It's not Live

[Wireworm5]

I for one wanted to disagree which people who say a home stereo can't sound like live. I always made the arguement that with a good system played at the same decibel level of a 'live' event it could be very convincingly real. But last night after a 12 hour shift of work I listened to the stereo. My state of mind was very tired. In this condition it was obvious to me the directionality of the sound. I mean I could tell where the trumpet sound was coming from. The sound was accurate and good just the same. But a 'live' event would not be this directional. I suppose I would still be able to tell that the band was in front of me, just not sound restricted to a box.
But do we really want the real thing in our homes? No we don't, we want our privacy and not five band members in our home every night. Music is about conveying ideas and emotion, so its not critical to have the band in our homes. My cat simply cannot grasp the concept of music, she has no interest whatsoever. Music is not just sounds, something I believe animals can't grasp. Even so the more true to live sound gives me more satisfaction than listening to say a low resolution system.
O.K. I'm not making sense so I will stop here.

[Florian]

Well it takes a bit of a mental help to get there ;-)
If the recording is good there are systems that can get very very close but it ultimately depends on the person itself. This "directonality" you speak of can be made completely gone with some big planars and MBL's

Just a tini tiny bit of something, but music doesn't life in boxes......please dont shoot me now.

[kexodusc]

Well it takes a bit of a mental help to get there ;-)
If the recording is good there are systems that can get very very close but it ultimately depends on the person itself. This "directonality" you speak of can be made completely gone with some big planars and MBL's

Just a tini tiny bit of something, but music doesn't life in boxes......please dont shoot me now.

If the speaker design is very well executed, the sound SHOULDN'T be restricted to boxes.
It has been my experience that speakers that sound "trapped in boxes" are often not set up/positioned right, are too close to walls or are too far away from the listener, or have some serious fundamental design issues. In other words, not the box's fault at all.

Geez, I made a small, 6 inch tall $20 speaker last year that used 1 full-range driver and slope shaping filter circuit to clean up a few issues. Basically a Home-Theater-In-A-Box design that sounds much better than most HTIB's you can buy in store. I wouldn't recommend them for critical music listening, but even those little things presented a 3 dimensional soundstage that stretched well outside the speaker cabinets.

I've had some speakers (my old PSB's) that didn't capture that however, and I could only get to sound right when used as nearfield monitors. I blame that on design execution, not the fact it had a box. Every speaker I've ever built has no problem disappearing in a room. Most visitors in my home theater always think 7 speakers are playing with the sub when it's in stereo mode. My 2-channel setup is a huge step up still.

For what it's worth, most the sound isn't being produced or directed in the box anyway.

Ever listen to a guitar? Strike a chord, and some of the sound "appears" to come from the source of the pick on the strings, but most of it comes from a wider, general area...nothing trapped in a box at all.

[GMichael]

My cat simply cannot grasp the concept of music, she has no interest whatsoever. Music is not just sounds, something I believe animals can't grasp. Even so the more true to live sound gives me more satisfaction than listening to say a low resolution system.
O.K. I'm not making sense so I will stop here.

I am sorry to hear/read that your cat is not a music lover. I have two cats. Each time I turn on music they scramble from where ever they were in the house to come sit in the middle of the living room. When I leave the room, they will stay there as long as the music is on. When I turn it off they get up and go in different directions to other rooms in the house.

We have a long way to go to make it sound like the band is in the room with us. But I sure do enjoy what we already have.

[Florian]

To Kex:

I am not speaking for all boxes, there are a few that can pull a good dissapearing act but in real life the instruments and not restricted to a 120 degree radiation pattern so for me personally i dont want to restrict them either. Most top end designs employ a dipole configuration and in my opinion it is critical for getting closer to a real reproduction.

[kexodusc]

To Kex:

I am not speaking for all boxes, there are a few that can pull a good dissapearing act but in real life the instruments and not restricted to a 120 degree radiation pattern so for me personally i dont want to restrict them either. Most top end designs employ a dipole configuration and in my opinion it is critical for getting closer to a real reproduction.

Boxed speakers don't radiate in a 120 degree pattern etiher. Full 360 degrees. Here's another test to support this.

Play some music through the speakers..walk behind them. You can still hear the midrange and high frequencies (at a reduced level relative the bass usually).

Give your friend an acoustic guitar...tell him to play a chord repeatedly. Walk behind him, and you'll notice the sound behaves in exactly the same way.

It's even more noticeable with woodwinds and brass instruments.
The one exception is drums to a certain extent, which tend to sound the same behind the drummer, but I don't find that speakers falsely present the way drums would sound in front of you. If the microphone captures it, and everything is true, the speaker should reproduce it.

I'm still torn on dipoles myself...dynamic loudspeaker, planar or whatever. I've heard some very impressive dipoles, but it was the fine resolution and tonal balance that I most enjoyed, not the radiation effects. Just me.

[Florian]

Well the speaker driver does not radiate in a 360 degree dispersion but the room effects help this immensly and this is where i see the problem. To get as close to the source as possible you cant use the help of the room to get much more dispersion since it alters the sound.

On the Apogees for instance you need to have them paralell to the rear wall, they know the bass will increase with thise but they designed the speaker so that the dipole bass cancelation effect reduces itself to none in order to restore the acoustic balance.

On a box speaker or whatever non-dipole the raditation pattern is limited by the box or the non-existing backwave and needs the room to do the rest which introduces frequency responce problems, time delay errors etc...

A VERY interesting speaker i heard where the 360 degree MBL's. For me a speaker with a box always sounds restricted and trapped, i dont know why

[kexodusc]

Well the speaker driver does not radiate in a 360 degree dispersion but the room effects help this immensly and this is where i see the problem. To get as close to the source as possible you cant use the help of the room to get much more dispersion since it alters the sound.

Sorry, Flo. Sound does indeed radiate 360. Ever been in an anechoic chamber? No matter...stand outside...play a speaker. Stand behind the speaker. If you hear the sound, that's proof that the sound is travelling behind the speaker...no reflections or room acoustics needed...if the sound didn't travel behind, you wouldn't hear it.

On a box speaker or whatever non-dipole the raditation pattern is limited by the box or the non-existing backwave and needs the room to do the rest which introduces frequency responce problems, time delay errors etc...

There are some differences between dipole and direct radiating speakers, but the fact there's a back wave isn't necessarily a benefit or disadvantage. The goal is the sound perceived at the listener's ears. There's numerous ways of transmitting that sound. In most cases, the room will come into play and alter the sound. Lucky for us, most room interactions aren't picked up by our brain because they occur too long after the initial fundamental sound, or aren't directed with enough intensity to our ears.

A VERY interesting speaker i heard where the 360 degree MBL's. For me a speaker with a box always sounds restricted and trapped, i dont know why

Goes back to ketchup I guess...I don't hear this effect...and I don't hear any great release or opening up of the sound when I listen to Maggies or Martin Logan's or whatever...I hear a lot of bad speakers that happen to be in boxes, but blaming the box is often unfair (of course, at the lower pricepoints there are a lot of poorly built, over damped boxes, too).

[Feanor]

I... But a 'live' event would not be this directional. I suppose I would still be able to tell that the band was in front of me, just not sound restricted to a box.
But do we really want the real thing in our homes? ....

I believe a decent, well-set up multi-channel system will get you a lot close to live performance -- always depending on quality of the recording itself, (that ubiquitous caveat).

My own experimentation has lead me to believe this. But personally I think it is most important in the case of large-scale works: symphonies and, especially, choral works. Consequently I seek out good performances of these things on SACD, though CD is fine for chamber music and jazz. (I have absolutely not opinion regarding an pop genre.)

All this said, l listen mostly to my main system which is stereo. A M/C system of comparable quality would be too expense and difficult to set up for me at the present time.

[Resident Loser]

...to recreate a live event is with binaural recordings and playback through 'phones...maybe a sub to provide that portion of bass we feel more than hear.

Instrument attack, overall dynamics and spatial cues that we experience in a live venue is not translated to the extent required for the ear/brain connection to accept them as live via any recorded medium for a host of reasons. Of course, beyond the shortcomings of the software, there are other factors at work.

jimHJJ(...no matter how expensive your rig, it just ain't gonna' happen...)

[Wireworm5]

to GMichael:
Are you certain the cats are there for the music? They are social animals and may be there 'cause you're there and the music has nothing to do with it. My cat will sit with me as well but many times will run from the room. I think the loud decibels hurt her sensitive ears. You know she can hear the tiniest of sounds from one floor above when I get up to leave the room she'll be at the top of the stairs waiting. When she does sit with me, some times I will tap the beat of the music or play the keyboards on her back. I don't think she associates this with the music and indicates to me that music means nothing to her. She's not the least bit interested in tv either even if one of her ancestors is on the screen.
As for sound from a box speakers. Normally it doesn't sound this way to me, but last night it did. I have 180 degree soundfield with no gaps from multiple speakers. I don't have ideal speaker placement due to a long narrow room. So this would be the main reason for directional clues. And my 100's tend to dominate my other speakers slightly when played loud another directional clue.

[GMichael]

to GMichael:
Are you certain the cats are there for the music? They are social animals and may be there 'cause you're there and the music has nothing to do with it. My cat will sit with me as well but many times will run from the room.]
.

I guess that cats are as different as people. Mine will stay in the living room with the music even when I leave to do other things. They only leave once I turn off the music.