based system will equal or exceed virtually any CD player.

    I recommend dBpoweramp as an excellent program for ripping CDs to FLAC or virtually any other format including MP3.

  11. #61
    RGA
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    Underrated and overrated merely lies in your perception of the gear. If a movie is overhyped it often can't live up to the hype for most people and they may tend to view it "harder" than they otherwise would have going in "cold."

    Looks are of course subjective but many audiophiles can ignore the ugly ducklings if the sound is right.

    And we tend to feel something is overrated if we personally don't like the sound of the product. I don't like the sound of Bose - Bose is the biggest speaker seller in the world and has huge hype - my conclusion is that Bose is overrated as a seller though not in the review press. Some things that get good reviews I would disagree with either from a monetary price performance ratio perspective or because to me it's just not very good. I lean a little more to what the reviewers actually buy or what reviewers would consider a very close runner up - rather than reviewers I know who give good reviews to speakers that they themselves would not care to own. And ultimately that is the key - the review is a negative review unless the reviewer would actually BUY the speaker himself. Of course if he already owns a great product and another comes along but he can't afford it or it would not be practical to buy it that is something else. But plenty of well reviewed stuff is out there and if the reviewer had no stereo had the money and the space would NOT buy it then to me that is what is telling. Unfortunately, review readers do not get that information and so they are stuck in the astrology writing that can be affixed to any product.

    I personally find the Magnepan 20.1 to be overrated in the sense that it's a very large loudspeaker, is noted for working best with big power (read expensive amplification) the speaker is $14k and I'm left a little shocked at how anyone could walk away thinking they're great loudspeakers. (Guess who won't send me a product for evaluation?). But many people do in fact think they sound great - I think they may have been seduced by the looks, design, and price, over the actual substance but the point is it boils down to preferences and perceptions.

    Unfortunately, for some reason if you don't like something people will attack you.

    Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate. So if you say something, anything, bad about ONE speaker in an entire companies' line-up you get some fan of it blasting you. Say something bad about a different speaker and a new bunch of people get on your case.

    Not surprising most of the review industry is positive about everything. This similar thread was on another forum and people hated the looks of Shanling - I find them a bit tacky looking but in some ways kind of neat looking - I would not put it on my list of worst offenders for looks or sound relative to price by any means. And I doubt I would rule anything out on looks alone.

    I reviewed what I consider to be a sexy looking AND excellent sounding amplifier called the Rita from Grant Fidelity - one of my girlfriends felt it looked like an ugly microwave oven. hmmm. http://grantfidelity.com/site/

  12. #62
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    True enough

    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Well if I need to spend $3,500 or more on an SACD player to outperform the Oppo in a showdown against my CD Player, I could certainly argue that this money would be far better spent on purchasing more music. For $3,500 I could purchase a full classical collection of over 200 CD's. Regardless, the vast majority of the consumer market would not spend more than $350 on a player, and for this money I can think of a number of audio solutions that will outperform an Oppo SACD player, not the least of which being a SqueezeBox, a stand-alone CD player such as a Marantz CD5001, or many turntables both new or used.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    The larger majority of music purchases I make are still CD and this won't change because most of what I want isn't on SACD despite that I'm a classical listener. Furthermore my main system is stereo and I listen 90% to music ripped to computer so I'll concede that SACD doesn't look very relevant to me either.

    Nevertheless I will preferentially buy SACD where a suitable recording is available in the optimistic hope that someday I will be able upgrade my HT to an audiophile level. Right now the only machine with which I can listen to m/c SACD is ... an Oppo 980H ... for which the best that may be said is that it complements the rest of my current HT setup.

    I adhere to the two points I've already mentioned:
    1. Multi-channel provides a listening experience that can be closer to the live, concert hall experience that stereo possibly can, (though recordings that actually deliver this are the exception). SACD as a medium can deliver this, but so could DVD-A, and no doubt Blu-Ray has the potential.
    2. I believe the continued relative popularity of vinyl is a hinderance to audiophile acceptance of SACD or other, high resolution, multi-channel media that are -- by any rational test -- superior to it.

  13. #63
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I believe the continued relative popularity of vinyl is a hinderance to audiophile acceptance of SACD or other, high resolution, multi-channel media that are -- by any rational test -- superior to it.
    Suppose for a moment that the majority of audiophiles accepted SACD, we still don't reflect more than a small percentage of the overall market. And even so, every week when I visit my local retailers I am seeing less and less CD's on the shelf, so I think we can both agree that physical media is a dying medium overall. The market has spoken, but I can assure you we will still have a plethora of high resolution, multi-channel options available in the future, however they will be available for Internet download. As disk storage becomes cheaper and cheaper, we'll no longer be stuck to storage limitations on media such as CD or SACD, and I suspect we're likely to see even higher resolution options available than we've ever thought possible.

    And even though I'm not giving up my turntable, like other audiophiles we are all leaning towards streaming lossless audio, and I strongly suspect that as artists begin to release high-resolution downloads at a price premium, they will also offer 180-gram vinyl as a limited option, specifically geared towards audiophiles and to hardcore fans/collectors (in fact this is already happening). Could you agree that this gives us the best of both worlds, and in fact we both win?

    cheers,
    elapsed
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  14. #64
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Thanks loads...

    A special thanks to all who've commented on the whole SACD and music-puter side of this thread, you've all taught me a great deal and I thank you.

    Da Worfster

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    1. Multi-channel provides a listening experience that can be closer to the live, concert hall experience that stereo possibly can, (though recordings that actually deliver this are the exception). SACD as a medium can deliver this, but so could DVD-A, and no doubt Blu-Ray has the potential.
    1. If mastered properly...then yes...it can bring you closer to a live recording. But some are goofy. How many conceerts have you been too where the horn player is blasting away behind you?

      Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    2. I believe the continued relative popularity of vinyl is a hinderance to audiophile acceptance of SACD or other, high resolution, multi-channel media that are -- by any rational test -- superior to it.
This is just a silly statement. I buy and listen to SACD, DVD-A, CD and vinyl. They all have there good points..and bad points. But to say hi-rez digital is superior to vinyl is just plain inaccurate.

This statement is based on my experience with my ears. And my ears, and how they percieve the sound is what matters.

Cheers,
BT

  • #66
    RGA
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    I never understand the attacks on vinyl - some of the rigs I have heard havce no audible noise clicks pops or anything - a bigger breathey three dimensional presentation and I have heard no CD player or SACD machine that sounds as good as the better turntables. Interestingly some of the companies who are touted as making the best digital replay and who ALSO make some of the best turntables all seem to agree that their lower priced turntables beat their more expensive digital replay.

    That said vinyl suffers more disc to disc deviation and lower priced turntables are not as "perfect" as vinylphiles seem to indicate. UHF magazine noted that it took about a $2500 investment in vinyl replay (not including carts and arms) to really get into what vinyl is capable of. I don't quite agree on the number but I can see why people who go to a store and listen to a Rega, Pro-Ject, MMF, Clearaudio might not be convinced by the vinyl crowd that CD and SACD are bested.

    Bottom line is that there is no point in trying to convince people of turntable superiority or SACD or CD. You do the best to hear examples of what are considered to be the best of each and then decide. The mistake is to compare one at $450 another at $3,500 and another at $10k.

    Turnatables geta LOT better as you go up the price scales - SACD and CD improve but to a much lesser degree so much lesser that DBT debates are rampant.

    Then what speaker and amplifier phono stage was being used - cart, arm. Turntables are a big pain and some would rather not admit that as being a reason not to go vinyl so instead try to knock down the sound.

    Most people I read on forums who blast vinyl have not heard the best turntables or even what I would consider decent $4-5k turntables. They base their entire jugement on their dad's beat up Dual or a Rega P2.

    I have a NAD 533(Rega P2) and I can understand why digital guys are not wholly convinced or much convinced at all. The P2 with work can be brought up past some cd players IMO but it's not to a degree that all would share that opinion.

    SACD in every instance I have heard it has been a major let down - the surround ambiance is artificial to me. The surround tracks for me are ludicrous - butthe proponants in the home theater sector love it - but heck they like the dance and rock settings too - and good - so do I - they're fun. Not believable but fun counts!

  • #67
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    It is without rational explanation.
    Because vinyl offers an experience, not a convience. People also like the sound better. Most of today's CDs ae over compressed and offer less dynamic range than that of vinyl. Its not the fault of the medium. Its the fault of the loudness war.

  • #68
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    Alright, RGA watch knocking the P2. It may not be the LP-12 but it is significantly better than the typical or even best mass market brand. The P2 is what convinced me to keep my vinyl. Boy put a pen in someone's hand they really become a snob

    How'd we get from good ole gear bashing to format wars anyway?

  • #69
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    How'd we get from good ole gear bashing to format wars anyway?
    Okay Peabody, back to the original thread.. possibly the most overrated turntable of all time? The Linn LP12. But I still want one. With an Ekos SE, a Dynavector 20XL cart, a Naim Armageddon PSU and a Naim Superline phono stage. See that's the problem here, we're already around $15,000 on a bloody turntable and you could keep upgrading further if you wished to by upgrading the cart and adding a PSU to the Superline

    I'm almost certain one could do far better for a lot less money, but I'm still drawn to the damn thing. Problem is I'd never be happy with an entry-level Magik LP12, I'd just keep upgrading. I suspect I'm going to stick with my Planar 3, I honestly couldn't ask for more for the money

    cheers,
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  • #70
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    And one more thing.. most overrated guitarist of all time? Clapton. Yeah I said it.

    cheers,
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  • #71
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    Naim must make things sound odd, Clapton rules!!, most over rated guitarist is Jimmy Page

  • #72
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    I guess since my turntable didn't cost $4k it must not sound as good as I thought. I'm putting it on eBay this weekend.



    Clapton? What about Page?

  • #73
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    RGA, clicks and pops will always be there on vinyl, even when played on expensive equipment. They are not artifacts of the equipment, they are due to scratches, imperfections or dirt, dust, etc on the surface of the vinyl. Sure, better quality vinyl is less susceptible to surface noise, and it can be reduced by careful handling and cleaning, but it can never be eliminated.

    When one is comparing the quality of sound reproduction from a CD vs turntable setup, I believe that the comparison should be done at the same price point. ie: If one is looking at a lower priced CD setup, then the comparison should be done against a similarly priced turntable setup. Likewise at the high end.

    Perhaps vinyl does outperform CD at the high end, but for lower priced systems I would expect CD to be the better performer. It is ridiculous to try and compare a low priced CD player with a high priced turntable. Those sort of comparisons just aren't fair.
    All we are saying, is give peas a chance.

  • #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    And one more thing.. most overrated guitarist of all time? Clapton. Yeah I said it.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    Not on your life. I'd give the overrated label to Joe Satriani. Clapton is a terrific live performer, but the playing of Satriani is just completely lacking in soul. All he does is play fast. Totally boring after a few minutes.
    All we are saying, is give peas a chance.

  • #75
    RGA
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    Mr. P

    Hey I've been happy with my NAD 533/Rega P2 for years now - I was not knocking it but I can see why people who listen to these decks would still not be convinced by turntable superiority over digital replay. And most stores and even most supposed high end stores either do not carry vinyl rigs or if they do tend to carry entry level lines like Pro-Ject and Rega. I simply don't think the entry models from these guys will convince a lot of guys to trade their cd collection in. I prefer it to a lot of CD players at double and triple the money mind you but it doesn't really lay a beating on good cd replay.

    I heard Audio Note's TT3 (not the current one the one based on the Voyd Reference - they hired the head guy from Voyd) with a suped up cartridge and arm and to me was easily better than any top Sony, Wadia, Linn, Krell, Levinson, Audio Note SACD or CD combination I've heard.

    But like another poster said - pops and clicks are not completely gone (also not gone with most tube gear) and if one is not willing to put up with some level of noise floor then they probably won't go vinyl at all. But that TT3 turntable rig is miles and miles ahead of the likes of what most of the vinyl bashers have heard.

    That was my main point - if you want to convince the CD and SACD crowd that vinyl can be better it may be "fun" to argue that a $500 Rega will beat $10k CD and SACD players but a lot of folks like me don't buy it - I have such a turntable and it doesn't. The Voyd/TT3 does and does it resoundingly - and that is the kind of turntable that may convince some of those CD gurus. But if you say the $500 one does it and it really doesn't then they may not believe you the next time - or they will be less willing to spend the time to bother to try. So they will continue to believe that CD reigns supreme because after all the P2 didn't beat so nothing possibly could.

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