New Stereophile Reviewer irritates Totem and Musical Fidelity

[atomicAdam]

Exactly.... If the music was processed then it should sound processed... If it was recorded live in a church/concert hall then it should sound like it was recorded at such a venue...

Actually, when recorded in a church it should sound like it was recorded in a church, not like you are actually in a church.

Remember, even in these live settings, mics, chords, mixers, engineering, mastering, and transferring all effect the information on that CD/vinyl ever before it goes into your system. You aren't actually hearing what was played in that church perfectly.

[Geoffcin]

Actually, when recorded in a church it should sound like it was recorded in a church, not like you are actually in a church.

Remember, even in these live settings, mics, chords, mixers, engineering, mastering, and transferring all effect the information on that CD/vinyl ever before it goes into your system. You aren't actually hearing what was played in that church perfectly.

Yes I agree, but sometimes I think it can sound even BETTER!

I've found that in a "HiFi' setup that I like, a good "live" recording will actually sound better to me than it would if you were to hear it live in anything but the "best seat in the house". The ability to control all of the parameters that go into the recording as if you were in the "best seat in the house" lay them down, and then play them back in your controlled audio room makes for a better "sound". It might not be live, but it sounds better! (at least to me)

p.s.

We should open a different thread if we want to get into the "truth vs. beauty" argument...

[frenchmon]

Actually, when recorded in a church it should sound like it was recorded in a church, not like you are actually in a church.

Remember, even in these live settings, mics, chords, mixers, engineering, mastering, and transferring all effect the information on that CD/vinyl ever before it goes into your system. You aren't actually hearing what was played in that church perfectly.

And how does a live recording in a church sound versus like you are in a church AA?

Remember, he did not say they go to sound like they where in a church, but to get the natural acoustic settings, because these spaces sound beautiful and they prefer the natural reverberation over even the best digital processors. NO one is in the church when they record...they dont record gospel or christian music at all...they just want what the church acoustics have to offer.

Now I've got many gospel recording that where recorded live in a church, and they sound like they where recorded live in a church, and I do get the feeling like I'm in a church when sitting in my easy chair. And while I know a recording may not be perfect, I can't hear or pick out the imperfections on the recording thus while logic says it not perfect, I cant pin-point the imperfections on a live recording.

frenchmon

[Geoffcin]

Now I've got many gospel recording that where recorded live in a church, and they sound like they where recorded live in a church, and I do get the feeling like I'm in a church when sitting in my easy chair. And while I know a recording may not be perfect, I can't hear or pick out the imperfections on the recording thus while logic says it not perfect, I cant pin-point the imperfections on a live recording.

frenchmon

Well I don't presume to answer for Adam, but when was the last time you sat in your easy chair at church with the volume control in your hand?

These recordings might sound LIKE a church, but if you actually were at the church it would sound different, and probably not nearly as good. The amount of effort people like Chesky go through to put down these tracks mean that what you are hearing, even with the limitations of playback tech, is usually MUCH better than anyone sitting in the recording venue could possibly expect to hear.

It sucks to be us eh?

[Ajani]

Yes I agree, but sometimes I think it can sound even BETTER!

I've found that in a "HiFi' setup that I like, a good "live" recording will actually sound better to me than it would if you were to hear it live in anything but the "best seat in the house". The ability to control all of the parameters that go into the recording as if you were in the "best seat in the house" lay them down, and then play them back in your controlled audio room makes for a better "sound". It might not be live, but it sounds better! (at least to me)

p.s.

We should open a different thread if we want to get into the "truth vs. beauty" argument...

Agreed... I also think recorded can sound much better than live (though obviously that is totally subjective)... It's part of why I don't ascribe to the view that the aim of Hi-Fi is to reproduce the live event...

In addition to your points about "best seat in the house", there is also the issue of mistakes, audience noise, etc... that can make a live event less satisfying than a recorded one... I find that many artists who can produce beautiful music in a studio, can't sing the same song very well at a live event....

[frenchmon]

Well I don't presume to answer for Adam, but when was the last time you sat in your easy chair at church with the volume control in your hand?

These recordings might sound LIKE a church, but if you actually were at the church it would sound different, and probably not nearly as good. The amount of effort people like Chesky go through to put down these tracks mean that what you are hearing, even with the limitations of playback tech, is usually MUCH better than anyone sitting in the recording venue could possibly expect to hear.

It sucks to be us eh?

Funny you should say that. I enjoyed my church in North Carolina. It was a huge congregation with about 3000 members. They had about 200 in choir and a 15 piece praise band. They had a Yammie PA sound system with these huge speakers hanging from the ceiling. They would play numerous songs from Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith and the sorts and the original artist did sound better when I played them at home. I think it was the system at church that was terrible. But now I live in a suburb of St. Louis and attend a much smaller church about 150 members with 5 people in the choir and 4 people in the praise band. I was just sitting in church about 2 weeks ago, in my same spot I always sit in listening and thinking how much better the system sounds....that it sounded just like I was sitting in my two channel room at home. The only difference in sound was the noise from the church members, but the sound system the church was using was great. I listen through amplification at church as well as home. The only differenc other that the noisy members is one is live the other is recorded. If I close my eyes and the gear is good, I can get the same sound. Once againI can't hear the imperfection of the recording equipment versus a live peformance. But its all subjective any ways.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

.. I find that many artists who can produce beautiful music in a studio, can't sing the same song very well at a live event....

Aint that the truth!

frenchmon

[Geoffcin]

Ahh, convergence is a wonderful thing. Really when you get down to it we're all after a similar experience.

For me it's really simple. A well recorded closely mic'ed recording of a vocal sounds in my system like the person is in front of me, quite literally standing there between my speakers. I've been to loads of concerts, Broadway plays, and clubs and I've NEVER had that feeling in situ. I've listen to a bunch of a great audio gear, and the ones that really work give you that "being on stage" with the performer feeling when the music was recorded that way.

Like I said, it sucks to be us eh?

[Geoffcin]

Funny you should say that. I enjoyed my church in North Carolina. It was a huge congregation with about 3000 members. They had about 200 in choir and a 15 piece praise band. They had a Yammie PA sound system with these huge speakers hanging from the ceiling. They would play numerous songs from Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith and the sorts and the original artist did sound better when I played them at home. I think it was the system at church that was terrible. But now I live in a suburb of St. Louis and attend a much smaller church about 150 members with 5 people in the choir and 4 people in the praise band. I was just sitting in church about 2 weeks ago, in my same spot I always sit in listening and thinking how much better the system sounds....that it sounded just like I was sitting in my two channel room at home. The only difference in sound was the noise from the church members, but the sound system the church was using was great. I listen through amplification at church as well as home. The only differenc other that the noisy members is one is live the other is recorded. If I close my eyes and the gear is good, I can get the same sound. Once againI can't hear the imperfection of the recording equipment versus a live peformance. But its all subjective any ways.

frenchmon

Oh, don't get me wrong. There's times when nothing, nothing short of having your own church will do. For example;

I was on vacation in England in '98 and we went to Bath. Well they have a beautiful Church there, the Bath Abbey, and the organ they have is one of the most extraordinary organs I've ever seen or heard. I was lucky enough to have a professional organist put it though it's paces, and in this respect I will agree with you 100%. There's not a sound system on earth that could reproduce what I heard that day. it's quite literally burned into my brain.

Before we went to the Moon as a species we did things like this;

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/113...47124484nEUxFJ

Truly sublime...

[Ajani]

Ahh, convergence is a wonderful thing. Really when you get down to it we're all after a similar experience.

Yep, pretty much... We all want basically the same thing, even though we'll fight like stray dogs over a piece of meat, about the best way to achieve those goals...

[atomicAdam]

Do any of u think there is a possibility that a reviewer is possitively swaded by listening to their favorite album as opposed to something they don't like.

What I mean, is we all probably read a reviewer say ' I was able to get lost in the music and stop thinking critically of the sound '. Isn't great music, music u love, supposed to do that anyways? I mean for me, New Order songs on a system of any quality tend to take me away to a different place.

What made me think of this is that I've heard classical (of which I am not always a fan) on an amazing system, and I loved it!

And jsut tonight I was listening to Broken Social Scene, first on a CD and was reading the forums and about 3/4 the way through kicked off the yoke of the internet and just listened to the music. I started to get lost in it when while reading the forums I though more critically about what I heard. When I switched over to the same BSS on vinyl, and didn't read the forums, I was lost, but not fully, until about track six.

I guess, I'm just wondering if a reviewer pre biases equipment by listening to music they love?

(Btw, forgive typos. This was posted from my phone while in bed)

[RGA]

The trap is buying well recorded cds of music you don't particularly love just because it is said to be of great recording quality. Patricia barber's Cafe Blue - yes good recording - not really my cup of tea musically - on any system really.

The stereo system should not be choosing the music you listen to. If it only renders supposed good recordings listenable - it does not mean that it is "showing you" the weaknesses of the recordings - it may in fact be adding its own problems and good recordings are less affected. Good recordings tend to make mediocre systems sound a lot better than they are.

A while back I was using The Outfield "Play Deep" which is a mediocre CD in the mid 1980s that happened to be the first CD I bought. I use this from time to time to hear what it is a system will do with it. On Audio Note's CD player running through Sim Audio amplifier and Sonus Faber Toy loudspeakers the sound was more open and far more informative than it had ever been on any other system I have ever heard that CD on. It showed up faults in the recording but remained listenable and interesting. With the Sim Audio CD player the album was darker deader less informative and less interesting. It wasn't bright or etchy - it just sounded a lot like my 12 year old Cambridge Audio and a lot more like how most CD players play this cd. It's like half the signal is lost but it's enjoyable enough.

On another CD however - Pulp Fiction (I forget which track) a male vocal sounded as if he was almost "straining" vocally while again the Sim Audio thickened everything making it dark and brooding. Something definitely to be said for a lack of contrast in the Sim Audio Player. Not that it was bad by any means - I quite enjoyed the Sim Audio Gear and Sonus Faber combo because it was "musically" enjoyable and all of that. The AN CD player delineated differences with the recordings in a rather striking manner - moreso with the matching tube amps.

The Sim Audio reminds me of Bob Neill when he compared his Naim CD player in that it grabs you by the scruff of the neck with its stamped on bold flavour and impressive deep bass. But it's always there - on every recording and it doesn't go away.

This is the thing about differentiating differences - when a rock album has a kick you in the chest midbass hit the speaker needs to have that ability. If it doesn't then it's not differntiating the differences - it is not reproducing what is on the disc. No speaker will do that perfectly incidentally no matter how much you spend. So you choose the compromise that meets your needs.

[poppachubby]

I mean for me, New Order songs on a system of any quality tend to take me away to a different place.

What kind of unwashed, smelly hippy are you?!? New Order? Pfffftt....so much to learn about "the movement"...

[atomicAdam]

What kind of unwashed, smelly hippy are you?!? New Order? Pfffftt....so much to learn about "the movement"...

I'm no hippy. I no listen to the Grateful Dead of Phish or any thing like that.

[frenchmon]

I wonder what the thought would be of someone who generally doesn't like a particular "type of" speaker design but then hears one that truly impresses him. For instance a panel fan who auditions a particular boxed speakers and raves about them to the point of buying them himself and substiting his panels? Or the other way around.

RGA and Adam...just read a wonderful review of the Canton Vento Reference 7 speaker at www.dagogo.com. Canton just happends to be one of my favorite speaker lines but just don't get their due in the States, thus not many reviews. Never heard of the reviewer (Ed Momkus) but he did a wonderful and professional job in his review of the speaker. Kindly tell him if you happen to
see him that I said thanks.

frenchmon

[Ajani]

I wonder what the thought would be of someone who generally doesn't like a particular "type of" speaker design but then hears one that truly impresses him. For instance a panel fan who auditions a particular boxed speakers and raves about them to the point of buying them himself and substiting his panels? Or the other way around.

I think that would make people take notice... as long as it is a case where the reviewer has sufficient experience with the other "type of" speaker, but never liked any of them... and not a case where this is basically the first time he is being exposed to a panel speaker...

If it's the first time he's being exposed, then that probably just means he was always a 'panel' guy but didn't know it yet... if he's heard, for example, the entire Magnepan line, and suddenly a new model is released that gets him to put aside his B&W 802D, then I suspect the new Maggie has accomplished something that previous ones did not.... And hence would be worth an audition by persons who don't like panels...

[RGA]

RGA and Adam...just read a wonderful review of the Canton Vento Reference 7 speaker at www.dagogo.com. Canton just happends to be one of my favorite speaker lines but just don't get their due in the States, thus not many reviews. Never heard of the reviewer (Ed Momkus) but he did a wonderful and professional job in his review of the speaker. Kindly tell him if you happen to
see him that I said thanks.

frenchmon

If I see him I will let you know. I am not sure which dagogo reviewers - so far All I know is that I am going (if the U.S. will let Canadian Planes in. My computer is iffy - They are saying no carry-on bags and to check everything - I'm not checking a laptop. But they may soften this before Jan 6th.

Other than me - I know that Constantine Soo is going but so far not sure about anyone else.