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  1. #1
    AR Member JeffKnob's Avatar
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    SACD and DVD-A dead, are CD's it?

    With SACD's and DVD-Audio dead are CD's going to be the best we can get? When SACD's and DVD-A's out years ago I was excited that we would be able to get higher resolution audio. Are CD's going to be the highest we are going to get? Is there anything in the works using maybe Blurays?
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  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffKnob
    With SACD's and DVD-Audio dead are CD's going to be the best we can get? When SACD's and DVD-A's out years ago I was excited that we would be able to get higher resolution audio. Are CD's going to be the highest we are going to get? Is there anything in the works using maybe Blurays?
    Well, SACD isn't entirely dead if you like classical music, but otherwise for sure. And of course DVD-A is totally kaput.

    Blu-Ray works great for music, but were are the recordings? There are some but not many and I doubt that many are forthcoming. Looks like download is the most likely source of hi-rez but there aren't many of these either.

    Let's face it: the audiophile market is a small niche and the content purveyors have been distracted by vinyl, i.e. for some reason they feel this is all the audiophiles want.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular harley .guy07's Avatar
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    I have heard of companies doing research using file formats based on the blue ray audio setup but I have not heard much about the mass market accepting it. I think a lot of the problem is that fact that cd has been out for so long and is cheap and easy to produce and most people if they are not getting their music by downloading it are totally fine with CD's quality. If more people could ot took the time to hear and know the difference between formats and request higher definition in there audio it might happen but then with downloaded music being the most popular music media today I would think they would put more time into high def downloads and not high def disks even though I do both and there are times when I still prefer disk media because it just has a more real feel to it. It really think that a blue ray type high def format might come out in music direct catalogs and the such but I don't think that you will see them at wal mart any time soon.

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  4. #4
    AR Member JeffKnob's Avatar
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    I was thinking that bluray would be the easiest way to bring something to the market as it already supports the highres. I think part of the problem with SACD or DVD-A is that specific players needed to be bought and they were more expensive than most people would want to spend to make the transition. If they could do one side as a regular CD for people to use in their cars or regular player and then a bluray side for the bigger systems, it could see more adoption. Of course this is all dependant on the studios starting with good recordings that will even take advantage of the higher resolution.
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  5. #5
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffKnob
    With SACD's and DVD-Audio dead are CD's going to be the best we can get?
    I agree SACD's and DVD-A are dead formats so being the green eco-friendly person that I am I encourage all AR members here to please send me your SACD's and DVD-A discs rather than let them clutter up some landfill somewhere. While you are at it please send me any cassettes and laserdiscs you also may have lying around. I will make sure all materials sent to me are properly disposed of..........

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekid
    I agree SACD's and DVD-A are dead formats so being the green eco-friendly person that I am I encourage all AR members here to please send me your SACD's and DVD-A discs rather than let them clutter up some landfill somewhere. While you are at it please send me any cassettes and laserdiscs you also may have lying around. I will make sure all materials sent to me are properly disposed of..........

    Yer just a little too late..I just gave away 'bout 100 cassettes (Chrome & Metal) to the coworker I sold my HK deck to.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekid
    I agree SACD's and DVD-A are dead formats so being the green eco-friendly person that I am I encourage all AR members here to please send me your SACD's and DVD-A discs rather than let them clutter up some landfill somewhere. While you are at it please send me any cassettes and laserdiscs you also may have lying around. I will make sure all materials sent to me are properly disposed of..........
    DARN! And I TOSSED all of my laserdisc, would have been glad to helicopter the
    several tons worth over to your house and dump it ON THE ROOF.
    Tell ya what, I wasnt dumb enough to try Selectavision (needlevision), but a friend was.
    Look for four or five crates to be heading your way, along with six thousand copies of
    Learning Mandarin the easy way on long playing records, about fifty records to a
    copy.
    AND theres those ten thousand Hungarian opera 78's that uncle Julius left me...
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  8. #8
    I put the Gee in Gear.... thekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    DARN! And I TOSSED all of my laserdisc, would have been glad to helicopter the
    several tons worth over to your house and dump it ON THE ROOF.
    Tell ya what, I wasnt dumb enough to try Selectavision (needlevision), but a friend was.
    Look for four or five crates to be heading your way, along with six thousand copies of
    Learning Mandarin the easy way on long playing records, about fifty records to a
    copy.
    AND theres those ten thousand Hungarian opera 78's that uncle Julius left me...
    Thanks Pix!
    I will look for the truck rolling up the street.
    Soon I will be able to order my take out just like the pros.......

    Have a Happy T-Day!

  9. #9
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    SACD is far from dead. I have twice as many titles to choose from now than I did a few years ago.

    I can see how those who don't care for jazz or classical might think it's dead.

    By the way, I hear there's a new format on the horizon. Something called reel to reel?

  10. #10
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    SACD is far from dead. I have twice as many titles to choose from now than I did a few years ago.

    I can see how those who don't care for jazz or classical might think it's dead.

    By the way, I hear there's a new format on the horizon. Something called reel to reel?
    You're right re. SACD.

    Reel to reel? Pull-ease. I gave up on that in 1974.

  11. #11
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I am scratching my head on the comments on Bluray and audio. There are plenty of Bluray high resolution recordings out there...plenty of them. I own over a hundred, and my collection is growing weekly. Some have video, some don't. If you don't like the video, shut off your monitor after starting up the recording. I do that usually after the first view. All of these recordings are true high resolution recording, defiantly better than anything I have heard on DVD-A, and at least equaling or besting most recordings on SACD(at least from a technical basis).

    While SACD isn't quite dead, it is an unsupported format abandon by Sony. Sony is no longer supporting the format with upgrades and improvements, so the only thing keeping the format alive now is a trickle of recordings that simulate the last breath of a dying human. DVD-A is gone. CD is on its way out as well, and downloads are replacing it very quickly.

    Right now, the future of high resolution music lies in downloads and Bluray disc. I use both, but I prefer Bluray's because they sound better than the downloads I have. More and more music is coming out on Bluray, and I think when the music industry stabilizes(which may take a while), the record companies will take a long look at Bluray, and probably begin to put more music on the format. Once we get out of this recession(and yes we are still in one), things will stabilize, and we will begin to see where the industry is going. Right now the entire music industry is just flailing in the wind, and seeming almost direction less in their actions. While Itunes is cool, I think it is basically killing the concept of an album.
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  12. #12
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I am scratching my head on the comments on Bluray and audio. There are plenty of Bluray high resolution recordings out there...plenty of them. ....
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "plenty".

    So at my favorite classical recordings source, ArkivMusic, has 10's of thousands of CD titles, over 4400 DVD (some of which are actually Blu-ray), over 3000 SACD titles, and ... how many Blu-Ray per se?? It's hard to tell: Arkiv doesn't even have an easy way to search for them. However I finally discovered they have 207 Blu-ray or which virtually all are opera videos, (not that there's anything wrong with opera videos).

    Same story at other classical recordings sites, e.g. MDT lists 207 Blu-rays, but again, almost all are opera videos. Crotchet, another UK classical vendor, lists 211 Blu-ray, almost all opera videos. Presto Classical 205 Blu-ray offering, but again almost all are opera videos or live concert videos.
    Last edited by Feanor; 11-25-2010 at 10:00 AM.

  13. #13
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    I'm not dead yet

    I have only a handful of SACD's but they sound sooo good. It is a real shame the format did not take off. DVD-A is even more strange my lexus plays them but I don't have any of the disks. I can play some SACD's in the car but it must be playing the CD layer which some SACD disks have.

    What I do not understand is in the car the SACD disk (Dire Straits BIA) still sounds sooo good but it cannot be playing SACD as it is a DVD-A player. so how does is sound so much better than all my other disks if it only playing the CD layer.

    also I am getting a new bluray and will want a universal player for SACD just to have it most likely it will be the new Oppo

    thanks for any comments

  14. #14
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekid
    I agree SACD's and DVD-A are dead formats so being the green eco-friendly person that I am I encourage all AR members here to please send me your SACD's and DVD-A discs rather than let them clutter up some landfill somewhere. While you are at it please send me any cassettes and laserdiscs you also may have lying around. I will make sure all materials sent to me are properly disposed of..........
    You said it before I could. Being quick on the draw is probably how you find such great deals.

    With that said, please send me half of your old LP's, SACD's, DVD-A's, LD's, Cassettes, RtR's etc. Send the other half to thekid. He did ask first.

    I'll pay the shipping for anything I receive.
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  15. #15
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lomarica
    I have only a handful of SACD's but they sound sooo good. It is a real shame the format did not take off. DVD-A is even more strange my lexus plays them but I don't have any of the disks. I can play some SACD's in the car but it must be playing the CD layer which some SACD disks have.

    What I do not understand is in the car the SACD disk (Dire Straits BIA) still sounds sooo good but it cannot be playing SACD as it is a DVD-A player. so how does is sound so much better than all my other disks if it only playing the CD layer.

    also I am getting a new bluray and will want a universal player for SACD just to have it most likely it will be the new Oppo

    thanks for any comments
    Have you tried both layers on your home (?) system? If so, have you noticed the same differences? I have heard that the 44/16 track on many hybrid SACD's is the SACD mix processed to 2x44/16. That would make them different from the regular CD.
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  16. #16
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    its a HYBRID sacd/cd with readable layers for each format. its possible that when it was remastered for sacd that the new remix (which doesnt always guarantee improved sound) is responsible for that pleasantry. another possibility may be that DVDA players upsample like some sacd players which truly does improve sound.

    do you have the old BIA cd for comparison?

    i think STT will agree that part of the prob with sacd was the lack of readily available mixing/editing equipment that handled DSD sources. i think its a travesty that sony did not support the format by releasing ALL titles in hybrid format so retailers wouldnt have a problem selling their inventories.

    because of that, i was able to score the billie holliday sacd 'lady in satin' for $5 at the now defunct Wherehouse record store on devonshire and balboa. as a non hybrid sacd, it could not be played on a regular cdp and probably returned for that reason.

    i supported sacd right from the start and didnt mind paying about $14 for one new which was the list price for most CDs which in my opinion have never been worth that inflated price. the artist's share went down with the advent of cd and the temporary wane in the LP. the cost of production went down which put more dollars in the pockets of the record companies and less where it belonged-in the pockets of the artist.

    i felt that the improved sound was worth that much but sony didnt support the format as well as some of us consumers. well, CRAP!

    now i also bemoan the death of dvda but only so many formats can exist as evidenced by the fate of the quad format war. wont the manufacturers ever learn?
    ...regards...tr

  17. #17
    music whore Happy Camper's Avatar
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    We need to stay with one format long enough for the mainstream customer to re-build their libraries but it won't happen. I'm not going to chase wishes and theories. CD works for me and I'm not going to spend to change out for another format. Last time was LP to CD. While that debate continues we have went from digital generation CD, DVD, SACD/DVD-A, Blu Ray in less time than it took to get to stereo from mono.

    The industry could build some good will by crediting old formats when buying the new but won't. Imagine what's going to happen to everyone who pony'ed up for multi thousand dollar DACs to be obsoleted by Blu Ray.

    If well miked, mixed and recorded, CD can be remarkably good and the lack of genre in the newer formats just loses the spender with the resources to buy.

    Vinyl was the only format mature enough to develop fully and keeps the purist loyal today.

    IMO
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  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffKnob
    With SACD's and DVD-Audio dead are CD's going to be the best we can get? When SACD's and DVD-A's out years ago I was excited that we would be able to get higher resolution audio. Are CD's going to be the highest we are going to get? Is there anything in the works using maybe Blurays?
    Actually, for stereo I'm fine with CD.

    Yeah, it's true. Now that I'm old and deaf (above 10kHz), I really can't hear, (or don't care about, which amounts to the same thing), the difference between a well-produced & engineered CD and an SACD. And LPs are people who prefer a particular sort of euphonic filtering over accuracy.

    So while the typical SACD sounds better than a typical CD, (in stereo), I attribute that to greater care in the engineering process, not from the actual medium of distribution. I say this after due comparisons of the CD to the SACD stereo layers of hybrid discs. Of course, the are many fantasically good-sounding CDs without SACD versions.

    What CD lacks only, IMO, the ability to deliver multi-channel. Let me assert that M/C can do what stereo simply cannot, assuming good record production and a good system to play it on. But then obviously Blu-ray can deliver this as well or better than SACD.

    But I'm not hoping that Blu-ray replaces CD -- not, at least, unless I can a rip digital copy from the Blu-ray disc. Currently downloads are not a satisfactory alternative, in as much as the selection of CD-or-better resolution files is far too limited.

  19. #19
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "plenty".

    So at my favorite classical recordings source, ArkivMusic, has 10's of thousands of CD titles, over 4400 DVD (some of which are actually Blu-ray), over 3000 SACD titles, and ... how many Blu-Ray per se?? It's hard to tell: Arkiv doesn't even have an easy way to search for them. However I finally discovered they have 207 Blu-ray or which virtually all are opera videos, (not that there's anything wrong with opera videos).

    Same story at other classical recordings sites, e.g. MDT lists 207 Blu-rays, but again, almost all are opera videos. Crotchet, another UK classical vendor, lists 211 Blu-ray, almost all opera videos. Presto Classical 205 Blu-ray offering, but again almost all are opera videos or live concert videos.
    I understand where you are coming from, but remember, the Bluray format is just 4 years old. Just like it took time for titles to come out on CD and DVD, it will take time for titles to come out on Bluray. With Bluray spec's being what it is, we have the opportunity to enjoy music at a far higher level(and I mean FAR), than CD and DVD can deliver. If there are folks out there that really love music, this is the format that would get them closer to reality than we have ever heard.

    The DXD to Bluray audio recordings I have done in the past, have been absolutely marvelous to the ears. For those of us that have had that audio quality taste, going back to CD just cannot, and will not do it.

    As far as ripping is concerned, I am with copy protection on this one. Now that we have seen the devistation of the CD and DVD format behind ripping, it becomes impossible for any digital format to get to a point of maturity that LP has gotten to. Once you can rip it, then the freebie thought process just overwhelms the legit thought process. Let's face it, what we can get for free, we don't want to pay for.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 11-25-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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  20. #20
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    i think STT will agree that part of the prob with sacd was the lack of readily available mixing/editing equipment that handled DSD sources. i think its a travesty that sony did not support the format by releasing ALL titles in hybrid format so retailers wouldnt have a problem selling their inventories.
    I agree with you totally. As a person who invested heavily in SACD(DSD encoders and decoders, extremely high quality production/recording suite), Sony never provided editing and eq for the format in DSD. This meant that we had to convert our DSD stream to PCM to do all of these tasks, and that degraded the quality and resolution of the audio. Then you have to convert the degraded stream back to DSD, which was a major bummer IMO. Now to be sure, the degradation was slight, but I heard it, and it bothered me.

    It also would have been helpful for Sony to provide bass management, delay and, and speaker balancing in DSD as well, to maintain the DSD stream's purity through the analog conversion in the player.

    While I commend Sony for bringing the format to the public, I give them a "F" for their effort in both the post production, and consumer implementation.
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  21. #21
    Mutant from table 9
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    Since nobody has put dibs on minidisc and 8 track, go ahead and send me those.
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  22. #22
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    ....
    It also would have been helpful for Sony to provide bass management, delay and, and speaker balancing in DSD as well, to maintain the DSD stream's purity through the analog conversion in the player.
    ....
    Of course, none of this is a problem for Blu-ray. The Audyssey processing on my modest Onkyo receiver has impressed me a whole lot.

    Unfortunately my Panasonic BRP doesn't play SACD, (nor does the Onkyo handle DSD). I'd be fine, though, if the player or the receiver converted the DSD directly to PCM to permit subsequent DSP -- rather this than omit the EQ and delay.

  23. #23
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffKnob
    With SACD's and DVD-Audio dead are CD's going to be the best we can get?

    Well, there is still vinyl...

    *puts on flamesuit*

    but honestly, IMO, vinyl still offers the best resolution & sound quality, but I guess not everyone agrees on that...

    and SACD is definitely with one foot in it's grave already, DVD-A has been put under the ground a long time ago.
    so that leaves us with Blu-Ray audio discs...
    not much going to happen there, it's doomed to end the same as DVD-A, and it's much to expensive. ESPECIALLY compared to the "new rising master", streaming, or media servers, things with hard disk drives in them... "not stuck to a medium".

    so to answer your question: CD's are on their way out too. Leaving you with PC stuff...


    ...and vinyl...

    Keep them spinning,
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    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    I think the music industry is going down...

  25. #25
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basite
    Well, there is still vinyl...

    *puts on flamesuit*

    but honestly, IMO, vinyl still offers the best resolution & sound quality, but I guess not everyone agrees on that...

    and SACD is definitely with one foot in it's grave already, DVD-A has been put under the ground a long time ago.
    so that leaves us with Blu-Ray audio discs...
    not much going to happen there, it's doomed to end the same as DVD-A, and it's much to expensive. ESPECIALLY compared to the "new rising master", streaming, or media servers, things with hard disk drives in them... "not stuck to a medium".

    so to answer your question: CD's are on their way out too. Leaving you with PC stuff...


    ...and vinyl...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Bert,
    So much is going on with Bluray disc music, it is off your radar, and has no chance of following in the footsteps of DVD-A. There is FAR too much support for that to happen.

    Streaming is doing well, but not for high resolution music. You are overselling vinyl, that is for sure. Many of us have turned the page on that medium, and there is no chance of us going back. Digital is here to stay for the masses, and vinyl will remain a niche.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

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