-
Isolation Question - Vibrapods, Spikes, etc.
A while back I played around with Mappleshade brass isolators, their least expensive ones, and didn't really think they made much of a difference so I sold them. For my turntable I build a DIY platform using feet from an Audio Refinement CD player and it did make a slight difference in improving the tightness of the sound, although the turntable itself already does a decent job on its own.
I now have a different rack and was thinking of revisiting isolation devices for the preamp & other components. The mushy vibrapods are one option and brass spikes another. Now for a turntable, or even a CD player, I can see the point in that these have moving parts and spinning disks, but why would a preamp or amp need these? What is the physics behind this and does it really make a difference in sound? I've read the manufacturer's websites with claims of widenened soundstage and all that jazz, but frankly I didn't get that with the Mapleshade cones. Is this just snake oil? What is everyone else's experience with either of these?
One more point, the manufacturers rarely recommend different pods/cones for specific equipment, suggesting that they should be used for every component in my rack. Some even suggest putting them under my power center. This sounds a bit fishy to me and certainly would get expensive too. Any thoughts?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
A while back I played around with Mappleshade brass isolators, their least expensive ones, and didn't really think they made much of a difference so I sold them. For my turntable I build a DIY platform using feet from an Audio Refinement CD player and it did make a slight difference in improving the tightness of the sound, although the turntable itself already does a decent job on its own.
I now have a different rack and was thinking of revisiting isolation devices for the preamp & other components. The mushy vibrapods are one option and brass spikes another. Now for a turntable, or even a CD player, I can see the point in that these have moving parts and spinning disks, but why would a preamp or amp need these? What is the physics behind this and does it really make a difference in sound? I've read the manufacturer's websites with claims of widenened soundstage and all that jazz, but frankly I didn't get that with the Mapleshade cones. Is this just snake oil? What is everyone else's experience with either of these?
One more point, the manufacturers rarely recommend different pods/cones for specific equipment, suggesting that they should be used for every component in my rack. Some even suggest putting them under my power center. This sounds a bit fishy to me and certainly would get expensive too. Any thoughts?
If it sounds fishy, it probably is. Most of that stuff is snake oil anyway
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
The mushy vibrapods are one option and brass spikes another. Now for a turntable, or even a CD player, I can see the point in that these have moving parts and spinning disks, but why would a preamp or amp need these? What is the physics behind this and does it really make a difference in sound?
I use isolation with my tube components because vibrations can be transmitted audibly as microphonics. I also use isolation with my CDP as mechanical transports are sensitive to vibration as well. I could SEE that happen this past weekend listening to HP's system at Seacliff. His turntable sits atop one of those automated isolation platforms designed initially for scanning electron microscopes. During an especially bass heavy passage, the platform instantaneously "corrected" itself (has a visual indicator along with an RS-232 output if you want to see the corrected waveforms on a monitor!)
As for spikes, I use them with my electrostats to improve low end response by resisting motion of the frame.
rw
-
This may be a dumb question but can vibrapods (or their like) help with skipping I get when my kid "dances" to near the CD player?
thanks,
Karlen
-
I think this whole culture of tweaking is a carryover from the analog days when turntables and tape players benefited tremendously from simple adjustments. The turntable alone presented all kinds of tweaking possibilities with the overhang angle, the counterbalancing, VTA, etc. Tape decks needed constant maintenance and azimuth misalignments of less than 1 degree could audibly and measurably degrade the playback quality. With turntables, isolation was crucial to keeping room noises, feedback, and vibrations from audibly affecting the playback.
However, with solid state components and digital formats, the importance of isolation is not nearly as critical, yet the tweaking culture still persists and has taken on a life of its own with the escalating claims (and prices) that various isolating devices that are now available make. When you have audio reviews that claim that an equipment rack can render its own set of audio characteristics, then things have really gotten out of hand. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking because of how big a difference isolating devices can make with turntables and speakers.
Some isolators like those for speakers are indeed very effective, but they don't have to cost a lot to do their job effectively. Things available nowadays include isolation cones made out of carbon fiber that cost upwards of $75 each, or myrtle wood blocks for lifting cables off the floor that cost $10 each. They might do their job, but the question is how much more effective they are than a set of the original Mod Squad Tiptoe isolator cones that cost $3 each, or a 2x4 purchased from a local hardware store and cut up into blocks.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
I think this whole culture of tweaking is a carryover from the analog days when turntables and tape players benefited tremendously from simple adjustments. The turntable alone presented all kinds of tweaking possibilities with the overhang angle, the counterbalancing, VTA, etc. Tape decks needed constant maintenance and azimuth misalignments of less than 1 degree could audibly and measurably degrade the playback quality. With turntables, isolation was crucial to keeping room noises, feedback, and vibrations from audibly affecting the playback.
However, with solid state components and digital formats, the importance of isolation is not nearly as critical, yet the tweaking culture still persists and has taken on a life of its own with the escalating claims (and prices) that various isolating devices that are now available make. When you have audio reviews that claim that an equipment rack can render its own set of audio characteristics, then things have really gotten out of hand. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking because of how big a difference isolating devices can make with turntables and speakers.
Some isolators like those for speakers are indeed very effective, but they don't have to cost a lot to do their job effectively. Things available nowadays include isolation cones made out of carbon fiber that cost upwards of $75 each, or myrtle wood blocks for lifting cables off the floor that cost $10 each. They might do their job, but the question is how much more effective they are than a set of the original Mod Squad Tiptoe isolator cones that cost $3 each, or a 2x4 purchased from a local hardware store and cut up into blocks.
True true. I agree, but of course all those expensive tweaks are bound to work if you just convince yourself that they're helping something
-
I'm not trying to steal this topic, but is there any value to using those synthetic/rubber isolation/vibration absorbing feet (not spikes) under a subwoofer. My sub sits on capret over a wood floor. These are cheep so I wouldn't loose sleep if I tried it and did not hear any improvement, but I would appreciate first hand experience from someone that tried this. Thanks for your advice.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tahitijack
I'm not trying to steal this topic, but is there any value to using those synthetic/rubber isolation/vibration absorbing feet (not spikes) under a subwoofer. My sub sits on capret over a wood floor. These are cheep so I wouldn't loose sleep if I tried it and did not hear any improvement, but I would appreciate first hand experience from someone that tried this. Thanks for your advice.
I use 1.25" thick Flagstone/Quarry Stone slabs under all my speakers and then the spikes on my Danes. I use 1/8 sheet rubber between stones and JM Labs bookshelf speakers. I have my Stratos amp on a slab and isolated with tennis balls between slab and rack. I just put together a HT setup and now have a 12" Mirage sub. I plan to get another slab of stone to isolate it from the floor.
For all components, I got a few sheets of 3/8" thick Sorbothane from McMasterCarr and cut it up into 3" squares. I removed all the chincy rubber feet from components and use the Sorbothane.
I am not 100% sure about the component isolation except for my Tube Pre as the above poster talked about micrvibrations and tube equipment. I can tell you that by puttint my Dynaudio 82s with their spikes up on the stone slabs, I had a great improvement in bass reproduction. The controll and clarity was increased while the boominess and floor vibrations were reduced to nill. I highly recomend decoupling speakers from the floor in this way.
Brian
-
I've been meaning to get some of that sorbothane. It's not too expensive. I know McMaster has a variety of sizes and thicknesses, I'm tempted to get a sheet big enough to make a record mat with some room to spare for putting on other things to make my own cheap version of some of the "sorbogel" mats out there that cost $100 and see how it works :)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by emorphien
I've been meaning to get some of that sorbothane. It's not too expensive. I know McMaster has a variety of sizes and thicknesses, I'm tempted to get a sheet big enough to make a record mat with some room to spare for putting on other things to make my own cheap version of some of the "sorbogel" mats out there that cost $100 and see how it works :)
Since Sorbothane is the most energy absorbing material in the world, it does work.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
Since Sorbothane is the most energy absorbing material in the world, it does work.
Duh.
It works, but whether it actually sounds good, or flat or otherwise is TBD.
I ordered a sheet anyway because I have a lot of other things I'll be using it for. A DIY record mat among them just for giggles.
-
I realize speakers need to be hard-coupled to something solid (i.e. spiked) for best sound, but I'm more curious about components.
What I'm hearing is that anything that rotates or vibrates (CD players, Tubes, TT, etc.), can effectively be isolated from what it's sitting on with sorbotane ("the most energy absorbing material in the world"). But the real question is whether it improves the sound. Mappleshade will have you believe that their brass-spiked isolators (the opposite of Sorbotane), are the thing to use. Since these are two entirely different approaches, certainly there must be some concensus on what to use.
Wouldn't hard-coupling (like the Mappleshade isolators) actually emphasize the vibration both to & from the component? And if so, would that tighten the sound or distort it? Likewise, using mushy feet (Sorbotane) could very well 'mush' the detail level but also isolate vibrations. Presuming that the rest of the system (speakers, amps) is highly detailed and of reasonable quality, are any of these isolation methods audible? And if so, in what way?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by emorphien
Duh.
It works, but whether it actually sounds good, or flat or otherwise is TBD.
I ordered a sheet anyway because I have a lot of other things I'll be using it for. A DIY record mat among them just for giggles.
I guess I should have elaborated a bit. Sorbothane absorbs Vibration. Not sure if you will notice the change in sound.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Wouldn't hard-coupling (like the Mappleshade isolators) actually emphasize the vibration both to & from the component? And if so, would that tighten the sound or distort it? Likewise, using mushy feet (Sorbotane) could very well 'mush' the detail level but also isolate vibrations. Presuming that the rest of the system (speakers, amps) is highly detailed and of reasonable quality, are any of these isolation methods audible? And if so, in what way?
Brass is used for wind instruments, but it is used in mechanical assemblies to reduce vibration and wear. I wouldn't be surprised if the brass worked better on turntables. I would think that sorbothane would be better suited for tube equipment. What strikes me is all the audio racks with glass shelves. What kind of density and vibration absorbing qualities does a thin pc of glas have?
Let us know if you test them both.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
Brass is used for wind instruments, but it is used in mechanical assemblies to reduce vibration and wear. I wouldn't be surprised if the brass worked better on turntables. I would think that sorbothane would be better suited for tube equipment. What strikes me is all the audio racks with glass shelves. What kind of density and vibration absorbing qualities does a thin pc of glas have?
Let us know if you test them both.
Hey Hyfi,It's interesting as I live awefully close to where you are.I have mettings up that way on jamesway rd off of countyline rd.However,don't pay it that much attention as I'm not looking for a date.
-
Maybe just a drink and some music?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergymunster
Hey Hyfi,It's interesting as I live awefully close to where you are.I have mettings up that way on jamesway rd off of countyline rd.However,don't pay it that much attention as I'm not looking for a date.
I'm near Bristol and Davisville. Where do you hail from?
-
I went a the 'cheap-o' route with my vibration control, but still noticed improved results. Essentially what I did was take the fabric that is typically used to line kitchen drawers...you can buy it really cheap at just about any Bed, Bath, etc. type of store. This stuff works great because it makes everyone on top of it stay exactly where it should...still. Then I constructed custom fit rubber legs for my components w/ chair leg fittings, which work beautifully when used with the liner fabric. The end result is absolutely NO movement from any of my gear, which has greatly reduced 'noise' from jitter. From my DVD player I noticed a huge improvement in the overall picture mainly due to keeping the picture steady and solid. The same goes for playing CD's,which now have a much smoother sound. Everything else is greatly improved too, but in more specific ways.
While this might not have cost nearly what some pay for certain tweaks...it maximized my gear for only a few bucks and that's worth it in my book!
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
I'm near Bristol and Davisville. Where do you hail from?
Between Counyline RD and Horshum Rd by 309.The boom town now,also known as Montgomeryville.
-
I see several posts about the value or lack of value of vibration control devices but, not a lot of discussion about the differences in purpose and application between elastic feet and spikes.
Here is may take on these things:
Spikes are not isolators, they are designed to rigidly couple a box or device to the floor or shelf on which it sits, whereas elestomeric isolators such as Sorbetane et al, are designed to isolate a box or device from the floor or shelf on which it sits.
Spikes are not mechanical diodes, they do not transmit energy in only one direction. So if a sensitive device is placed on a shelf that already has vibration in it, spikes are most likely the wrong answer.
Lets assume your CD player like mine, occasionally vibrates quite a lot due to unbalanced CDs. If it sits on a rigid surface then spikes will help stop some of the vibration by coupling the player to the shelf. Conversely if this same player shares a shelf with a vacuum tube pre-amp, either isolate the pre-amp from the shelf (elastomeric devices) or isolate the player from the shelf. None of these devices are perfect, occasionally the non-intuitve solution will work better.
While solid state gear is far less sensitive to vibration than tube gear, the sensitivity is not zero. Capacitors and coils can be quite microphonic, additionally if your gear has any potentiometers, minimizing any vibration that might reach the wipers is a good thing. In each case, protecting them from outside mechanical vibration or coupling internal vibration to a sink using spikes can be a good idea.
Many of the audiophile grade of vibration control devices are very expensive, cheap cones or points are easy to find, sometimes the cheapest rubber feet from a hardware store will be perfect. If there's an old military surplus store near you, they often have isolators designed to protect electronic gear from the vibration of warfare. The Audiophile grade stuff is on the whole quite pretty, if that's worth something to you then there's nothing wrong with using it.
Usually the further forward in the chain, the greater the benefit from controlling vibration. For example phono pre-amps have a lot of gain, they need a low vibration environment to work at their best.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
I guess I should have elaborated a bit. Sorbothane absorbs Vibration. Not sure if you will notice the change in sound.
I'm not sure either, but for $23 I get a 12x12 sheet which is more than I need for some other projects anyway. So I can try a record mat and cut it up if I need it.
I've got it cut to a doughnut now, but I'll wait until tomorrow or the weekend to listen and see if it really makes a difference. I suspect not, but since it's not really going to cost me much otherwise if I just cut it up further, it's a much cheaper way to test it out than to buy the Audioquest version for nearly $100 which I'd never do in the first place. $100... who are they kidding? :lol:
Sounds nice so far, anyway.
-
Hyfi's comment about a vibration transfer to glass shelf is interesting.
Some friends just moved into in a small home and the only way they could set up their home theater was in a very nice custome built-in wall cabinet. which the previous owner had installed. They placed the front left right and center speakers behind grill cloth doors framing the opening for the plasma. Rears are mounted a couple of feet below the ceiling on the rear wall. The limits, shape and size of the room and design of the cabinet forces the subwoofer into the lower protion of the cabinet behind a grill cloth door. Obviously the subwoofer sets off cabinet vibrations during low freq effects. Could putting speakers and the sub on glass pannels solve the vibration problem?
I have seen adds and articals on custom intalltions, where cabinets were built to house all the front speakers including the subwoofer with some type of insulation placed around the subwoofer. Would the use of sorbathane or other insolation materials in the subwoofer compartment help reduce vibration transfer to the cabinet. I have a feeling this won't work because the vibrations are probably casued by the sound waves and/air moved by subwoofer. Unfortunately the obvious and easy fix would be to set the sub somewere else in the room (there is no place) or buy a new smaller subwoofer and hide it in the room (there is no place or money for this). The alternative would appear to be to track down every cabinet vibration and tweek 'em until they all go a way.
Any advise for my friend.
-
To The Tahitijack;
(If my post appears twice blame the site, my first attempt just dissapeared)
It sounds as if significant investment has already been made in this system, it's worth the effort to realize the full potential of the entertainment center. The problems caused by serious wattage, sub woofers and Hollyood films are not trivial to solve.
The situation you describe is a worst case scenario. If the subs can be moved forward to be on a plane with the front of the cabinet, then mounting the subs in a vibration dampning sub frame could help. Watch out if the subs have ports not on the front face as the worst energy of all may come from these ports. The trouble is, most sub woofers need to be coupled (spiked) to the floor for best results.
The second alternative is to make a secondary isolated shelf system inside the main cabinet, a seperate enclosure box mounted to the back wall of the room and not connected to the cabinet is possible, only a very minimal clearance is needed and anyone with some woodworking skills can do this. On the internet you can easily find wall brackets that can support a hundred or more pounds each. The main cabinet has a large hole cut in the back and the secondary cabinet fits closely enough that from the front it appears as part of the main cabinet. Its best if the doors (if there are doors) stay attached to the main cabinet and not the sub cabinet to prevent coupling through the glass panels
Another alternative is the use of air platforms that could support the equipment secondary enclosure. An air platform is basically a bladder or tube (like a small inner tube) filled with low pressure air. Normally they have a box where the top and bottom are not connected and the equipment sits on the top of the air isolator. Some even have automatic pumps to replace air that is gradually lost (Try Audio Advisor or the internet)
All of these solution are significant structural changes to the set-up. I fear that just spikes or elastomeric feet won't really get you there. In a fancy system, nice loud sub-woofer effects are a sought after sonic effect. Other than esthetics the sub woofers don't need to be in the cabinet as sound source localization is poor for very low frequencies and a foot or two of offset will not matter much.
-
Thanks Hermanv
You are right about this being the worst case as far as subwoofer placement. I like the challenge of solving problems and hope I can help them get the most out of their investment (audio and home). I'm visiting my friends around July 4th and will have a look at their cabinet to see if we can build a second subwoofer support inside the subwoofer compartment. There are doors, with speaker cloth, covering the subwoofer opening so the internal modifications would not be seen. You brought back a memory. I recall reading about air cushions for adudio gear a few years back. They looked like miniture swimming pool floats.
-
Now that I re-read my post, I was not as clear as I could have been.
Because subwoofers often work best rigidly coupled to the floor, an isolation sub cabinet for them is problematical. I meant that maybe all the other electronics could be floated in a seperate cabinet, or that the second cabinet be isolated from the main cabinet and supported by the rear wall.
I found that working on isolation and room treatments on the whole provided as much improvement in my system sound as a whole bunch of cable or equipment upgrades. The good news is that done well, room improvements will also benefit any future equipment upgrades. Additionally room improvements don't wear out or need replacement.
In any event good luck, here's a chance to be clever with a solution, it will probably pay off well..
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
I'm near Bristol and Davisville. Where do you hail from?
Just one drink?Come on,that stuff is poision.
|