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Take a C.E.C driver or a old Krell Studio drive with a X64 dac and tell me that the new stuff is better? Ofcourse its all on personal basis but if you ask 100 reviewers they will definetly tell you that the Genesis 1.1 IRS V and Apogee FR and DIVA are among the very best speakers on the planet. Unless you ask Mr. AN of course.....
Question directly to you, do you think that the IRS-V, Fullrange, DIVA and Gen 1.1 are not amongst the very best in the world. I know some of you guys are generally against speakers you cant afford, but come on. Do you really believe they are not amongst the very best`?
-Flo
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Originally Posted by Florian
Take a C.E.C driver or a old Krell Studio drive with a X64 dac and tell me that the new stuff is better? Ofcourse its all on personal basis but if you ask 100 reviewers they will definetly tell you that the Genesis 1.1 IRS V and Apogee FR and DIVA are among the very best speakers on the planet. Unless you ask Mr. AN of course.....
Unless you've actually polled 100 reviewers who've heard all of those speakers, you're only guessing which speakers THEY would put up there among the best, and letting your personal biases get out of hand in making presumptions about how others would view those speakers that represent YOUR personal best list. Who really cares what others think? I determine the speakers that I consider my personal best, and you determine which speakers you regard as the best. And these shots that you like taking at RGA are immature, especially considering you're a board moderator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Question directly to you, do you think that the IRS-V, Fullrange, DIVA and Gen 1.1 are not amongst the very best in the world. I know some of you guys are generally against speakers you cant afford, but come on. Do you really believe they are not amongst the very best`?
I've heard the Apogee Full Range multiple times, and I would certainly not rank them among the world's best (not that I would ever be arrogant enough to come up with that kind of a list to begin with), since they're not among my personal favorites. I've heard other Genesis models before, but never put them up among my personal favorites either. The IRS, I would definitely rank among the best speakers that I've personally heard. Are there even better speakers out there? I'm sure there are, and I look forward to hearing some of them. Whether any of the speakers I've heard represent the best in the world, I'll leave that question to people who have actually heard every speaker ever built.
And I think you need to stop presuming that people are generally against speakers that they can't afford. (and even there, "afford" is a very loose term; a lot of people on this board have the money and the means to buy the most expensive speakers; in other words, they can afford to, but CHOOSE not to because they see better value elsewhere) Has it ever occurred to you that people don't like some of the ultra expensive speakers that they listen to simply because they don't like how they sound? I didn't care much for the Wilson Sophias, and would easily choose any number of far less expensive speakers -- even if price was NOT a consideration. Similarly, the Apogee Duettas and Full Ranges have never been among my favorite speakers, so why would I even care how much they cost? If I was in the market for a pair of ribbon speakers in that era, I would have opted for the Carver Amazings because IMO those speakers simply sounded better, not because they cost close to half of what the Duettas were selling for.
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Woochifer - yes AN uses no after the fact error correction in their DAC's - OverSampling is a form of error correction in certain respects and no noise shaping, re-clocking or jitter reduction and no digital filters.
Flo
I have heard the Apogee Duetta SIg-- Stereophile claims that this was the BEST sounding of all the Apogees ever made. If I liked it I would have it sitting in my room because at that time I had the amp to be able to run it.
There are many different roads to what the best is...UHF magazine prefers the notion that the best sound comes from a point source (small speaker generally of one or two way design). I'm not saying they;re right but there is a LARGE following to this idea of what the best sound would be and no panel would fall under this notion. Simply put electrostats and panels have strengths and weaknesses --if you buy into what they offer they will be great but the weaknesses over the years put me off.
There is more to a system than matching the SCALE of the event -- if one wants to do that one should be buying large horn speakers.
And as for reviews they are no better than anyone on this board except perhaps they have flare in their writing. You should not NEED other people telling you what to buy. I never said the AN Dac was the best I said you'd definitely notice the difference. To my ear that difference is a substantial improvement - whether other people agree I don't really care - many people do which is why they keep making them. And $50,000US for a DAC - it had better be damn good for that kind of coin.
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Originally Posted by RGA
Woochifer - yes AN uses no after the fact error correction in their DAC's - OverSampling is a form of error correction in certain respects and no noise shaping, re-clocking or jitter reduction and no digital filters.
And that kind of approach has been used by other manufacturers. What you're describing is actually the same approach that Sony used in the original CDP-101, and the results in that case sounded horrendous. AN is obviously doing a lot more than just eliminating the oversampling and digital filtering (for $4,000, they'd better be). At one time, Yamaha sold a CD player with a switch that disabled the filtering altogether. Not sure how good it sounded, but they switched over to bitstream sampling not long after that.
CDs have to have error correction because the CD media itself has imperfections and missing data. Without the 8-bit error correcting CIRC code underlying the 16-bit audio data, read errors are inevitable, but with the CIRC code in place, it's actually possible to have a CD playback with no read errors because missing bits are seamlessly reinserted into the audio data. Only if the errors go beyond the CIRC code's correction capacity do portions of the audio data go missing. And here, the CD player can use interpolation to fill in the gaps, or just let the gaps go.
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Woochifer
You are quite correct that the AN DAC follows many elements of the original CD players - and Peter is quite good about noting his sources on most of his products -- and does so often on forums. There are quite a few differences obviously because you won't mistake the sound of the original Sony AT ALL for the AN players. http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/agrovedac.html
Of course the trade off is the traditional measurements will show worse such as distortion among other things - but it's still a fraction of what even low distortion speakers offer up so to my way of thinking who cares unless one can hear it as distortion? Like I say I can't gaurantee one will like it but it will sound different. I know i'm considered a homer but I have never heard digital replay sound ENOUGH better to warrant a serious investment -- until I heard their cd playback. I understand others are copying it.
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