An Open Letter to All Members

[Ajani]

I didn't start it

LOL... I'm just joking, I doubt Pix is suffering from copremesis..... Frankly, I really hope none of the members on this forum are... it sounds like a really bad condition to have...

[JohnMichael]

Actually if anyone I should be careful as I am diagnosed to have Crohn's disease. Complications may occur in the future..

I hope you are following the recommended diet and your doctor's advice. Many complications can be minimized.

[audio amateur]

I hope you are following the recommended diet and your doctor's advice. Many complications can be minimized.

Well, I find it very hard to keep taking my medication when there's nothing wrong going on. I know I should..
Diet wise, I've been told I can eat normally, avoiding skins and foods that are hard to digest. It's all good

[JohnMichael]

Well, I find it very hard to keep taking my medication when there's nothing wrong going on. I know I should..
Diet wise, I've been told I can eat normally, avoiding skins and foods that are hard to digest. It's all good

Keep taking your medications or I will tell you about a noncompliant friend who in his early 30's had to have a colostomy. He found it difficult to date young women with a bag on his side.

[Mr Peabody]

To nit pick, not at you, but to make a point, using the Honda vs Mercedes example, the upgrade is worth it whether you can afford it or not. There is a difference in attitude between, yes, it's worth it but I must settle for something else because the upgrade is not in my budget and, well I can't afford it, so it's not worth it. See what I mean, because one can't afford it don't take the value away from it. Too many here have the latter attitude, they can't afford it so they want to whiz on everyone else's parade or convince those searching to settle like they did, and that's not right. If you don't have the experience or knowledge, then don't go there. Or, if you do but couldn't reach your goal, let others go as far as they can or as far as they feel it's worth it, to them.

[Ajani]

To nit pick, not at you, but to make a point, using the Honda vs Mercedes example, the upgrade is worth it whether you can afford it or not. There is a difference in attitude between, yes, it's worth it but I must settle for something else because the upgrade is not in my budget and, well I can't afford it, so it's not worth it. See what I mean, because one can't afford it don't take the value away from it. Too many here have the latter attitude, they can't afford it so they want to whiz on everyone else's parade or convince those searching to settle like they did, and that's not right. If you don't have the experience or knowledge, then don't go there. Or, if you do but couldn't reach your goal, let others go as far as they can or as far as they feel it's worth it, to them.

I see what you're saying... but the thing I need to add... is that the respect has to go both ways... in audio things tend to get divided between the "anyone who spends more than x dollars on speakers/cables/amps is a lunatic" and the "everything costing less then x thousand dollars is garbage".... so part of why you have so many of the former is due to the arrogance of the latter....

As I've said in a different thread, we need more encouragement in this hobby and less looking down.... So back to the Honda/Mercedes example.... yeah the Mercedes may be better, but that doesn't mean the Honda isn't good.... and if the Mercedes owner wants not to be hated by the Honda owners, then he needs to actually respect Hondas as good value for their price...

[Mr Peabody]

Agreed. I started at the bottom and worked my way up, so I can relate to both sides. There are also a few here that like to collect and build from vintage gear. That can be a lot of fun and I wish I had the room to play with that more.

Of course, no matter which level you are on you are going to have your fundamental favs and prejudices, Ford/Chevy, Honda/Harley, Yamaha/Onkyo etc. What would life be without a littel Bose bashing

[Ajani]

Agreed. I started at the bottom and worked my way up, so I can relate to both sides. There are also a few here that like to collect and build from vintage gear. That can be a lot of fun and I wish I had the room to play with that more.

Of course, no matter which level you are on you are going to have your fundamental favs and prejudices, Ford/Chevy, Honda/Harley, Yamaha/Onkyo etc. What would life be without a littel Bose bashing

LOL... life just wouldn't be as sweet without some Bose bashing... though I have to give Bose credit for two things: 1) Advertising - I see Bose adverts on TV, in magazines... just about everywhere.... I'd love to see some other audio brands doing some advertising & 2) Making cutesy little, High WAF 'audio' systems....

Though I'd never use a bose product as a serious audio component, I'd considering using one as a HT-In-A-Box.... Also, it would be fun to be able to have a bose setup in one room and a similar priced audio rig in another, just so I can show friends and family the difference between the two...

[audio amateur]

Keep taking your medications or I will tell you about a noncompliant friend who in his early 30's had to have a colostomy. He found it difficult to date young women with a bag on his side.

Will do.
I'm sure that's very hard on him, sorry to hear it

[Groundbeef]

Good Post.... I used to be a believer in diminishing returns (hell, I started the thread on that topic you're probably remembering - under my old username).... but through listening to different equipment, reading reviews and having discussions with people on this site (yourself included), I realized that audio is not that simple....

I've heard products costing three times as much, that I felt weren't worth the upgrade... I've also heard products costing 6 times as much that were worth it to me... More importantly I realized that to even say 'worth the upgrade' is so subjective and depends more on your disposable income sometimes than the actual sonic differences... Is is a Mercedes better than a Honda? In absolute terms - possibly... but is the upgrade worth it? To someone who can afford it - quite possibly... to someone who will be in severe debt for years to buy it - probably not..... Same thing with audio equipment.... Many reviewers even acknowledge this in their articles... just check out how many glowing reviews are given for specific pieces of budget gear e.g Benchmark DAC1, Revel Concerta F12, Marantz SA8001, Monitor Audio RS6... you'll even hear that the reviewer could be content living with the cheapo product (relatively cheap anyway) in their $100k reference system if they had to... Not that they would of course, since they can afford better... So now my view on audio is simply - There are good setups available at every budget......

Now, I listen to as many oppinions as I can to find products to audition.... then I trust my own ears and look in my wallet (lol)....

I feel like this might have been covered before somewhere, but I can't put my thumb on it. GM sound familiar? Anyone?

[Groundbeef]

Keep taking your medications or I will tell you about a noncompliant friend who in his early 30's had to have a colostomy. He found it difficult to date young women with a bag on his side.

Huh, I didn't realize you knew Melvin outside the forum. Learn something new everyday.

[emaidel]

I think that one of the aspects of ultra high-end gear is the ultra, stratospheric price tags on some of the stuff. The best speakers I've ever heard were the B&W "Nautilus" that I heard many years back when their price tag was "only " $39,000. They were being driven by the required Mark Levinson tri-amplification, then costing $98,000. That doesn't even begin to take into consideration the price tag of the source material, or the cost of the interconnects and speaker cables.

So, did this system sound good? Absolutely. Did it sound $130,000 better than mine? Absolutely not. Was it/is it worth the price? I'd have to say, "no."

If designers spent a bit more time making affordable equipment better, then we'd really have something to crow about. How about a speaker system for $500 that blows just about everything else away? What about a power amp for less than $2,000 that does the same? And so on, and so on.

Designing equipment that a miniscule amount of people can possibly afford seems somewhat wasteful. Yes, it may be the best out there, but is so far beyond the affordability of us mere mortals as to be forever untouchable. How many people actually own the ClearAudio turntable which, without a tonearm, sells for $150,000?

A Mercedes S-class sedan costs anywhere from $72,000 to over $100,000. Most people can't possibly afford such a car. A Honda Accord, fully equipped comes in at just under $30,000. There's no question the Accord is a fine automobile, and, at least according to Consumer Reports, will be a far more reliable car for its owner than the far costlier Mercedes. The difference here is that, similarly equipped, the Accord costs a little more than 1/3 the cost of the Mercedes.

Ultra high-end components run far in excess of the $100,000 price tag for the Mercedes. Most of the rest of us haven't spent anywhere near $30,000 for our audio systems. So, there is a far greater disparity in the price of the "best" and the "merely excellent" when it comes to audio equipment, than it is for automobiles. To me, that's a bit silly. And this, from a Mercedes owner, no less!

[JohnMichael]

Huh, I didn't realize you knew Melvin outside the forum. Learn something new everyday.

Melvin is helping me raise my stature from low class to Melvin class.

[Ajani]

I think that one of the aspects of ultra high-end gear is the ultra, stratospheric price tags on some of the stuff. The best speakers I've ever heard were the B&W "Nautilus" that I heard many years back when their price tag was "only " $39,000. They were being driven by the required Mark Levinson tri-amplification, then costing $98,000. That doesn't even begin to take into consideration the price tag of the source material, or the cost of the interconnects and speaker cables.

So, did this system sound good? Absolutely. Did it sound $130,000 better than mine? Absolutely not. Was it/is it worth the price? I'd have to say, "no."

If designers spent a bit more time making affordable equipment better, then we'd really have something to crow about. How about a speaker system for $500 that blows just about everything else away? What about a power amp for less than $2,000 that does the same? And so on, and so on.

Designing equipment that a miniscule amount of people can possibly afford seems somewhat wasteful. Yes, it may be the best out there, but is so far beyond the affordability of us mere mortals as to be forever untouchable. How many people actually own the ClearAudio turntable which, without a tonearm, sells for $150,000?

A Mercedes S-class sedan costs anywhere from $72,000 to over $100,000. Most people can't possibly afford such a car. A Honda Accord, fully equipped comes in at just under $30,000. There's no question the Accord is a fine automobile, and, at least according to Consumer Reports, will be a far more reliable car for its owner than the far costlier Mercedes. The difference here is that, similarly equipped, the Accord costs a little more than 1/3 the cost of the Mercedes.

Ultra high-end components run far in excess of the $100,000 price tag for the Mercedes. Most of the rest of us haven't spent anywhere near $30,000 for our audio systems. So, there is a far greater disparity in the price of the "best" and the "merely excellent" when it comes to audio equipment, than it is for automobiles. To me, that's a bit silly. And this, from a Mercedes owner, no less!

Some do... take one of the brands you just mentioned: B&W - though I find their speakers fatiguing, I am very impressed with just how close their entry level models sound to their more expensive lines... I am a big fan of companies that trickle down/recycle technology from their ultra-expensive gear into their cheaper models... e.g. B&W, Revel, Marantz (so many of us praise their entry level CD5001 and SA8001 without appreciating that the technology was developed in their expensive reference CD players first), Musical fidelity etc...

On the other hand, brands such as Mark Levinson (which you also mentioned) focus only on the rich consumer, which is a waste to me... since I would love to see what a brand of their pedigree could do in the 'budget' arena....

[Mr Peabody]

Emaidel, comparing your system to the mega Levinson system is a judgement call and if you don't think the difference is that great, so be it. But I own Adcom as well and it wouldn't take that large of a system to warrant a 10 times out lay of money. The system I have now is a gfa-5500, gfp-450 with a Conrad Johnson ss DAC behind Dynaudio Audience 60's. One of the better systems I heard was the kps-25s, Krell 250 monoblocks driving Dynaudio Confidence 4's, I can't remember what this system cost, maybe $60k at most, but the difference in performance was as broad as the price range of it to my Adcom. This isn't always going to be true but to not acknowledge the accomplishments of higher end gear is remiss. Your example is a bit extreme but I'll still take your word for it. I think in a poll of those who have heard Levinson and Adcom the large majority would disagree with you. There's a pretty large difference between Adcom and just a basic Levinson system. The weak link there and what threw the curve were the B&W's. Strap those amps to a good speaker and see what happens. The Dynaudio Sapphires at $16k has to be the best value going, to me they kill the Flagship Diamond series. I believe you said you sell Mercedes so I'm sure you got a good deal, if you even own the car. But for some one to own a car with the price tag of a Mercedes and then have an Adcom system shows a variance in priority. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Adcom, in fact, I'm quite impressed with my current system but it isn't exactly reference either in the way Mercedes is to automobile ownership. In contrast, I have Conrad Johnson as a main system and drive, well own, never drove, a Chrysler Town & Country. To me other than maybe status and paying way too much for maintenance I probably wouldn't see the point in having a Mercedes. My T&C has leather and a host of features too long to list or I want to sit and type. It may also be a difference in function of how we use each thing. I listen to much more music on my system than I watch TV, my audio system is very important to me. I cringe at the thought of my kids eating Teddy Grahams in a Mercedes, I'm not too happy about it in my T&C either but shtuff happens.

The Dynaudio Evidence I heard is worth it's price. If I had a large enough room and the money I wouldn't hesitate. I've heard nothing come as close to the wall of sound as a live concert than these speakers. You have to take "ultra high end" gear case by case, I can't make a blanket statement for all of it but sometimes it is worth it. I'd like to know how you all base your opinion or work your ratio. In the Evidence case compared to my speakers they cost maybe 20 times the cost, my speakers sound good but they can't even come close, as you'd expect for that price, to doing what the Evidence is capable of. Maybe it's like weather once it gets below freezing who cares how far the mercury drops, but I bet those where it gets sub zero would beg to differ. If you believe your system is right in there with Levinson, well..... keep telling your self that, what ever it takes to get some comfort.

[Ajani]

Emaidel, comparing your system to the mega Levinson system is a judgement call and if you don't think the difference is that great, so be it. But I own Adcom as well and it wouldn't take that large of a system to warrant a 10 times out lay of money. The system I have now is a gfa-5500, gfp-450 with a Conrad Johnson ss DAC behind Dynaudio Audience 60's. One of the better systems I heard was the kps-25s, Krell 250 monoblocks driving Dynaudio Confidence 4's, I can't remember what this system cost, maybe $60k at most, but the difference in performance was as broad as the price range of it to my Adcom. This isn't always going to be true but to not acknowledge the accomplishments of higher end gear is remiss. Your example is a bit extreme but I'll still take your word for it. I think in a poll of those who have heard Levinson and Adcom the large majority would disagree with you. There's a pretty large difference between Adcom and just a basic Levinson system. The weak link there and what threw the curve were the B&W's. Strap those amps to a good speaker and see what happens. The Dynaudio Sapphires at $16k has to be the best value going, to me they kill the Flagship Diamond series. I believe you said you sell Mercedes so I'm sure you got a good deal, if you even own the car. But for some one to own a car with the price tag of a Mercedes and then have an Adcom system shows a variance in priority. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Adcom, in fact, I'm quite impressed with my current system but it isn't exactly reference either in the way Mercedes is to automobile ownership. In contrast, I have Conrad Johnson as a main system and drive, well own, never drove, a Chrysler Town & Country. To me other than maybe status and paying way too much for maintenance I probably wouldn't see the point in having a Mercedes. My T&C has leather and a host of features too long to list or I want to sit and type. It may also be a difference in function of how we use each thing. I listen to much more music on my system than I watch TV, my audio system is very important to me. I cringe at the thought of my kids eating Teddy Grahams in a Mercedes, I'm not too happy about it in my T&C either but shtuff happens.

The Dynaudio Evidence I heard is worth it's price. If I had a large enough room and the money I wouldn't hesitate. I've heard nothing come as close to the wall of sound as a live concert than these speakers. You have to take "ultra high end" gear case by case, I can't make a blanket statement for all of it but sometimes it is worth it. I'd like to know how you all base your opinion or work your ratio. In the Evidence case compared to my speakers they cost maybe 20 times the cost, my speakers sound good but they can't even come close, as you'd expect for that price, to doing what the Evidence is capable of. Maybe it's like weather once it gets below freezing who cares how far the mercury drops, but I bet those where it gets sub zero would beg to differ. If you believe your system is right in there with Levinson, well..... keep telling your self that, what ever it takes to get some comfort.

I guess this is where the subjective part of this hobby really comes into play.... I've auditioned Dynaudio Focus 220 and 140 extensively, in direct comparison with B&W CM1, 703 and 805S speakers... with an Arcam CD Player and Rotel amp/preamp... and for me, the Dynaudio were some of the most boring and uninvolving speakers I've ever heard... This perception probably has a lot to do with them being directly contrasted with the B&Ws which have a totally different (more aggressive) presentation.... In the end I found both brands unsatisfactory... the B&Ws were too bright and the Dynaudio were too dull (I wonder if that's an approved audio word)....

[Mr Peabody]

Have you heard other speakers with Rotel, or Dynaudio with another amp, like Arcam? I haven't as much experience with the Focus but generally Dynaudio have always been neutral no matter the series. I find Rotel polite but dull and sluggish, I suspect that's what the Dyn's let you hear. You are absolutely correct though, subjective. I still don't think you'd find too many people who would describe Dyn's as dull.

[Ajani]

Have you heard other speakers with Rotel, or Dynaudio with another amp, like Arcam? I haven't as much experience with the Focus but generally Dynaudio have always been neutral no matter the series. I find Rotel polite but dull and sluggish, I suspect that's what the Dyn's let you hear. You are absolutely correct though, subjective. I still don't think you'd find too many people who would describe Dyn's as dull.

I owned a Rotel & Mission combo that I really liked. Mission has a reputation for being aggressive, so they may have matched well with the Rotel because of that... Unfortunately, my only experience with Dynaudio has been with Rotel... Hopefully one day I'll get to hear the Dynaudio on a different amp to see if I still have the same oppinion....

[emaidel]

Emaidel, comparing your system to the mega Levinson system is a judgement call and if you don't think the difference is that great, so be it. . If you believe your system is right in there with Levinson, well..... keep telling your self that, what ever it takes to get some comfort.

You have thorougly misconstrued my post. I made no such comparison, nor would I ever dream of doing so. I said that the combination of the Nautilus speakers and the Mark Levinson amplification was the best I'd ever heard. What I didn't think was that it was worth the price tag of almost 8 years ago of $130,000. I certainly didn't equate Adcom with Levinson.

Adcom has always represented a high level of quality for its price, and has justifiably been believed to be a great value. There's lots better out there, and Levinson certainly is one of those brands. It just isn't $130,000 better or, more precisely, $96,500 better. The GFA-5800 (which Nelson Pass believes is the best sounding amp Adcom ever made) sold for $1,500 when new vs. the $98,000 price tag for the Levinson equipment at least 8 years ago, so who knows how much it costs today.

And owning a Mercedes is no reason to have to purchase Levinson gear either. The amplifier I mentioned to drive the Natuilus speakers costs more than most loaded S-class sedans. That, is just ridiculous, considering the extensive amount of engineering, manufacturing time and raw materials that go into an S-class vs. whatever goes into a Levinson amp.

And, no, I never sold Mercedes automobiles. My son sells Porches, so does that count?

[Mr Peabody]

You have thorougly misconstrued my post. I made no such comparison, nor would I ever dream of doing so. I said that the combination of the Nautilus speakers and the Mark Levinson amplification was the best I'd ever heard. What I didn't think was that it was worth the price tag of almost 8 years ago of $130,000. I certainly didn't equate Adcom with Levinson.

Adcom has always represented a high level of quality for its price, and has justifiably been believed to be a great value. There's lots better out there, and Levinson certainly is one of those brands. It just isn't $130,000 better or, more precisely, $96,500 better. The GFA-5800 (which Nelson Pass believes is the best sounding amp Adcom ever made) sold for $1,500 when new vs. the $98,000 price tag for the Levinson equipment at least 8 years ago, so who knows how much it costs today.

And owning a Mercedes is no reason to have to purchase Levinson gear either. The amplifier I mentioned to drive the Natuilus speakers costs more than most loaded S-class sedans. That, is just ridiculous, considering the extensive amount of engineering, manufacturing time and raw materials that go into an S-class vs. whatever goes into a Levinson amp.

> I, did, understand what you were saying. Maybe not in your case, but I do feel that sometimes the price is worth it. I think the reason your example system was $96k is due to multiple amps instead of one good one. As much as that Levinson/B&W wouldn't be my dream system, I'm sure it was still able to perform way beyond your Adcom system. 20 times, maybe, maybe not, it depends on who's doing the fuzzy math.

> A person who can afford a Mercedes should be able to purchase gear above Adcom if that was their desire. You are easier satisfied than myself when it comes to music reproduction. I couldn't afford a Mercedes, unless it was large enough to live in. Your point of satisfaction is what keeps you from thinking the price was worth it. I'm sure the margin of profit is great on that calibur of gear as well, the same as your son makes more money selling a Porsche than a VW Rabbit. Some people would spend $130k on a strand of diamonds. I'd rather spend it on hi fi if I had it. Because you don't think the Levinson/B&W isn't worth the $136k and you are willing to settle don't make those that would rather have the Levinson any more wrong.

And, no, I never sold Mercedes automobiles. My son sells Porches, so does that count?

Sure, we'll allow some points for that. Some one here just recently mentioned they either do, or did, sell Mercedes. I thought it was you. Maybe I'll run across that thread again.

[emaidel]

We disagree, and that's pretty much that. To me, $98,000 for tri-amplification (NO pre-amp, however) is simply ridiculous. Nothing will ever justify such a price tag to me, unless it's the amplification system to power up a football stadium, or something like that.

Insofar as being a Mercedes owner, I am by no means the supermely wealthy individual you seem to think I am. When we purchased our Mercedes, we bought it used (it was a "Starmark" vehicle). The price tag for a new Chrysler 300 is about the same as that for a 3 or 4 year-old E-class Mercedes (depending on the size of the engine), so why then is someone who bought the Chrysler over the used Mercedes not also believed to be one who shouldn't "settle" for everything else he purchases, as you imply I do, and shouldn't, because I own a Mercedes?

I used the Mercedes analogy only to illustrate the differences in price between "ordinary" vehicles, and high-end S-class Mercedes cars, and that such a difference is a good deal less than that between an "ordinary" stereo system and an ultra high-end system. I also wanted to illustrate a concrete example of how ludicrously priced some gear is, considering one can actually purchase a fully-loaded, brand new S-class for less than some audio gear. I simply cannot accept that, though I realize that you can. And so, we disagree.

[hifitommy]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

anyway, glad to have you.

[Ajani]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

anyway, glad to have you.

What's wrong with dbt? If two audio components have the same measured response, but different price tags, how else can you impartially tell whether there is a real sonic difference between the two? Even well respected brands (such as Revel) use dbt to help determine whether there are real differences when they are testing new speakers... I'll agree that it's not easy to setup a proper dbt.... but once one it is setup, I think it as a very useful test...

However, regardless of how I feel about cables and differences between amps etc... I think we should respect someone else's right to believe what they want...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

Woh, a blast from the past. Someone git the electronic heart starting kit, the T man has fallen down and can't git up! Did you say Mtrycraft and eyespy? I haven't heard those names since moses 58th birthday party.

What a bash, still hung over from that one......



anyway, glad to have you.[/QUOTE]

[hifitommy]

"dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results. "

it works IF properly done. rarely is it. also, it puts performance anxiety into the equation. therefore, its nearly useless.