Visited our new audio shop today

[Mr Peabody]

http://www.stlouisstereo.com/
I got to hear a few products I haven't before.

First a pair of the Kudos driven by a Naim 50 watt integrated and CDP, both Naim units $1595.00 each and I thought a good deal for the money. I hadn't heard Naim in a while but they still are doing good things. The Kudos were good as well but didn't listen long to them. Just getting started, you know

Next, the Harbeth, C7 I believe, driven by a Leben tube integrated with Resolution CDP. I could probably criticize the Harbeth but the bottomline I found them terribly seductive and rich with harmonic tone. They also exhibited a solid bottom end, sound stage a bit back from the listening plane, and a better than average sense of front to back spacial info with musician placement. Frenchmon noted he thought the Harbeth's high end may not have been as extended but I didn't notice, I think I was captivated by other aspects of what I was hearing. The Leben was a 30 watt tube integrated which I thought sounded very good, no tube stereotype negatives, the bass very detailed etc but this unit was nearly $5500.00 and I did not feel the amp was, that, good. In fact, the 40 watt Octave Audio I thought expensive at $4k but the OA is a superior sounding unit in my opinion. I can't say much about the CDP as I really didn't have a good comparison with anything else in the same system.

Then, we hooked up a set of DeVore to compare to the Harbeth. Boy, opposites. I didn't much like the DeVore, finding them a bit unbalanced with a lack of low end. Frenchmon liked them a lot. The DeVore had a more forward sound and vibrant midrange. We were thinking maybe the Harbeth lacked some detail in comparison. The DeVore we heard was over $1k more expensive than the Harbeth. Interestingly the Harbeth is voiced to keep the grill on and the sales consultant said they could be removed but with great difficulty.

Then back to the Naim system but hooked to a set of Totem Hawks. He bi-wired them. I didn't ask but asumed they must have found an advantage to that. At $2800.00 a pair, I was impressed by what I was hearing from the Hawks. A big sound from a 2-way with such a small footprint. And, he hooked up a Hans (not sure if spelled correctly) turntable with a Dynavector cartridge in the same system. With that TT as the source I was in aw of what I was hearing from this fairly modest system. The Hawks really delivered, excellent sound stage, and frequency response. I definitely plan to try the Dynavector 10 in the future on my rig. The turntable was around $1700.00 without cart, it put on quite a show.

This is lengthy but one other very noteworthy observation. While listening to the Harbeth they were sitting on a name brand stand, but for the life of me I can't think of it, in the middle of things he replaced the stands with another brand. I didn't expect to really hear any difference but Frenchmon and I were both caught off guard by the improvement we heard, which was quite noticeable. So maybe you monitor guys knew this and if you didn't we both learned something, stands are important to sound quality. Geez, another link to worry about

Needless to say a very enjoyable afternoon.

[JoeE SP9]

C'mon Mr. P! You know everything is important to sound quality. That store "sounds" like a nice place to visit and patronize.

[frenchmon]

C'mon Mr. P! You know everything is important to sound quality. That store "sounds" like a nice place to visit and patronize.

Well...yes but those Harberth Compact 7ES-3 speakers in my opinion would have still lacked the upper end detail no matter where you put them....I would say they are made with a warm tweeter. Probably good with a really bright amp. We played Vanessa Williams latest CD and I know that CD like the back of my hand and the upper detail thats on in....the Harbeth lacked in that department. And the Devore which had the detail would not have produced more bass in my home. I thought the Kudos lacked separation. I have already talked to someone who heard those before I did and they really did not like them as well. Now the Totem Hawks are a different story....while they did sound a bit sterile to me they where really 3d speakers...well balanced with a great sound stage....and that TT, the Hanss-T-10 with the Dynavector CART was the stuff....not bad for $1700.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

Well Frenchie we differ on the type of sound we like but we definitely have common ground with the Hawk and Hanss. The Hanss made that Naim system sound much more expensive than it was, and credit due the Hawk for being able to deliver that quality. I'd like to get a copy of that Jazz LP, that would be a demo for sure, excellent. And, that part where the sax moved back and forth blew me away. If all Totem are that good for the money I have to wonder why they aren't more widely shown or known.

[LeRoy]

Sounds like a fun day was had while on Audio touring duty.

I've heard the Kudos and Devore with Naim, Leben, and Rega products.
The Devore needs way more power than 50 watts to get their best and unfortunately there were no powerful amps in the shop I was at so the Devore Gibbon 8's were underperforming with the systems I heard.

I do agree with your assessment of the Leben. I suppose its just a matter of finding other electronics and speakers that match up with it but so far I remain unimpressed with the Leben.

The Naim equipment always is a treat to listen to and if you get a chance to connect up a pair of Ref 3A to some Naim...I think you'd like that pairing.

The Kudos have a really great synergistic match with Rega. The Kudos really come to life with a Rega Brio 3 and Rega Apollo CDP. However, the Kudos mid bass hump is readily and easily exposed when pushed a little hard...even the RB3 could overwhelm them-- but the Kudos played to their limits in the Rega system was a lively and exciting listen.

I've yet to hear a Totem speaker I like but I give them credit for their trademark soundstage excellence. That they do have!


Take care and TTYL.

LeRoy

[Mr Peabody]

I'm glad you mentioned the Leben which reminded me of some info I found today. They are supposed to use some innovative circuitry which is suppsed to deliver a fantastic sound I didn't pick up on, they are also auto bias and easy to tube roll, they have a bass boost,
3 or 6 dB, this caught my attention because I didn't know about it and wonder if it was engaged, the boost is unique that it is some how done inside the negative feedback loop.

[JoeE SP9]

Well...yes but those Harberth Compact 7ES-3 speakers in my opinion would have still lacked the upper end detail no matter where you put them....I would say they are made with a warm tweeter. Probably good with a really bright amp. We played Vanessa Williams latest CD and I know that CD like the back of my hand and the upper detail thats on in....the Harbeth lacked in that department. And the Devore which had the detail would not have produced more bass in my home. I thought the Kudos lacked separation. I have already talked to someone who heard those before I did and they really did not like them as well. Now the Totem Hawks are a different story....while they did sound a bit sterile to me they where really 3d speakers...well balanced with a great sound stage....and that TT, the Hanss-T-10 with the Dynavector CART was the stuff....not bad for $1700.

frenchmon

I was really talking about the stands making a difference. That's been my experience also. Filling a stand with sand and lead shot (if possible) will make a decent stand even better.

[Mr Peabody]

The Harbeths started out on Skylan stands. The stands that made the improvement looked like an acrylic platform with chrome metal leg array. They certainly didn't look like they'd make much difference. Can you believe they wanted $695.00 a pair for those?

A bit of info on the Harbeth, they use a thinner cabinet wall with some heavy internal damping. They say they want the sides to move like a musical instrument. They claim the hand assembly of the complex cabinet is part of the reason the Harbeth cost so much.

[eisforelectronic]

Hawks are a true standout, particularly at their price point.

[frenchmon]

I was really talking about the stands making a difference. That's been my experience also. Filling a stand with sand and lead shot (if possible) will make a decent stand even better.

Oh...sorry. I have some cat litter to fill my stands with, and have been meaning to fill them but just have not got around to it as of yet.

[JoeE SP9]

As long as the litter is clean it's OK. I'm getting a kitten this month. You're welcome to all my spare litter.
I'll be using some tomorrow morning after I shovel the latest snowfall. It's coming down at this moment.

[frenchmon]

As long as the litter is clean it's OK. I'm getting a kitten this month. You're welcome to all my spare litter.
I'll be using some tomorrow morning after I shovel the latest snowfall. It's coming down at this moment.

Naw....you can keep it. I have one bag that will take care of my two stands. IF I have any left over, I can send it to you seeing you are getting a kitten....its clean seeing I dont have a cat.

[Ajani]

As long as the litter is clean it's OK. I'm getting a kitten this month. You're welcome to all my spare litter.
I'll be using some tomorrow morning after I shovel the latest snowfall. It's coming down at this moment.

I've always found it amusing that Totem specifies the use of "clean" litter for mass loading their speakers...

I would have assumed that the idea of tossing cat poop into your expensive speakers would be so unappealing to customers, that no such warning would be necessary...

[mlsstl]

I tried to stop by this shop a couple of weeks ago but was not successful. I didn't realize they were appointment only in a downtown condo loft. I traded emails with the owner but haven't found the opportunity to call ahead to arrange a visit.

However, I am looking forward to seeing the place as they do have some items I'd love to hear.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't rellish the idea of putting anything at all inside my speakers. I wonder how Totem recommends this to be done. I would hope if they recommend it they provide a means for it.

mlsstl, weekend appointments are pretty good as free meter parking. Naim has some decently priced gear and a couple Totem models but generally it looks like this place is going after strictly high end 2-channel. I would like to hear one of those new ARC digital integrated amps, I think they start at about $6900.00 and 200x2.

[mlsstl]

It is proving difficult to visit this place!

I finally had a free day so called to see if I could schedule an appointment this afternoon. There was no answer so I left a message. Got a call back about a half hour later and the owner is out of town this weekend, so no-go.

There are certain advantages and certain disadvantages to boutique specialty shops. Perhaps the third time will be a charm.

[Mr Peabody]

At least many have regular hours you can count on. This place is a bit unique in the way you have to make an appointment. Our first attempt didn't work out either but the second did. The advantage once you are in is uninterupted listening and playing with gear, no one leaving to catch the phone or bounce between customers, hook up what ever you want because you are the only customer there. I would think they would make themselves available on saturdays though. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion of the Harbeth if you listen to them.

[Ajani]

At least many have regular hours you can count on. This place is a bit unique in the way you have to make an appointment. Our first attempt didn't work out either but the second did. The advantage once you are in is uninterupted listening and playing with gear, no one leaving to catch the phone or bounce between customers, hook up what ever you want because you are the only customer there. I would think they would make themselves available on saturdays though. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion of the Harbeth if you listen to them.

I think it's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation for HiFi dealers... Regular store hours are good in that customers can just walk in the door for a random visit... So customers are happy that they don't need to make an appointment, but then either the owner needs to work in the store full time or hire sales staff to be there + pay utilities to keep the store open... So it is expensive (especially if you're not making a lot of regular sales)... By appointment means the owner can have another job, hire no sales staff and cut back on utilities (lights only need to be on when the customer comes for his appointment)... If I ever run a small HiFi store it would probably either be by appointment or I'd have to have another business running in the same facility (so I'd be there full time anyway)...

[JoeE SP9]

I've always found it amusing that Totem specifies the use of "clean" litter for mass loading their speakers...

I would have assumed that the idea of tossing cat poop into your expensive speakers would be so unappealing to customers, that no such warning would be necessary...

Having taught at one time I can testify to the need to be that specific. Many consumers make the "dumb blonde" appear to be a genius.

[mlsstl]

Finally made it to the shop this afternoon and spent a very pleasant 2 hours chatting with Charles, but mostly just listening to the music I'd brought with me - a very eclectic mix ranging from classical & liturgical to blues and folk.

I listened exclusively to the Harbeth 7ES-3. It is a very good, very natural sounding speaker. The tone balance is extremely similar to my Spendor SP1/2Es. The imaging was quite good given the constraints of the room - not real wide, so the speakers were a bit too close together. The right wall is perpendicular while the left angles away. This moved the overall image to the right. It didn't interfere too much with my assessment or enjoyment of the speakers since any serious comparison would need to be done at my home. Since I'm not in the market at this time, the visit was mainly to simply hear a speaker I'd not yet heard.

Harbeth's claim is their proprietary cone material (Radial) is capable of revealing more detail than other more conventional cones. I couldn't say one way or the other since there was no direct comparison, but I can say it is a fine speaker.

My personal reference point is live acoustic intruments that one could hear played live in the room. If a speaker gets that right, I find I'm pretty happy with how it also presents larger scale music (orchestral, etc.) or material that has no live antecedent (i.e., studio pop & rock.) I found the tonal balance of the 7ES-3 spot-on, whether with solo piano, voice, guitar, or the like. I find many popular speakers have a suck-out in the lower midrange and/or unnaturally bright in the highs. That often works well for more heavily processed studio material, but I find it rather unnatural for well recorded acoustic instruments.

In short, a very pleasant place to visit with some outstanding gear available. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend St. Louis Stereo to anyone in the market for a good brick & mortar shop.

[hifitommy]

the cat litter warning is probably necessary because of the idiotic mcdonalds coffee incident.

[Mr Peabody]

I had already ordered the Zu speakers to try when I heard the Harbeth but if the Zu don't have the tonal quality I've read about the Harbeth are next on my list to home audition. I may have to look at Spendor as well.

[mlsstl]

The tonal balance of my Spendors and the Harbeths is very similar. That's not surprising given their common BBC heritage. It would be interesting to have a side-by-side listen at some point.

I imagine if I were buying new I wouldn't put a lot of effort into running down a Spendor dealer with the Harbeth now available locally. However, I already own a pair of speakers that bring me great joy, so doubt that I'm going to put out a lot of effort and money anytime soon to make a move that would likely be marginal. But, it is always fund to give different things a listen.

[frenchmon]

Did you have a chance to listen to any other speakers while you where there? I did like the 7ES-3...but I found the detail lacking in the upper ranges of the speakers. Was he driving the Harbeths with the Leben tube integrated and Resolution CDP set-up? And what stands did he place them on? When we where there the thin wire looking stands with the acrylic base gave the Harbeths the best sound in my opinion. And yeah...placement was rather hard in that end of the room....I would have loved to listen to some of the set-ups on the other side...Was Charles liking you music? He told me he was a Jazz head.

frenchmon

[mlsstl]

I didn't listen to anything else yesterday. The setup was as you describe, including the stands, amp and CD player.

I find the detail in the Harbeth (and my Spendors) very satisfyingly realistic. As noted, my personal reference is live acoustic voice and instruments that could actually be played in the room. In fact, some of my favorite equipment audition recordings are copies of relatively unprocessed masters where I was either present at the recording or know the artists involved.

However, I can see where others come from. If I had a different reference - the more heavily processed studio pop/rock type of recording which has no live equivalent - I'd probably reach a different conclusion about speakers and perhaps prefer something with a slight up-tilt in the treble. I know 35 years ago when I worked in a stereo store, 95% of the customers would change the treble and bass knobs up to at least 1 or 2 o'clock and sometimes more. With so many amps missing tone controls these days, I think it is not surprising when many prefer a speaker that has some degree of that tone balance built-in.

I call it the "Kodachrome" effect.where things are just a bit brighter and ever so slightly more vivid than real life.

I didn't listen to much straight jazz yesterday, though I did bring a copy of Ronnie Magri's "Shim Sham Revue" (New Olreans burlesque jazz) and played a couple of cuts from it. The one disc that seemed to really catch Charles' ear the most was my mix of classical liturgical music. There's a Thomas Tallis choral piece on there that just shines on a good speaker but can quickly sound off if the speaker tries too hard to enhance things.