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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
He often talks about the virtures of tube amps on the midrange, but is less glowing about their low bass, and extended treble response. I personally would rather have very good wide bandwidth performance, than just a highlight on the midrange.
Therein lies the preference factor. My VTLs do not have to deal with the back EMF issue presented by cone woofers and exhibit superb harmonic richness in the bottom octaves. While I could hear the ultrasonic burglar alarm in the hi-fi shop where I worked in the 70s at age 18, my hearing at age 49 cuts off above about 15k or so anyway. For me, it is all about the middle eight octaves!
I bought a Threshold Stasis 3 amp back in 1981 (that still soldiers on driving double New Advents in my vintage system). It was universally praised in its day as performing very well at both frequency extremes. Back then, I really had no idea what Harry Pearson meant when he said that the Audio Research D-150 was superior in the midrange. The midrange? Doesn't every amp do OK there? With far more musical experience and maturity, I finally understand that the answer is NO.
rw
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Originally Posted by Bernd
"Different Strokes for different folks" is the truest thing you said in this thread. And by you reeling off all that you know,tasted,own or have done it's purely unsubstantiated writings
When someone actually owns the stuff, how unsubstantiated is that? After all, weren't you the one who blew out the line that your cartridge costs more than my entire system, sight unseen, ears unheard, and without any background whatsoever of any modification or upgrades? Weren't you the one who assumed I know nothing of high end audio. don't be upset that your ignorance led you to assume so much, but know so little about my audio history, or system.
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and has nothing to do with me trying to find out about MC. Like the studio is ready in 2008. That's two years, what are you building?
A post production facility for both film and music mixing and mastering. Its to replace the one I owned for more than ten years.
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Maybe we just hear differently and if it wasn't raining right now I would attach a garden hose and go sprinkle the Lawn.:cornut:
Your a hoot
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You will never convince me that black is white and white is black, I will have to find out for myself. And as for time served on here, what has that got to do with anything?
Have fun with your system and your future studio and a good day to you.:)
Bernd:16:
Can someone explain to me when I ever mentioned shades as opposed to audio? If you are going to evaluate equipment, make sure the room is not the problem. If you are going to evaluate software, make sure you pick software that is appropriate to a 5.1 evaluation, not a 2ch repurpose to multichannel. This is all I have stated from the very beginning.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Therein lies the preference factor. My VTLs do not have to deal with the back EMF issue presented by cone woofers and exhibit superb harmonic richness in the bottom octaves. While I could hear the ultrasonic burglar alarm in the hi-fi shop where I worked in the 70s at age 18, my hearing at age 49 cuts off above about 15k or so anyway. For me, it is all about the middle eight octaves!
I bought a Threshold Stasis 3 amp back in 1981 (that still soldiers on driving double New Advents in my vintage system). It was universally praised in its day as performing very well at both frequency extremes. Back then, I really had no idea what Harry Pearson meant when he said that the Audio Research D-150 was superior in the midrange. The midrange? Doesn't every amp do OK there? With far more musical experience and maturity, I finally understand that the answer is NO.
rw
Since my hearing does not cut off at low as your, the mids and upper octaves carry equal weight, becuase I not only do I like the clairty of the mids, but I like the air and open qualities an extended high end can have on the audio signal.
My amps have a high damping factor in the Low bass. I am not experienced enough in speaker building to fully explain how transmission line subs work. All that I know is that I can see with a accelerometer that my drivers exibit little to no overhang after the signal stops. The designer of my subs and main speakers (or redesigner if you will) specifically recommends amps with a high damping factor in the LF to enhance the performance of his sub designs. My listening test with tube amps(regardless of price), and the subs in my mains shows that the bass is flabby, ill defined, and not controlled when compared to my regular amps. That is why I have chosen SS amps over tube amps for my setup. Bass is the foudation of music, if it is not well done, then it doesn't matter if the mids are sweet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
My amps have a high damping factor in the Low bass. I am not experienced enough in speaker building to fully explain how transmission line subs work. All that I know is that I can see with a accelerometer that my drivers exibit little to no overhang after the signal stops. The designer of my subs and main speakers (or redesigner if you will) specifically recommends amps with a high damping factor in the LF to enhance the performance of his sub designs.
No doubt that conventional dynamic woofers benefit from a low source impedance amp. Actually, the Onkyo M-501s have only fairly moderate damping factor (df=60 according to their website) which is a good indication that they didn't go overboard with NFB. As opposed to the horrible sounding pro amps with DFs in the thousands.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
My listening test with tube amps(regardless of price), and the subs in my mains shows that the bass is flabby, ill defined, and not controlled when compared to my regular amps. That is why I have chosen SS amps over tube amps for my setup. Bass is the foudation of music, if it is not well done, then it doesn't matter if the mids are sweet.
Beginning with your speaker of choice and finding a suitable amp is the way I went as well. Our outcomes are different due to the nature of our speaker choices and likely, our musical tastes. My preferences do not rule out tube amps as did yours. My amps possess a multi-layered dimensional magic with voices, woodwinds, brass, and percussion I just do not hear with comparable SS designs.
Vive la difference!
rw
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Sorry, folks
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Originally Posted by Feanor
I just read Andrew Quint's article in The Absolute Sound, Issue 162, with the above title. Quint has hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.
He says, "... I don't think it's the wider and more nuanced dynamics, the truer instrumental and vocal timbres, and the greater detail that high-resolution brings to the table".
...
Friends, forget vinyl. For that matter, for get tubes, kilobuck cables, and tweaks of minimal, not to say, imaginary benefit. For real improvement look to multichannel.
I guess it's all my fault from the beginning that this thread has degenerated into the usual squabble about SS vs. tubes and vinyl vs. digital. I shouldn't have mentioned them, though perhaps it would have made no difference.
Really, all I really meant to say was that MC is relatively a greater improvement than the difference betweens between these things. I didn't mean to imply that there were no SS/tube or vinyl/digital differences, nor that one was better than the other.
Hey, I suspect there are a few MC tube preamps out there, and tube amps are a dime a dozen, (in a manner of speaking). So if you must have tubes, it doesn't necessarily rule out MC.
As for preferring vinyl, well I guess you could track down a few of the Quadraphonic discs!! :ihih: :cornut:
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Originally Posted by Feanor
As for preferring vinyl, well I guess you could track down a few of the Quadraphonic discs!! :ihih: :cornut:
I have 2 discs ;-)
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Originally Posted by Feanor
I guess it's all my fault from the beginning that this thread has degenerated into the usual squabble about SS vs. tubes and vinyl vs. digital. I shouldn't have mentioned them, though perhaps it would have made no difference.
Really, all I really meant to say was that MC is relatively a greater improvement than the difference betweens between these things. I didn't mean to imply that there were no SS/tube or vinyl/digital differences, nor that one was better than the other.
Hey, I suspect there are a few MC tube preamps out there, and tube amps are a dime a dozen, (in a manner of speaking). So if you must have tubes, it doesn't necessarily rule out MC.
As for preferring vinyl, well I guess you could track down a few of the Quadraphonic discs!! :ihih: :cornut:
Feanor my old buddy it is not your fault at all. A conversation is a living thing and to my mind it should explore other avenues. I think I am to blame as much as the next man(Woman) for taking threads of course. Otherwise just imagine how two dimensional it would become, and how would we gain knowledge. I for once have gained quite a bit of insight through E-Stats, Kexs, and Sirr TTs postings on this thread. Might not agree with all of them but thats life. It will certainly help me to evaluate my next two auditions into MC (to bring it back on track).
I only ever owned two Quadrophonic Discs (one was by Nektar-Remember the Future the other I can not recall). A great recording the Nektar one. I have got it now on Vinyl in the 2 CH. I even dabbled in the Quadrophonic in the 70s and I didn't like it then.:ciappa: Some Japanese amp I can't recall Revox Speakers and a Dual TT.:confused5:
Have a good week.
Peace
Bernd:16:
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Originally Posted by Bernd
one was by Nektar-Remember the Future the other I can not recall)
Now there's a piece of music I haven't thought about in a while. Ages ago, I wore out my vinyl copy. Most folks wouldn't understand how you could combine yodeling and rock music!
rw
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I know. Allan "Taff"Freeman became quiet a famous DJ I think.
As I remeber right the Record came in two guises. One was done by the Passport Label and one I think by Bacillus, who also released the Quad version. The Bacillus cover also felt very different almost like brushed satin. I still have that one here.
Must play it tonight. I feel a prog evening at the horizion.
And with this I have Post # 1000
Peace
Bernd:16:
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Guffaw, chortle, snicker...
...and hails of derisive laughter...
Stereo, multi-channel, tubes, solid state, box speakers, planars...
It's all very well and good...too bad your software s*cks...with a capital s*ck...
And Florian, you still act like a pompous, ego-centric, twit...a status you seem to relish ...well, you certainly got something for your vast expenditure...Out of curiosity, O! music lover, have you ever picked up an instrument (musical that is) and and created something?
And as TtT rightly points out it's not 2-channel, it's binaural...
jimHJJ(...I think I'll rest now...all this foolishness takes a lot outta' ya'...)
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LOL and you lower yourself again.....do you ever stop?
I played the Xylophon for a while and visit many concerts. Propably the reason why i seek good equipment that can come close to sounding real while your still in the mud puddle cutting down people who can spend more money on good equipment that you watch with envy eyes....
I enjoy your posts...
PS: By the way, your still to stupid to correct the spelling mistakes in your quote....
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I lower...
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Originally Posted by Florian
LOL and you lower yourself again.....do you ever stop?
I played the Xylophon for a while and visit many concerts. Propably the reason why i seek good equipment that can come close to sounding real while your still in the mud puddle cutting down people who can spend more money on good equipment that you watch with envy eyes....
I enjoy your posts...
PS: By the way, your still to stupid to correct the spelling mistakes in your quote....
...myself?
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Originally Posted by Florian
...Most people on here are below a Onkyo 989 with lets say 7 B&W 800D's and some subwoofers. And that is a system neither of us would touch and listen to...
I come from systems past the 20K border and argue with members comming from 5K or below MC systems that have never heard and personally experience a higher end realm of 2 channel reproduction...
Xylophone eh? A real hep cat...NOT!
I have "visited" many concerts myself...although I actually attended them from start to finish and not merely visited them...in fact performed on well over 200 occasions, playing at various times: guitar, bass, keyboards and harmonica...I'm guessin' my ear is fairly well attuned to what is "real"...both from the perspective of listener AND performer...
FWIW, IMHO approx. 92% or so of the so-called reality available on commercial recordings can be had with 2-channel systems valued at around $1k...the limits are only in low-end extension and volume levels...very little else...
Does it make you feel more self-important to believe that there are those who envy you or your hi-fi? Don't flatter yourself...I myself couldn't shive a git...
I have around $4k invested in my 2-channel, primarily vinyl-based system...and for me it's quite satisfyingly sufficient to present that compromised, stereophonic version of reality captured whithin those gooves.
Adolph or Adolf, who really cares; it's the quote that counts...I suspect it irritates you and that's priceless...Oh and BTW, remedial English time: it's too stupid not "to stupid"...
jimHJJ(...unless, of course, someone were to be addressing something specifically to you...)
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Great Speakers for a really good price. I am tempted......:cornut:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...ayphotohosting
Peace
Bernd:16:
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Cool!
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Originally Posted by Bernd
They look good to me!
I like the quasi-horns on the tweeter; I suspect controlled dispersion is valid for multichannel in particular.
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2 Attachment(s)
Hi Guys,
I think I will post an update as my MC journey is over for the time being.
I listened to several set-ups from basic budget and bad to pretty expensive and sounding alright. However as for now MC has not convinced me.
First off what I thought would be a stumbling block turned out to be just that. I am used to a certain quality presentation from my Speakers and I find it difficult to experience the same presentation with lesser models. And I can't justify buying 5 ART Emotions. Which would not happen anyway as the second hurdle to overcome was the sound from behind. I can't get used to it, but I now have an understanding, I think, why MC users enjoy it so much.
But the biggest problem was this, I am an old fashioned Vinyl addict and to my mind the two (MC and Vinyl) just don't go. I might try again at a later date as it was enjoyable and informative and has lead me to my latest addition.:6:
On my travels I came across a most incredible CDP.:) I borrowed it and took it home and needless to say I ordered one and it got installed last night. It wipes the floor with my Ayre CX-7. It is the most musical CDP:5: I have ever owned. All the qualities of the Zanden without being too safe and boring. The wide gap between a CDP and my TT has just shrunk a little bit.
The new machine is the "Electrocompaniet EMC1-UP 24/192".
Thanks to all for your input it was a fun project. But most of all enjoy whatever musical path you have chosen.:cornut:
Peace
Bernd:16:
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Oh well, maybe someday
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernd
Hi Guys,
I think I will post an update as my MC journey is over for the time being.
I listened to several set-ups from basic budget and bad to pretty expensive and sounding alright. However as for now MC has not convinced me.
...
But the biggest problem was this, I am an old fashioned Vinyl addict and to my mind the two (MC and Vinyl) just don't go. I might try again at a later date as it was enjoyable and informative and has lead me to my latest addition.
On my travels I came across a most incredible CDP.:) I borrowed it and took it home and needless to say I ordered one and it got installed last night. It wipes the floor with my Ayre CX-7. It is the most musical CDP I have ever owned.
...
The new machine is the "Electrocompaniet EMC1-UP 24/192".
Thanks to all for your input it was a fun project. But most of all enjoy whatever musical path you have chosen.
Peace
Bernd
I agree: lots of vinyl is a problem!! (Just kidding.) :wink5:
Congrats on your new CDP. Boy, oh boy, I wish I could afford a posh unit like that but it will never happen :sad: Of course, it still doesn't do MC.
Keep enjoying the music in any case.
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Originally Posted by Feanor
I agree: lots of vinyl is a problem!! (Just kidding.) :wink5:
Congrats on your new CDP. Of course, it still doesn't do MC.
Keep enjoying the music in any case.
That could be the reason why it is so musical!!!:ihih: :6: :5: :17: :23:
I enjoyed the trip though. Very interesting.
Have a great weekend.
Peace
Bernd:16:
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Hey B,
Congrats on the new equipment. That is an absolutely beautiful unit!
Well, the journey is over for now, and I suppose the results were predictable. I would, however, give you all the credit in the world for doing what most folks can't or won't do;most find it easier just to pick a side and dogmatically support it without ever having seen how "the other half lives". Most importantly, I'm glad you had fun...
Cheers and good listening,
M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernd
Hi Guys,
I think I will post an update as my MC journey is over for the time being.
I listened to several set-ups from basic budget and bad to pretty expensive and sounding alright. However as for now MC has not convinced me.
First off what I thought would be a stumbling block turned out to be just that. I am used to a certain quality presentation from my Speakers and I find it difficult to experience the same presentation with lesser models. And I can't justify buying 5 ART Emotions. Which would not happen anyway as the second hurdle to overcome was the sound from behind. I can't get used to it, but I now have an understanding, I think, why MC users enjoy it so much.
But the biggest problem was this, I am an old fashioned Vinyl addict and to my mind the two (MC and Vinyl) just don't go. I might try again at a later date as it was enjoyable and informative and has lead me to my latest addition.:6:
On my travels I came across a most incredible CDP.:) I borrowed it and took it home and needless to say I ordered one and it got installed last night. It wipes the floor with my Ayre CX-7. It is the most musical CDP:5: I have ever owned. All the qualities of the Zanden without being too safe and boring. The wide gap between a CDP and my TT has just shrunk a little bit.
The new machine is the "Electrocompaniet EMC1-UP 24/192".
Thanks to all for your input it was a fun project. But most of all enjoy whatever musical path you have chosen.:cornut:
Peace
Bernd:16:
Somehow deep inside of me I knew this would be the outcome. It takes an OPEN mind to journey out of your comfort level. It also takes a desire without all of the audiophile blather that can often fog up ones mind. For some old schoolers this jouney it just to difficult to make because they just cannot let go of old familiar technology, and try to embrace a new one. They throw up consistant and persistant aruguement and judgement values that in reality mean nothing, but to themselves justifies staying completely within their comfort level. The price of the speakers and or electronics is always the excuse, if it is not high enough, or of a certain level in price, it is just not good enough for me. The price concious always think this way. The reason I know, because I used to be one of them. Now the price has to transfer to the ears, if not, its just overpriced equipment. I don't know, as bad a price snob as I was, I guess I was ready to get pass that, and enjoy being closer to live concert reality rather than just buying more expensive two channel stuff.
When you take a journey of discovery, you have to take it without predjudice. You were not ready for this journey, which is why your never arrived passed comparisons to your own rig. Good luck to ya, I hope you stay right where you are until you are truely ready to move forward.
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holy kaneekiwa. what an interesting thread this has been to read....almost as much fun as having explosive diarrhea. It would appear that there is no resolution to this great debate, nor will there ever....2ch will be on that side of the fence and multi-channel will stay on this side of the fence. Uh oh. Let's debate ...maybe 2ch will be on this side and multi-channel will be on that side....we better argue to see who is on this and who is on that side of the fence...that might produce more results than the original argument.
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PS: By the way, your still to stupid to correct the spelling mistakes in your quote....
I know you're not a native English speaker but...
Remarkable.
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Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
holy kaneekiwa. what an interesting thread this has been to read....almost as much fun as having explosive diarrhea. It would appear that there is no resolution to this great debate, nor will there ever....2ch will be on that side of the fence and multi-channel will stay on this side of the fence. Uh oh. Let's debate ...maybe 2ch will be on this side and multi-channel will be on that side....we better argue to see who is on this and who is on that side of the fence...that might produce more results than the original argument.
Yuck.
I'll continue to enjoy both.
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I nice read on the back page of S&V about MC and The Beatles.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Somehow deep inside of me I knew this would be the outcome. It takes an OPEN mind to journey out of your comfort level. It also takes a desire without all of the audiophile blather that can often fog up ones mind. For some old schoolers this jouney it just to difficult to make because they just cannot let go of old familiar technology, and try to embrace a new one. They throw up consistant and persistant aruguement and judgement values that in reality mean nothing, but to themselves justifies staying completely within their comfort level. The price of the speakers and or electronics is always the excuse, if it is not high enough, or of a certain level in price, it is just not good enough for me. The price concious always think this way. The reason I know, because I used to be one of them. Now the price has to transfer to the ears, if not, its just overpriced equipment. I don't know, as bad a price snob as I was, I guess I was ready to get pass that, and enjoy being closer to live concert reality rather than just buying more expensive two channel stuff.
When you take a journey of discovery, you have to take it without predjudice. You were not ready for this journey, which is why your never arrived passed comparisons to your own rig. Good luck to ya, I hope you stay right where you are until you are truely ready to move forward.
Thank you Doctor!
You talk like it is some form of a scientific trip. Audio is fun and brings enjoyment to me, and that how it will stay. If something sounds good to me I will keep it. Nothing to do with a closed mind. Your post reads more as if you are stuck in acomfort zone and have fallen hook, line and sinker for the latest marketing ploy. Or you're just so superior with your enlightened listening (as you should, owning and building a Mastering Studio). Amazing with such a time consumming project on your hand how much time you have giving out advice here. And what is so wrong with me liking Vinyl,Tubes and two channel that you get so excited.I am not alone in that.I apologise that my findings don't agree with your believes. That's life. I tried something and it didn't work out for me.And when you didn't agree with my findings you come out with some nonsense about closed mind and not being ready for the journey. Honestly, do you really think that I have so much time to waste as to spent hours driving getting to and listening to some MC set-ups when my mind has already been made up. Get real. So long my MC friend, but most of all enjoy the music.
Peace
Bernd:16:
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