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  1. #76
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    A lot of this argument about which is better is very subjective. In the end it all comes down to individual perceptions. Some people will argue that vinyl has greater presence, depth, etc than CD. Well, under the right circumstances that may be true. For me, however, the issue of surface noise is a huge drawback of vinyl. It doesn't matter how good it sounds otherwise, if I suddenly hear a load POP in the middle of a piece of music that I am trying to enjoy. What's more, on a good system, I will hear that POP in high fidelity, with all its presence and depth! No doubt others will have different opinions, but surface noise is the killer for me.
    All we are saying, is give peas a chance.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brick Top
    How many conceerts have you been too where the horn player is blasting away behind you?
    Cheers,
    BT
    I'm with you on this one. It's the issue I've always had with multichannel audio.. If the main stage is in front of you, why would you want music blasting from side & rear

  3. #78
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    What I don't doubt

    Quote Originally Posted by Brick Top
    ...

    This is just a silly statement. I buy and listen to SACD, DVD-A, CD and vinyl. They all have there good points..and bad points. But to say hi-rez digital is superior to vinyl is just plain inaccurate.

    This statement is based on my experience with my ears. And my ears, and how they percieve the sound is what matters.

    Cheers,
    BT
    I don't doubt that vinylphiles prefer the sound of vinyl. Like all preferences it is legitimate and unassailable. There are differences in the reproduction chain as between LPs and CDs, etc. They begin in the studio at the mastering stage where the vinyl and digital masters are tweak by the engineer for the medium. In the case of LPs the process continues with the mechanical creation of final pressing on vinyl and ends under the listener's control with his choice of TT, tonearm, cartridge, and phono preamp. What emerges is what the vinyl lover perfers. Good.

    Now I suggest an experiment. In general terms the experiment would consist of (1) ripping the LP to digital, 16bit/44.1kHz (or in your case, Brick Top, to 24/96 since you listen to DVD-A); (2) burn the resulting file(s) to a CD-R (or DVD-R); (3) compare the result to the direct LP play. (Of course high quality digital components should be used at every stage.)

    This experiement was actually performed a few years ago by an AR member, (rb122 as I recall), who did (and likely still does) prefer vinyl. What he found was that while there was perhaps some minute degredation of sound having through the analog => digital => analog process, the CD-Rs he burned actually retained 100% of the character of the vinyl sound that he so much preferred.

    There is no inherent technical superiority of the vinyl medium, nor conversely inferiority of delivery digitally via CD, SACD, DVD-A, Blu-Ray, nor computer file at 16/44.1 or better. Retain your preference for LPs but admit that the vinyl reproduction process as whole is a euphonic filter.

  4. #79
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Who's being silly?

    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Quote Originally Posted by Brick Top
    If mastered properly...then yes...it can bring you closer to a live recording. But some are goofy. How many conceerts have you been too where the horn player is blasting away behind you?
    ...
    Cheers,
    BT
    I'm with you on this one. It's the issue I've always had with multichannel audio.. If the main stage is in front of you, why would you want music blasting from side & rear
    In that case, AA, you haven't heard any good M/C recordings.

    In good recordings you don't hear, "the music blasting from side & rear". (This is an ignorant or supercilious remark.) What you hear is the ambience of the concert venue.

  5. #80
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    Calling me names are you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    In that case, AA, you haven't heard any good M/C recordings.

    In good recordings you don't hear, "the music blasting from side & rear". (This is an ignorant or supercilious remark.) What you hear is the ambience of the concert venue.
    No I haven't indeed, in fact i've never once heard a single multi-channel recording. It's only an observation I had and to be honest I figured it would have to do with 'ambiance'.

  6. #81
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Apology

    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur


    No I haven't indeed, in fact i've never once heard a single multi-channel recording. It's only an observation I had and to be honest I figured it would have to do with 'ambiance'.
    Sorry, AA, sometimes I'm tactless.

    But you'll admit, perhaps, that without having heard any (good) M/C recordings ...

  7. #82
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    Believe me you're the wiser among us and you've got plenty of tact so please don't apologize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Sorry, AA, sometimes I'm tactless.

    But you'll admit, perhaps, that without having heard any (good) M/C recordings ...
    I've yet to hear one but I will do so as soon as I have the opportunity.

  8. #83
    Ajani
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    CD/SACD/Vinyl is not a productive debate.... All 3 formats are slowly moving towards either extinction or just being niche products for the collectors...

    I believe Vinyl will outlast both CD & SACD, for several reasons:

    1) Because it is much more fun for a collector..
    2) Unlike the other two, it is analog. CD & SACD can be more easily replaced by another digital method (music servers) without starting an analog vs digital debate...

    I used to like Vinyl up till I was a teenager (early nineties), because I liked the look of the big albums (oh and DJs still used vinyl)... That love for vinyl ended swiftly when a brand new LP of mine, slipped from it's sleeve and turned into little plastic pieces on the ground... I never bought another LP since...

  9. #84
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    The coup de grace

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    CD/SACD/Vinyl is not a productive debate.... All 3 formats are slowly moving towards either extinction or just being niche products for the collectors...

    I believe Vinyl will outlast both CD & SACD, for several reasons:

    1) Because it is much more fun for a collector..
    2) Unlike the other two, it is analog. CD & SACD can be more easily replaced by another digital method (music servers) without starting an analog vs digital debate...

    I used to like Vinyl up till I was a teenager (early nineties), because I liked the look of the big albums (oh and DJs still used vinyl)... That love for vinyl ended swiftly when a brand new LP of mine, slipped from it's sleeve and turned into little plastic pieces on the ground... I never bought another LP since...
    Good points there, Ajani. And I dare say LP will out last the others for exactly those reasons. I personally would be happy with m/c hi-rez downloads when that becomes a real option.

    What finally killed vinyl for me was when I smashed an expensive stylus the first day I had it install. In fact I've had no quarrel with CD sound since I got my Technics SL-P970 back in 1991; the Yamaha CD2 I'd had pervious since '84-'85 was a bit nasty
    ...

  10. #85
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Good points there, Ajani. And I dare say LP will out last the others for exactly those reasons. I personally would be happy with m/c hi-rez downloads when that becomes a real option.

    What finally killed vinyl for me was when I smashed an expensive stylus the first day I had it install. In fact I've had no quarrel with CD sound since I got my Technics SL-P970 back in 1991; the Yamaha CD2 I'd had pervious since '84-'85 was a bit nasty
    ...
    ohhhh... Technics... my first love.... I had an all Technics setup at the end of the nineties... Actually, I gave it to my parents when I moved out way way way back in 2004

    Technics may not have been an 'audiophile' brand, but I sure had some great times with that setup...

  11. #86
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I never understand the attacks on vinyl - some of the rigs I have heard havce no audible noise clicks pops or anything - a bigger breathey three dimensional presentation and I have heard no CD player or SACD machine that sounds as good as the better turntables. Interestingly some of the companies who are touted as making the best digital replay and who ALSO make some of the best turntables all seem to agree that their lower priced turntables beat their more expensive digital replay.

    That said vinyl suffers more disc to disc deviation and lower priced turntables are not as "perfect" as vinylphiles seem to indicate. UHF magazine noted that it took about a $2500 investment in vinyl replay (not including carts and arms) to really get into what vinyl is capable of. I don't quite agree on the number but I can see why people who go to a store and listen to a Rega, Pro-Ject, MMF, Clearaudio might not be convinced by the vinyl crowd that CD and SACD are bested.

    Bottom line is that there is no point in trying to convince people of turntable superiority or SACD or CD. You do the best to hear examples of what are considered to be the best of each and then decide. The mistake is to compare one at $450 another at $3,500 and another at $10k.

    Turnatables geta LOT better as you go up the price scales - SACD and CD improve but to a much lesser degree so much lesser that DBT debates are rampant.

    Then what speaker and amplifier phono stage was being used - cart, arm. Turntables are a big pain and some would rather not admit that as being a reason not to go vinyl so instead try to knock down the sound.

    Most people I read on forums who blast vinyl have not heard the best turntables or even what I would consider decent $4-5k turntables. They base their entire jugement on their dad's beat up Dual or a Rega P2.

    I have a NAD 533(Rega P2) and I can understand why digital guys are not wholly convinced or much convinced at all. The P2 with work can be brought up past some cd players IMO but it's not to a degree that all would share that opinion.

    SACD in every instance I have heard it has been a major let down - the surround ambiance is artificial to me. The surround tracks for me are ludicrous - butthe proponants in the home theater sector love it - but heck they like the dance and rock settings too - and good - so do I - they're fun. Not believable but fun counts!
    Sorry to hear that. I love SACD. Why? Heres why. I have a remastered SACD of Sonny Clarks 1950's "Cool Struttin"...Sonny Clark on piano, Paul Chambers on bass, Phili Joe Jones on drums, Jackie Maclean on alto sax, and Art Farmer on trumpet. The album and CD does not even come close to the sound and clarity of the SACD. I can get better sound from some of the old Jazz recordings of the 50's and 60's on SACD rather than CD. Even some of the original albums I had of old jazz sound much better on SACD.

    frenchmon

  12. #87
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    And one more thing.. most overrated guitarist of all time? Clapton. Yeah I said it.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    While he is not the best guitarist, he is no slouch! You must be smoking something. I love his Robert Johnson stuff.

    frenchmon

  13. #88
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Smashing a stylus

    Speaking of smashing a stylus...How durable is a sylus? Suppose you drop it on the deck surface, rather than vinyl? Maybe that surface is aluminum, wood, hammertone, piano black. If the stylus bounces a time or two on those surfaces would it harm the stylus?

  14. #89
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Speaking of smashing a stylus...How durable is a sylus? ... If the stylus bounces a time or two on those surfaces would it harm the stylus?
    Bounces? Good question. I have, however, hosed the stylus on a $500 moving coil cartridge before in two seconds flat. I inadvertently bent the boron cantilever beyond repair. During my move to AR two years ago, somehow the cantilever on a Dynavector DV20 similarly got bent. This while I had the plastic guard on it.

    Really good arms and cartridges are delicate in a way that electronics are not.

    rw

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    ...........I love his Robert Johnson stuff.

    frenchmon
    Mr. RJ probably had the most influence of anybody on EC's style(s). Love his "Money & Cigarettes" and "Me & Mr.Johnson" albums, especially on LP.

    There's a greenie for ya.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  16. #91
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues
    Mr. RJ probably had the most influence of anybody on EC's style(s). Love his "Money & Cigarettes" and "Me & Mr.Johnson" albums, especially on LP.

    There's a greenie for ya.
    Whattup LDB, good to see you around.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Whattup LDB, good to see you around.

    Just took me awhile to find a proctologist(sp?) to remove my head from up my a$$. I've been around a bit just incognito that's all.

    Lately I've been sorting thru my digital collection on my computer (5K+ songs) and cherry pickin' all the great SQ tunes and setting PB levels, tags etc. I don't like the way my Media Player handles this. So my friend this, as you can imagine, takes a bit of time.

    I have my TV set up as my second monitor so I do most of my surfin' where the stereo rig is set up (living rm) and I only have a wireless mouse (so no typy from there), got to get me a wireless keyboard soon.

    Thanks for askin' and yourself, how's da life? Noticed you haven't been posting with your regular vigor lately.

    ciao,

    LDB
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  18. #93
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Underrated and overrated merely lies in your perception of the gear. If a movie is overhyped it often can't live up to the hype for most people and they may tend to view it "harder" than they otherwise would have going in "cold."
    I tend to agree with this and a few other things included in RGA's post...though I suspect I come to it from a completely different angle. I am, after all, not much of an audiophile.

    First, my experience leads me to lean more toward system matching and total-system thinking including the room. Rarely do I focus on one piece of equipment in a vacuum, or to say more accurately, rarely do I judge a piece of equipment from an experience at a dealership. The real meat and potatoes isn't revealed until I get it home to see how it measures in a controlled environment.

    Also it needs to be said that for this hobbyist stark sterility is not the order of the day. I'll take my tunes on the warm side, thank you very much. Now that doesn't mean I'm lobbying for ridiculous bass-humps or unnecessarily over-emphasized mids but I really don't care to live in an anechoic chamber or hear my huge collection of poorly recorded music sound as poorly recorded as it really is.

    At the end of the day I just like music.

    Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't some unconscionably overpriced equipment out there. I found the Verity Parsifal to be the least exciting speaker I'd ever heard regardless of price. And the Nautilus isn't much of a deal when the big Dane can be had for six K less...

    ...but to each his own which is, after all, part of the hobby.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  19. #94
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues

    Thanks for askin' and yourself, how's da life? Noticed you haven't been posting with your regular vigor lately.

    ciao,

    LDB
    Life's good buddy, just busy. The seasonal weather changes always bring about a busy time and the coming onset of a Democratic Administration and the resulting policy shifts seem to require a rather endless series of meetings, planning sessions, strategizing, etc.

    I've a vacation planned for January (one of four during 2009) and I'm looking forward to reacquainting myself with the irg and the tunes...may take a road trip to see an AR friend or two.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  20. #95
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    If you were to combine a SqueezeBox with an outboard DAC, all the while streaming FLAC, you'd end up with an outstanding system that will rival many of the best CD players on the market.
    I plan on exploring this in 2009...much to the chagrin of the cats that manufacture the 3k CDPs that I find unattractive and unnecessary.

    See how I did that.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  21. #96
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Bounces? Good question. I have, however, hosed the stylus on a $500 moving coil cartridge before in two seconds flat. I inadvertently bent the boron cantilever beyond repair. During my move to AR two years ago, somehow the cantilever on a Dynavector DV20 similarly got bent. This while I had the plastic guard on it.

    Really good arms and cartridges are delicate in a way that electronics are not.

    rw

    I've been known to have a glass of wine or two while spinning my vinyl. I'd hate to miss the mark when placing or returning the arm if it could do harm.

  22. #97
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    If you have an album that has not been abused the noise is not an issue on LP. I do get a bit of surface noise between tracks but I've been told the noise is less on other brands of cartridges.

    As I stated on another thread where this analog vs digital came up, the accurate comparison is simply impossible. There are too many variables in gear and set up of peoples systems. Not to mention sound variations between brands of CD players, and turntables, in one show down vinyl could win, in another with different components digital might win. All this shows is a certain CD player when hooked to a certain chain of components in someone's opinion sounds better in that room and in another situation the turntable could win.

    I didn't say the P2 could take on a $10k CD player, but it is certainly a better than average turntable. Most people don't own $10k CD players, in fact, the majority of the people on this board have digital playback under $1k. The P2 would sound better than that. You're arguing actually with hard drive users. A few members have recently been convinced by purchases they have made but a while back most thought spending money on a better CD player was foolish, so the fact that discussion of digital vs vinyl still goes on here is rather amusing.

  23. #98
    3db
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    Let me get this straight. You are arguing that being a clutz is a good reason not getting into vinyl? HMMMM.. Off all the arguements thats the worst I've ever heard.

    Vinyl will live on for eternity. When done properly, it sounds good, smells good and just plain looks good.

  24. #99
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    Let me state that I use both turntable and CD, I am not a hard line on which is better because truth be if I had to give one up I couldn't choose. I like both. For convenience the CD player definitely wins. For Classical the CD wins. Those who have a problem with vinyl noise have a point, in Classical, silence is supposed to be silence.

    Frenchmon, I don't know about SACD but it has been my experience that older albums, especially, pre 70's, tend to sound better on vinyl. I don't know what happens in the transfer, maybe it has something to do with the older recording equipment. I know this young guy who likes Dean Martin, I thought I'd be nice and offer to play one the guys CD's on my system. It was very bad and I was sorry I asked. Picked up some Dean on vinyl at a thrift store and not bad at all. There have been many other older CD vs. vinyl titles I've been able to hear and I'm voting vinyl on this one. I don't see how SACD transfer process could be better in this respect than what they do with CD. Mono recordings are so bad on CD I don't see why they bother with the transfer.

    I've also read a lot of bad press about these upsampling CD players, reviewers tend to like the 44.1k to remain that way opposed to upsampling it. I'm sure if a recording was 24/96 to begin with it should transfer to a SACD better. With that being said, I bet as in video, there's upsampling and then there's upsampling.

  25. #100
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Bounces? Good question. I have, however, hosed the stylus on a $500 moving coil cartridge before in two seconds flat. I inadvertently bent the boron cantilever beyond repair. During my move to AR two years ago, somehow the cantilever on a Dynavector DV20 similarly got bent. This while I had the plastic guard on it.

    Really good arms and cartridges are delicate in a way that electronics are not.
    I had a similar accident with my Dynavector 10x5 early this year, not a pleasant experience.. The 20XL will likely be my next cart, what rig do you presently own?

    cheers,
    elapsed
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