improving stereo sound for music

[romavictor]

Hey guys,

I have a dilemma here, got a denon 3808 and I'm quite happy with it for watching movies but I'm simply itching to improve on the stereo sound quality for music listening pleasure though. I was thinking of selling the denon and purchasing the Rotel rsx 1550. That way both my movies and music fidelity will increase or at least i hope so. But some guy at magnolia was telling me that all I need is a good stereo amp and to just use the denon as a pre out for the 2 main speakers.

does anyone have any ideas? I'm trying to keep things cost effective. Thanks.

[romavictor]

Hey guys,

I have a dilemma here, got a denon 3808 and I'm quite happy with it for watching movies but I'm simply itching to improve on the stereo sound quality for music listening pleasure though. I use Paradigm studio 40's as my mains. I was thinking of selling the denon and purchasing the Rotel rsx 1550. That way both my movies and music fidelity will increase or at least i hope so. But some guy at magnolia was telling me that all I need is a good stereo amp and to just use the denon as a pre out for the 2 main speakers.

does anyone have any ideas? I'm trying to keep things cost effective. Thanks.

[Mr Peabody]

You should see if your Rotel dealer would let you take the receiver home for an audition to be sure it will meet your expectations. Or, they should at least allow for a return if not happy.

To answer your question, I feel adding an amp will have minimal effect on your sound quality. This is a popular configuration but many fail to realize you are STILL using the receiver's preamp section. A receiver has to compromise on the preamp to meet it's price point as well as any where else inside. It's not like they say let's use a top notch preamp and insert a cheezy amp. You have to ask will the Rotel have a better preamp than the Denon? I would actually suggest taking a look at the Rotel 15nn, I can't remember the number, preamp processor and their digital multichannel power amp. I haven't heard the 1500 stuff yet but I'd have to believe that Rotel's separate preamp would sound better than the one in their receiver. But your ears can evaluate that. You might also take a look at other brands like the Marantz AV8003/MM8003 combo or separates by NAD. Preamps go up pretty good in price beyond some of the brands mentioned.

Another thing to look at that may or may not be as expensive, what are you using for playback? If you are just using the DVD player into your receiver you might try auditioning a good dedicated CD player and connect it via the analog inputs, red/white RCA, and bypass the decoding section which most receiver's offer that feature. You might be surprised at the improvement in sound stage and overall quality with a better source.

[Ajani]

The advice is good... You could do one of 3 things here:

1) Replace the Denon with a Rotel or some other higher quality receiver...

2) Keep the Denon and add just a 2 channel power amp... so the Denon would be a preamp

3) Keep the Denon and add an integrated amp with HT Bypass...

Option 1 has the advantage that you don't end up having 2 components, but it gives the least improvement in sound for $$$ spent....
Option 2 will be a much better way to improve sound, while keeping costs down....
Option 3 allows you to Bypass the Denon completely when you play music and will likely give you the best sound quality...

[Ajani]

Hopefully the mods will blend this thread with his other thread in the amp forum...

My response in that thread outlined 3 options... I'd suggest going for option 3 which addresses the issue Mr. Peabody raised about using the Denon as pre:

Option 3 - Buy an integrated amp with HT Bypass.... That way you bypass the Denon completely when you play music...

[This Guy]

does anyone have any ideas? I'm trying to keep things cost effective. Thanks.

Just using the pre-outs will definitely be more cost effective. Get a nice power amplifier with plenty of power and that would probably be what you're looking for. Something like this...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=248-747

would make you pretty happy. It's got great reviews and tons of people use them in their home systems. It's got enough power that you wouldn't need to buy another amp again, and it's pretty cheap. But of course you could spend more money on other "boutique" amplifiers that cost way more and perform way less. It's been proven that people enjoy things a lot more when they pay a lot more.

[topspeed]

Great suggestion!

The 3808 is one of the better AVR's on the market as far as sound quality goes. Denon's voicing has always been a bit warmer than other Japanese manufacturers (save Onkyo) and they never skimp on the processors. Indeed, the Burr Brown DAC's feature direct DSD processing for SACD as opposed to most others DAC's that convert the stream and then recombine it. In other words, it's less fussed with, which is always better.

Before you start buying additional gear, consider this:
1) Have you tried the Pure Direct mode yet? This shuts down everything except the preamp and amp sections. This removes the possibility of any crosstalk or contamination from any of the other processors or geegaws. If you use the 3808 to process your source, it also doubles the amount of DAC's used to sample the signal. The difference in sound in two channel is night and day. Seriously.

2) Have you addressed your room? After the speakers, the next biggest component that will affect the perceived quality of sound is room acoustics. Barring WAF concerns, have you addressed first order reflections, room nodes/modes, etc.? Are your speakers equidistant from the back and side walls (they shouldn't be)? Have you tweaked toe-in? What about back wall resonance? If you haven't considered the affect your room is having, either google room acoustics or do a search here at AR for threads by RichardGreene. Doc was a member here years ago and he's forgotten more about room interaction than you and I will ever know. You can also PM SirTerranceTheTerrible or Estat, mods here at AR that are very knowlegeable on the subject.

3) If you've done 1 & 2, the next least expensive route is to add an amp and use the Denon as a pre. With an amp connected to the pre-outs and PureDirect on, your 3808 will effectively become a passive preamp, which is the cleanest way to direct a signal short of directly increasing gain. Check audiogon.com as amps are great buys on the used market, particularly solid state or switching amps. Tube amps are considerably more fussy and part of the bottlehead culture is to switch tubes all the time until they find the sound they are looking for; great for them, not so much for you if your tastes differ. Consider that SS and switching amps have no moving parts to jostle and break and many manufacturers include transferable warranties. With the way the economy is now, you'll find more a more people dumping equipment to raise cash, so there should be some unbelievable buys.

4) Finally, you can go to separates (i.e. preamp, amp). Do separates sound better? Without question. Do you pay for it? Oh, you know this. If you want to incorporate a two channel rig into your current HT, you'll need a preamp with either a HT bypass or, at the very least, tape in/out and you can route it through there. Connect the the amp to the pre, the speakers to the amp, and viola! The challenge, or fun depending on your point of view, is matching the source - amp - pre - speakers. It's called synergy, and it's more art than science. Like children, some gear simply doesn't play well with others. The good news is you can use this reality to your advantage: Now you can "tune" the sound to just the way you like it, which is the whole point of this hobby, isn't it?

Good luck with whatever you choose, take your time, and enjoy the ride.

[topspeed]

Just using the pre-outs will definitely be more cost effective. Get a nice power amplifier with plenty of power and that would probably be what you're looking for. Something like this...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=248-747

would make you pretty happy. It's got great reviews and tons of people use them in their home systems. It's got enough power that you wouldn't need to buy another amp again, and it's pretty cheap. But of course you could spend more money on other "boutique" amplifiers that cost way more and perform way less. It's been proven that people enjoy things a lot more when they pay a lot more.

Is that you, Joey? Man, it's been awhile!

[This Guy]

yeah what's up man? I just started posting again after like five years. Surprised you remember me

[Rich-n-Texas]

Is that you, Joey? Man, it's been awhile!

Relax turboprop. Don't get your bowels in an uproar.

[emesbee]

The guy is probably right, but it depends on the equipment. I'm doing the same kind of thing with a Marantz home theatre amplifier and a Musical Fidelity E11 stereo amplifier. The E11 powers my front speakers, and is connected to the front L/R pre-outs on the Marantz. Music through the E11 sounds better than it did through the Marantz, and home theatre sounds more dynamic than with the Marantz alone.

The E11 is an integrated amp rather than a power amp, but it still sounds better this way. When running home theatre I just set the volume on the E11 to the halfway mark and control everything from the Marantz.

I did things the other way round. I already had the E11 running a stereo system before I bought the Marantz and the extra speakers. Initially thought I'd probably have to sell the E11, until I tried this setup.

[romavictor]

You should see if your Rotel dealer would let you take the receiver home for an audition to be sure it will meet your expectations. Or, they should at least allow for a return if not happy.

To answer your question, I feel adding an amp will have minimal effect on your sound quality. This is a popular configuration but many fail to realize you are STILL using the receiver's preamp section. A receiver has to compromise on the preamp to meet it's price point as well as any where else inside. It's not like they say let's use a top notch preamp and insert a cheezy amp. You have to ask will the Rotel have a better preamp than the Denon? I would actually suggest taking a look at the Rotel 15nn, I can't remember the number, preamp processor and their digital multichannel power amp. I haven't heard the 1500 stuff yet but I'd have to believe that Rotel's separate preamp would sound better than the one in their receiver. But your ears can evaluate that. You might also take a look at other brands like the Marantz AV8003/MM8003 combo or separates by NAD. Preamps go up pretty good in price beyond some of the brands mentioned.

Another thing to look at that may or may not be as expensive, what are you using for playback? If you are just using the DVD player into your receiver you might try auditioning a good dedicated CD player and connect it via the analog inputs, red/white RCA, and bypass the decoding section which most receiver's offer that feature. You might be surprised at the improvement in sound stage and overall quality with a better source.

I use my ipod classic that's loaded with full resolution WAV files and dock it to a wadia 170 ipod dock that is connected to my denon via digital coax. so basically the wadia extracts the pure bit perfect high resolution digital information from the ipod and sends it to the denon for processing and amplification. it works very well and am happy with the sound. just trying to multiply the quality of that sound for even better fidelity either through processing and/or amplification. that's what i'm trying to do here. thanks.

[markw]

I take it that you've ruled out speakers as a posibility for your situation?

I know that adding a power amp may seem like a simple, convenient fix, but it may not be a fix for this problem.

When shopping for speakers, I've always gone with music CDs for test purposes since virtually every speaker setup that sounds good on music will sound at least as satisfying when pressed into HT service.

[Mr Peabody]

Does the Wadia have it's own DAC? If so, you might try the Wadia analog outs. If no DAC in the Wadia, you could try experimenting with other DAC's to see if they improve on the Denon's internal DAC.

As you see from the responses there are several areas you can approach what you are trying to do. Only some experimenting will tell you if a certain area does what you are looking for. Hopefully you have a dealer that don't mind home auditions or some friends you can borrow from.

[winston]

Hey guys,

I have a dilemma here, got a denon 3808 and I'm quite happy with it for watching movies but I'm simply itching to improve on the stereo sound quality for music listening pleasure though. I was thinking of selling the denon and purchasing the Rotel rsx 1550. That way both my movies and music fidelity will increase or at least i hope so. But some guy at magnolia was telling me that all I need is a good stereo amp and to just use the denon as a pre out for the 2 main speakers.

does anyone have any ideas? I'm trying to keep things cost effective. Thanks.

what is your source for STEREO MUSIC you did not say. the reason i asked some DVD players let that happen as opposed to using a CDP. subsequently i had same problem for a long time..using my DVD/CDP,to play my Cd's, and i use ACURUS A 200 to drive my fronts. as soon i hooked up my CD player the difference was night & day. (IF you use CDP then rule that out...) but try to bypass your AV processor use only your tone control...hope that and the poster's in this threads helps

[hifitommy]

and maybe some amps like adcom stereo (5400, 5500) or a mc amp (7605 or 7705). altenatively, CIA class d monoblocks in 100 or 200 wpc configs. your speakers are good enough to expose the diffs in the electronics.

third alternative is the rotel reciever. the amps are likely better than the denon's.

[hydroman]

You didn't say exactly 'what was lacking' (didn't keep us from offering solutions, eh? )

I had very good success using the old Denon (R.I.P.) reciever. Underpowered for the mains - but paired with an NAD amp gave me the sound i was looking for...

And/or consider the powered subwoofer to fill things in.