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  1. #76
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    I really like Mikey.

    The business would not be the same without him. He certainly has opinions on gear, but most of them I don't agree with. I remember he famously threw a tantrum because JA wasn't going to give a very expensive tube ($250k!) amp a class "A" rating after JA had found that it missed all of it's stated measuments by a LARGE margin, had a huge amount of distortion at anything more than just a few watts, and had an output impedence so high that it would swing the speakers +/- 10dB! Mikey just LOVED it though!! Sure, he's into excitment. Amps that are dead flat with no ringing or overshoot and with enough damping to control his puppies leave him feeling flat. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
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  2. #77
    RGA
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    Strictly speaking I don't agree with Fremer or UHF or Hi-fi Choice all the time either (rarely in most cases). Fremer is a big power SS fanboy however so coming from a SS guy criticism means more perhaps than if I or tube supporters critique the stuff. The manufacturer generally gets a choice of who does the review so ....

  3. #78
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    DOUBT THAT, and even if thats the case, whats the point? Just a ridiculously
    expensive needle, IMHO.
    like using the Starship Enterprise to go to the store for a slurpee .
    The point is, as usual you don't know what you're talking about. I guess all that electronics training didn't teach you how to read.

    The real point is, it's something your narrow minded attitude has no knowledge of. That's true of many things.
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  4. #79
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Strictly speaking I don't agree with Fremer or UHF or Hi-fi Choice all the time either (rarely in most cases). Fremer is a big power SS fanboy however so coming from a SS guy criticism means more perhaps than if I or tube supporters critique the stuff. The manufacturer generally gets a choice of who does the review so ....
    Mikey is one of the best reviewers in the business. It's always a pleasure to read what he writes, even if I don't agree with all of it. He's also an analog-is-always-best guy too. The guy lives for vinyl! That's OK with me too.

    Here's the review of the monster Wavac I alluded to earlier;

    http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps...ac/index5.html

    I'm giving Mikey a pass on this one. I think big ticket items can put stars in peoples eyes. And even if they don't live up to the hype it's hard to escape the feeling of using something that only a few will ever have a chance to.
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  5. #80
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    A testament to the unreliability of purely subjective reviews

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    This is what Fremer had to say

    But while the better of the two pairs of Bryston monoblocks always sounded pleasant, they rarely sounded exciting. The original pair elicited this conclusion: "I listened happily to the pair of them for a month, concentrating on the many things they did well. But their presentation was sort of like tofu: nourishing, but in need of spicing up to be truly tasty. Replacing the darTZeel NHB-18NS preamplifier with Musical Fidelity's all-tube Primo added needed texture and dimensionality. The Audio Valve Sunilda phono preamp added interest. Changes of cable produced useful results. But overall, the Brystons' presentation lacked the microdynamics I was used to from the Musical Fidelity Titan."

    While the second pair of 7B SST2s was clearly an improvement over the first, that conclusion stands. In my experience, it is hard to beat a lot of good, clean power, and the Bryston 7B SST2 offers that, plus ultra-low distortion, in a superbly built, reliable package at a very reasonable price. But before buying a pair, listen to the competition.
    http://www.stereophile.com/solidpowe...er/index4.html

    I'm not saying put all your stock into Fremer but his comments are not dissimilar to the others over the years from UHF or Hi-Fi Choice or what I and numerous other forum posters hear. Having said all that I would still consider them for my home theater set-up down the line..
    A counterpoint to Micheal Fremer review by Larry Greenfield

    The 28B-SST's reproduction of HUGE dynamic contrasts in synthesizer recordings was accompanied by an ability to reveal emotionally evocative musical details ... Come to think of it, the 28B-SST is just the right amplifier to capture the raw power, passion, sonorities, and subtle inner details of Golijov's Azul, should a recording of the work ever be released. I can't wait.
    Larry Greenfield felt the 28B-SST did not lack microdynamics, who to believe, Micheal Fremer (7B-SST) or Larry Greenfield(28B-SST)?
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Strictly speaking I don't agree with Fremer or UHF or Hi-fi Choice all the time either (rarely in most cases). Fremer is a big power SS fanboy however so coming from a SS guy criticism means more perhaps than if I or tube supporters critique the stuff. The manufacturer generally gets a choice of who does the review so ....
    Errr....in Stereophile's case, that's not correct.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  7. #82
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Errr....in Stereophile's case, that's not correct.
    Well let's just say that if the manufacturer doesn't like who is reviewing the product they don't have to have the product shipped. This is also why you see certain reviewers at magazines including Stereophile review a lot of the same products as ones they already own or have reviewed in the past. The Stereophile reviewer who owns Paradigm gets paradigm, the one who likes SETs or panels gets SETs or panels. Whatever their claims it is fairly obvious who is getting what kind of gear. But it may be just coincidence.

  8. #83
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Larry Greenfield felt the 28B-SST did not lack microdynamics, who to believe, Micheal Fremer (7B-SST) or Larry Greenfield(28B-SST)?
    Yes I suppose it would be a good idea to listen to them and make the call.

  9. #84
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    The point is, as usual you don't know what you're talking about. I guess all that electronics training didn't teach you how to read.

    The real point is, it's something your narrow minded attitude has no knowledge of. That's true of many things.
    I know exactly what I AM TALKING ABOUT.
    You need a computer to read the in formation the laser is giving you off of the grooves,
    at some point you will lose the analog in the signal, waste of time, basically.
    BESIDES thats not what the op was talking about, IMHO, he was talking about a
    totally analog audio system , brand new, from the ground up, not an attempted refurb
    on something that is obsolete.
    SOMETHING WHERE a recording head directly records analog to a surface with very little noise or processing, and its read the same way, something without the inherent
    shortcomings of records.
    Been a surprize to me that with all of its resources that the electronics industry hasn't
    tried this, would certainly be a market for it, I know I would go for one .
    As for closed minded, look in the mirror.
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  10. #85
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Let me try this again. The Finial now ELPJ Laser TT is completely analog. There is no digital anything in the signal path. I suggest you read one of the White papers about the design.

    Check this link directly to the manufacturer.
    http://www.elpj.com/about/

    As I said "You don't know what you're talking about". Plus, the OP was talking about LP playback not recording.

    The ELPJ laser turntable has three models available (with noise reduction and vacuum cleaning attachments extra):[2]
    • LT-1LRC - US$12,000 - 33, 45 - 7", 10", 12"
    • LT-1XRC - US$15,300 - 33, 45, 78 - 7", 10", 12"
    • LT-2XRC - US$16,400 - 33, 45, 78 - 7", 8", 9", 10", 11", 12"
    The laser pickup uses five beams—one on each channel to track the sides of the groove, one on each channel to pick up the sound (just below the tracking beams), and a fifth to track the surface of the record and keep the pickup at a constant height, which allows for record thickness and warping.
    The lasers focus on a section of the groove above the level where a conventional stylus will have traveled, and below the typical depth of surface scratches, giving the possibility of like-new reproduction even from worn or scratched records.
    The pickup output is analogue: the signal path is never digitized.
    Using a laser pickup eliminates many problems associated with physical styli: record wear, horizontal tracking angle error, turntable rumble, leveling adjustment inaccuracies, inner groove distortion, channel-balance error, stereo crosstalk, anti-skating compensation, acoustic feedback, skipping, locked-groove problems, problems tracking warped, cracked, or eccentric records and cartridge hum pickup.
    The laser turntable is extraordinarily sensitive to record cleanliness and will play exactly what it sees—a speck of dirt is treated as if it were part of the record surface.
    When an LP is inserted into the tray drawer and the drawer closed, the turntable reads the surface of the LP, displaying the number of tracks. Users can then program which tracks to play, or repeat, much as a CD player operates.
    The laser diode has a typical life of 10,000 hours of use, compared to the 500 hours of playback recommended for a diamond stylus or 50 hours for a sapphire one.
    Versions of the ELPJ laser turntable will play back analogue disc records at any speed from 30 to 90 RPM (+/- 0.1 RPM) and of any size from 7 to 12 inches (180 to 300 mm).
    The record must be black; coloured, transparent or translucent records cannot be played[3].
    ELP state that they had sold 1300 units by 2007[2]
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  11. #86
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    I could never afford one of those but sure would like to hear one.

  12. #87
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I could never afford one of those but sure would like to hear one.
    I heard one at the HE2005 show. They even had a demo disk that was broken and taped together that played without a hitch! The whole thing looked like a silly waste of effort to me though. Vinyl is a flawed dead-end technology, why even bother?
    Last edited by Geoffcin; 09-02-2010 at 05:52 PM.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I heard one at the HE2005 show. They even had a demo disk that was broken and taped together that played without a hitch! The whole thing looked like a silly was of effort to me though. Vinyl is a flawed dead-end technology, why even bother?
    I guess because as flawed and dead end as it is, it remains the benchmark that digital is still trying to achieve.

  14. #89
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Just calling it like I see it!
    At the HE2005 the best playback to me was DVD-Audio played through the Meridian multi-player
    on 3 Swiss made Piega C8 speakersdriven by monoblock Innersound amps.


    FWIW; I consider all disk tech up to and including BlueRay flawed and outdated. 10 years from now almost everything we hear or look at will all be stored digitally on a server. BlueRay might live on as some sort of archival format, but a fully digital world is just right around the corner.
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  15. #90
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    I'm with you on Meridian, I haven't heard them in some years since they were dropped by our local dealer but I thought they sounded very good.

    I don't know about right around the corner, if so, some of us will go screaming and crying

  16. #91
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I don't know about right around the corner, if so, some of us will go screaming and crying
    I guess it takes about a generation to get it out of the system, but if you look how fast DVD wiped out VHS, or how fast digital cameras overtook film cameras then you have some idea what's coming for audio. If I could download all my favorite artists in 24/192 or 24/96 then I would never ever play another disk....EVER!

    We're not there yet, but even 5 years from now we'll be looking at a good percentage of people using only downloaded music. The days of disks are numbered!!
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I guess because as flawed and dead end as it is, it remains the benchmark that digital is still trying to achieve.
    Sure, in the same way that electric trains have miserably failed to capture the romanticism of steam locomotives but on all performance fronts, the steam loco has been totally and completely surpassed.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  18. #93
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I heard one at the HE2005 show. They even had a demo disk that was broken and taped together that played without a hitch! The whole thing looked like a silly waste of effort to me though. Vinyl is a flawed dead-end technology, why even bother?
    Because I have 3500 LP's and HDD storage is just not reliable enough for me. I always have all my data backed up. That's because I know from experience that HDD's fail, usually with no warning. When there is solid state storage in multi terabyte size I may rethink this. Even then an EMP will destroy the data. A large EMP is the byproduct of a nuclear explosion so I suppose I shouldn't worry about data loss as I'll be dead anyway.
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  19. #94
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Even then an EMP will destroy the data. A large EMP is the byproduct of a nuclear explosion so I suppose I shouldn't worry about data loss as I'll be dead anyway.
    HAHAHA!! Of course that windup Victrola will still work so there will be music after the "end of days"!
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  20. #95
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Because I have 3500 LP's and HDD storage is just not reliable enough for me. I always have all my data backed up. That's because I know from experience that HDD's fail, usually with no warning. When there is solid state storage in multi terabyte size I may rethink this. Even then an EMP will destroy the data. A large EMP is the byproduct of a nuclear explosion so I suppose I shouldn't worry about data loss as I'll be dead anyway.
    PROBABLY not, you will just wish you were dead.
    A Faraday CAGE (microwave oven) will protect anything inside, of course then you will
    have to find a power source.
    I HAVE HEARD of survivalist types putting their cell and ipods in their microwaves,
    guess they never figured what a nuke would do to a cell net.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Sure, in the same way that electric trains have miserably failed to capture the romanticism of steam locomotives but on all performance fronts, the steam loco has been totally and completely surpassed.
    This goes without saying but what an amazingly inaccurate analogy.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    This goes without saying but what an amazingly inaccurate analogy.
    Leave the analogy aside, what's the elusive benchmark that vinyl has set, it's certainly not technical performance of any kind because by any objective measure it has been totally and completely surpassed by digital in every way.
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  23. #98
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I guess it takes about a generation to get it out of the system, but if you look how fast DVD wiped out VHS, or how fast digital cameras overtook film cameras then you have some idea what's coming for audio. If I could download all my favorite artists in 24/192 or 24/96 then I would never ever play another disk....EVER!
    If a record company executive read this, he would be trembling in his boots big time. The record companies make a small fraction on downloads than they make on physical disc, and they don't even want to deal with a world that is financially smaller than it is now.

    We're not there yet, but even 5 years from now we'll be looking at a good percentage of people using only downloaded music. The days of disks are numbered!!
    I have heard this all before, but I don't think it is going to happen. I just got my latest NDP report, and music downloads(and Itunes specifically) have been seeing a downward trend in sales of late. As a matter of fact rental downloads and digital sales are all heading south, and have been for a couple of quarters. Also the Google/Verizon deal has put quite a dent in the net neutrality push, so nobody seems to know where internet commerce is truly headed. If other internet concerns and telecoms start making deals like Google and Verizon have, then I don't think there is going to be a real clear pathway for digital downloading, as everyone is going to be protecting their turf, while their turf is actually eroding away. Secondly both the telecom's and cable companies are not spending the necessary investment money to speed the internet up as a whole, and without that component, digital downloads is headed for a very slow and rocky way.

    I think five years is far too soon for a all digital download world, and I think it is farther off than most would be willing to admit. I have 6TB of raid storage now for when the day comes, but I think it will come when it comes, but not within some of the rosy predictions I have been seeing.
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  24. #99
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Leave the analogy aside, what's the elusive benchmark that vinyl has set, it's certainly not technical performance of any kind because by any objective measure it has been totally and completely surpassed by digital in every way.
    While I agree with what you are saying, I admit vinyl does some good things with music, especially when the mastering and cutting is in the hands of folks like Doug Sax and Bernie Grundman. However, even they admit those very things that it does well, are also the very things that do not make the medium very accurate when compared to the master tapes. This is an area where CD does well, and Blu ray disc absolutely excels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Sure, in the same way that electric trains have miserably failed to capture the romanticism of steam locomotives but on all performance fronts, the steam loco has been totally and completely surpassed.
    Wow, what an accurate description. Excellent post

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