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  1. #1
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    I'll never be an audiophile :(

    Well, I've done a lot of comparisons between speakers and some components and in the end I think I just don't have the ears for this passion. I really wish I did.

    I can hear the difference between different speakers. I've tried a number of sets now: Bose 201, Infinity Primus 150s, Klipsch Synergy B2s, Klipsch Reference RB15, and the Warfedale Diamond 9.1s. They do all sound different and the last two are the best. I have not decided between the last 2 yet; the Warfedales are warmer while the RB15s seem a little clearer on the vocals (less veiled). Any thoughts on these two?

    Okay, that choice almost done I decided to replace my very old CDP (~14 years) as was discussed in another thread. And, I greatly appreciated all the info. Well, in the end I replaced it with a Squeexebox and it sounded much better then my CDP when I first got it.

    Unfortunately, I rigged up a switch for an A-B comparison with my old CDP. Well, I can not hear any difference. I mean really nothing but a slight skip if they aren't perfectly in sync. When I didn't have the A-B I had thought the Squeezebox was much better, but now I realize I was fooling myself.

    Well, the Squeezebox is pretty cool and convienient, but my advice to anyone entering this hobby is to choose electronics based on the features not the music quality, and blow the wad on the speakers.

    cheers,
    Mark
    Last edited by curiousburke; 08-19-2006 at 02:10 PM.

  2. #2
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    You've transcended past the Audiophile onto the next level: Realist.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    I think you're learning that the value of upgrades will vary considerably by component. The speakers will give you the biggest range of tonal characteristics because all of them make compromises of some kind. No speaker out there is perfect, so all speakers will have clearly audible and measurable differences. The decision on which speaker to go with is determined with which compromises and tonal characteristics are acceptable for the type of listening that you do.

    Digital source components on the other hand have a much narrower range of differences. The proof is in both the measurements and in the listening, but that doesn't stop some pretty wild claims from being made about "night and day" improvements that result from digital source component upgrades. Differences might exist if you listen carefully enough, but they pale in significance compared to deviations that exist with speakers, room acoustics, and analog source components such as tape players and the vinyl playback chain.

    With the Squeezebox vs. your old CD player, I have to ask if you have these connected to your receiver/amp using a digital connection or an analog connection. The purported advantage of the Squeezebox is in the digital-to-analog converter and the analog signal path. If you digitally connect both devices to your receiver, then it the two sources should sound practically identical they would both use the same decoder and bypass the analog outputs on each device.

    Overall though, I would focus on the areas where you can hear the clear-cut differences first, and prioritize your budget accordingly.

    I wouldn't sweat it if you can't join the so-called audiophile ranks. What the hell defines an audiophile anyway? And a lot of the excessive claims that have been made by self-proclaimed audiophiles over the years have given the label a bad name in a lot of circles. Just watch the defensiveness that pops up when someone asks whether these observations occurred under sighted or blind conditions. From having participated in blind listenings, I can verify how much the magnitude of difference narrows when I did not know what changes are made. Dunlavy and McIntosh used to pretend to switch out speaker cables at high end audio shows, and let the participants drone on and on about how HUGE a difference they could hear, when in fact NOTHING had actually changed between listenings. If anything, that demonstrates how much perception is shaped by bias.
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for the comments.
    I used the analog signal from both the CDP and the Squeezebox. I don't know if they had CDPs with digital out back then; I guess probably, but this is low end Kenwood player.

    As for the comparisions, I only do blind comparisons when I think I can hear a difference. I didn't do that here since they sounded the same to me. Another test I did was to compare monster wire to some thinner stuff. Again, I couldn't tell the difference. I think part of the problem is I'm not in an ideal listening environment and part is I don't have the ears for it.

    I am agonizing between the RB15s and the Diamond 9.1s.

    -mark

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Most people wouldn't identify the Squeezebox (using the analog outs) as an audiophile product. If you want audiophile quality sound out of the SB, you can take the digital out and hook it up to a high-quality DAC.

    Be sure to check out the Internet radio on your SB.
    There's an audiophile born every minute. Congratulations; you're right on time.

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  6. #6
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    One other thing -- you haven't said what kind of amp and speakers you're using.

    If you're not putting your source into a decent quality rig, you're not going to hear subtle differences.
    There's an audiophile born every minute. Congratulations; you're right on time.

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  7. #7
    RGA
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    Not all cds players sound different -- just because it is expensive means very little. At the same time do not expect to hear differences in high resolution sources when you run them through receivers analog or digital -- I have a Marantz 4300 which is newish and it could not distinguish crap from a filet mignon because it basically presents a sludge result. I also tested the absolute top of the line Yamaha receiver before I left and it soundedpretty much the same as the Marantz -- caca.

    This is not to defend pricey cd players or pricey amps. I have heard the $30.00 Class T Sonic Impact sound considerably more musically satisfying than an over $1K Highly raved about Musical Fidelity. I have also heard 5 disc Sony players at $199.00 that were just as good and in one case better than highly raved about $1k+ cd players (I listened in a line level matched blind test and successfully determined the difference). Differences are less important - better is important.

    Speakers make the largest difference along with the room positioning of speakers and your listening position. Biggest difference and most important differences however are not necessarily the same thing. I may like wildly different loudspeakers each has a voice which I may like -- but the rest of the gear may make a system produce magic or produce annoying dreck. Which it is will be different for each user.

  8. #8
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    Yeah, I have been using the internet radio features of the Squeezebox. Like I said, I really like the Squeezebox for its features, so I'll likely keep it, but I can't hear the difference. Maybe this is the rig, but more likely it's my inability to distinguish slight differences, especially in my fairly poor living room configuration. Also, I think think the setup sounds good, but I don't really know what great sound should sound like in my living room.

    Rig:

    Squeezebox or Kenwood 1-bit dual DAC (I found the manufacture date = 1992)
    Sonic Impact T-amp with a 12V/3Amp power supply
    Klipsch RB-15 or Warfedale Diamond 9.1s


    I find the difficulty with the speakers is that I like them both in their own way.
    -m
    Last edited by curiousburke; 08-20-2006 at 05:37 AM.

  9. #9
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    Oh, I just had a breakthrough! I was A-B'ing again listening to Brandenburg Concerto No. 5. in D major. At the end of the first Allegro between about minute 7 and 10 there is a really soft section. Well, I cranked it way up, which I can't usually do because I'm in a condo, and there was a very clear difference between the Squeezebox and the Kenwood. The SB was much crisper adn detailed making the CDP sound muddy.

    So, maybe my problem/condition is that I listen to music at too low a volume to really distinguish music quality, unless it is really crappy. This is probably a good thing because I'll be happy with most of the electronic components out there.

    I'm going to go listen to that again.

    cheers,
    mark
    Last edited by curiousburke; 08-20-2006 at 06:15 AM.

  10. #10
    Audiophile Wireworm5's Avatar
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    What is an audiophile? A question I've been asking lately.
    Most people claim to like music even though are tastes vary from person to person, so that can't be the answer. I think the answer is more like someone like me who spends a lot of time consciously listening to music. Where other people will spend their time gaming, fixing cars, watching soaps, etc..
    I don't think my hearing is better than anyone else's. But I think that from many hours of listening that I can process sounds in my brain that others miss. I know this cause when I A/B an sacd and a cd for a friend , he could not tell a differece but there definately was a difference in that the cd sounded thin in comparison.
    Since I got into home audio some 6 years ago. I have noticed a definite improvement in sound quality with each upgrade I've made. There were times where I thought that it can't get any better, but I was proven wrong each time. But I didn't make hasty decisions, I would listen an analyze the sound for months at a time till I was certain what needed improvement. I made some risky decisions not knowing if the upgrade would make a difference, but each time it did.
    In my case, my first multi-disc cd player was crap. I suspect that the laser pickup wasn't very good. When I discovered how bad the resolution was playing cds ,I quickly replaced it.
    Now as for your system. Play a 320 mp3 song for a week or two. Then play a cd of the same song. If you can't hear the difference even though it is marginal then your system resolution isn't good enough. And that maybe why you can't disguise a difference in your sources.But it could also be as you say, there is no difference.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    music lover

    thats what its all about. i began noticing music as a child in the late '1940s (bing crosby, benny goodman, and later les paul & mary ford). radio, victrolas, and live music was there for me.

    not until the late 60s/early 70s was i attuned to equipment improvements. i could HEAR the diffs between speakers but didnt know what to make of it. then a knowledgeable friend helped me to recognize what sounded more like the real thing, real instruments.

    with some time and changes, i made decisions on my own and also with guidance from him and listening sessions at hifi stores when i wasnt really buying at the time. eventually i made some very good choices and advances.

    so compare the sound of the bass, clarity, cymbals, voice, piano, and the like and do this in long term listening sessions. quick A?B test can be revealing but long term is at least equal or better at making judgements with.

    receivers and amps will sooner or later reveal themselves and you will have a good idea when to make the next step up. the better the equipment gets, the more you will be able to hear differences. thats when diffs in CDPs can become apparent.

    separate components will allow incremental improvements and are usually built better than integrated pieces like receivers.

    being an audiophile for the better sound of the music will serve you better than being one for having the latest and greatest equipment.

    evolution: http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/588.html
    ...regards...tr

  12. #12
    RGA
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    Try and listen to your two cd players through a line level headphone amplifier (they;re not the greatest of quality mind you but most higher end dealers who are BIG and sell a lot of headphones probably have one. Commercial Electronics in Vancouver does because they also sell to professional recording studios. SO you can hook up a very good headphone from say Sennheiser, Beyer, Grado, Stax electrostats etc and then run 1 -8 cd players each with their own volume control all feeding the headphone -- thsi way you can adjust the volume level of each cd player so they are matched.

    Place the same cd in each cd player and go to it. If you can't hear a difference with really good headphones then chances are you won't every hear them with loudspeakers and don;t waste the money. Therein also lies a problem -- even if you hear a difference with the headphones it still does not mean you will with a regular stereo amplifier and speakers. Some pricey cd players are deliberately made to sound different -- this is easy to do and if a DBT does not ever pick up cd player differences then you have to wonder about the test itself. CD player makers WANT to make their cd players sound different or better and that is the crux. Being different and being better are not the same thing. The mistake is to hear the $30.00 SOnic Impact and assume that the $1k MF is better because it is expensive -- and yes there is a huge "difference" in sound but I walked away thinking -- well the SI actually sounded good the MF sounded like a stereile boring lifeless mess.

    On the other hand you may listen to a Rotel and much prefer it to the SI. You can;t base everything on a few experiments with a few pieces of gear.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    ^^^ The Squeezebox ain't a CD player. It's the audio version of a friggin' Swiss Army knife for $300!

    There's an audiophile born every minute. Congratulations; you're right on time.

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    Mike, I agree, the SB does a tonne of things that a CDP will never do, and in my case it is always as good and sometimes slightly better then my CDP. For these reasons I think I will keep it. The internet radio alone has my wife hooked.

    Thanks for all the suggestions for testing, I'll continue doing so, but I probably won't go to headphones. This is only because I almost never listen to headphones, so unless I can hear a difference on my loundspeakers I'm not concerned if there is one. I was quite happy that I could hear the difference with that section of Brandenburg Concertos and I think picking that out is helping me to detect some differences in other pieces of music. The difference doesn't sway my wife, but like I said she likes the internet radio either way.

    cheers,
    mark
    Last edited by curiousburke; 08-21-2006 at 05:45 AM.

  15. #15
    First Listen, Then Learn misterq4u's Avatar
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    I am a mix of Wireworm and Hifitom experience.

    This sums it all up
    "being an audiophile for the better sound of the music will serve you better than being one for having the latest and greatest equipment"
    Our ears speak to our brain...

    ...Me

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area then anywhere else in this hobby. The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area then anywhere else in this hobby. The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.

    -Flo
    Florian, this sounds a bit snobby. I don't mean any offense by this, but it strikes me as "if you're not dropping at least 2K into this hobby, then you're not really in it for the music, but you just like electronics." Personally, I would say just the opposite. The electronics geak in me would love to play with some high end gear, but the piece of me that is just looking for listening pleasure is happy with the $30 t-amp.

    -m
    Last edited by curiousburke; 08-22-2006 at 01:36 PM.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    It's kind of hard not to be at least a little bit of a snob, not when I and most audiophiles I know got to the equipment we own today the hard way. I mean we too bought incremental stuff and things slowly improved and improved some more and the next thing you know I/we have got a damn fortune tied up in the hobby.

    So what's my point? I had a nice stereo, I decided I NEEDED a big screen HDTV and a surround system home theater, so I spent a lot of time trying to find a cost effective way to use my nice stuff as the two front channels. I couldn't find a way I could afford that didn't spoil what I already had.

    So I bought a good receiver a NAD T770 (or maybe it was a T772) at about $1,500 a Toshiba progressive scan DVD with 24/96 converters, Dalhquist 3 way speakers (a left over from another upgrade) on the front, Legacy Monitors in the rears and a home brew center channel (Dual 4" Etons and a scan speak tweet). Real money, good stuff. Great TV.

    Anxious to compare, I played a CD on my new home theater set-up. It wasn't awful but couldn't begin to compare to the main system. I know, I said to myself, turn off all that processing, go to straight stereo 2 channel only, those Dahlquists are good speakers, that'll work. Nope just not there. I have never heard a reciever that could hold up to seperates. Of course the prices are not an apples to apples comparison either.

    In my opinion, you might hear a difference between zip cord and a decent speaker cable with a receiever but you wont hear any difference between a $250 interconnect and a $1,000 interconnect. On my good system unfortunately I can hear a difference and it doesn't favor the cheaper cable.

    Do I have special hearing, of course not, but hearing gets better as you listen better and the equipment improves. It's just a learned thing, as far as I know anyone can learn, but the end result on your wallet is your problem not mine
    .

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousburke
    Florian, this sounds a bit snobby. I don't mean any offense by this, but it strikes me as "if you're not dropping at least 2K into this hobby, then you're not really in it for the music, but you just like electronics."
    Don't worry, you're not reading it incorrectly!

    Quote Originally Posted by curiousburke
    Personally, I would say just the opposite. The electronics geak in me would love to play with some high end gear, but the piece of me that is just looking for listening pleasure is happy with the $30 t-amp.
    Agreed. Some of the most dedicated music lovers I know are far more into the music itself than the equipment that they play it on. They prove their dedication not by investing every last cent into a constant cycle of equipment upgrades, but by attending live events, constantly trying to discover new music, and supporting the musicians themselves. Just last year, I attended four concerts with the SF Symphony and one with the LA Philharmonic (not to mention countless other club gigs and live shows). Between my wife and I, the tickets to those events cost around $800. Does that make me less of a music fan because I chose to attend live events rather than spend that amount of money on some fancy interconnect? IMO, great music is great music, no matter what kind of system you're playing it through. Personally, I feel sorry for those "audiophiles" who won't listen to something just because the recording quality isn't up to par.
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  20. #20
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    It's kind of hard not to be at least a little bit of a snob, not when I and most audiophiles I know got to the equipment we own today the hard way. I mean we too bought incremental stuff and things slowly improved and improved some more and the next thing you know I/we have got a damn fortune tied up in the hobby.
    Nothing wrong with that process of discovery, but I think that a lot of the more dismissive attitudes and general lack of perspective that I see in the audio hobby are doing a lot of damage. Over the years, I've met numerous people who spent a fortune on their audio systems, and listened to plenty of high end systems. But, I got other priorities in life outside of my audio system (i.e, attending live music events regularly, dance, travel, buying CDs and DVDs, etc.), so I've always gone with a midlevel setup. That doesn't stop me from listening, and trying things out; and knowing that there are better systems out there does not stop me from enjoying mine. Yet, there's often a presumption among audiophiles that people who don't constantly pump money into their system are somehow less dedicated to the music itself. Personally, I think the dismissive attitude that accompanies that belief has increasingly spread throughout the audio hobby, and it has driven plenty of otherwise interested people away.

    I know a lot of it also well intentioned advice bourne of learning things the hard way. But, often the advice that comes out of this is to skip the starting and intermediate price points, and go straight to the higher price points. And if a newbie is convinced that the only choices are to go high end or don't go, they might choose the latter option.

    The hard truth is that the audio component industry is in a long-term decline. Last year's total sales of $1.1 billion were less than half of what Apple alone generated in iPod sales, and is way off the 1990 peak of $1.9 billion ($3 billion in today's dollars). For all the vitriol that I read on this and other boards about how lousy receivers and entry level components sound and how stupid consumers buying those products are, the fact is that budding audiophiles need to start somewhere. But, the tenor of the conversation often is to basically tell people that they are not worthy until they spend more on their systems, that having a system of a particular budget reflects everything from their general knowledge to what the music itself means to them. The destroyer of the audio hobby will not be cheap systems or home theater, but people deciding not to bother with component systems in the first place.

    At a time when I think the audio hobby needs to reach out and be as inclusive as possible, the trend seems more and more geared towards exclusivity. Reaching out means focusing on rational priorities and educating people on what's possible within their budget points, rather than trying to convince entry level consumers that they need to invest in megabuck cabling that might cost more than their speakers, or that it's impossible to enjoy music without investing an exhorbitant amount on their system. Even a newbie can see through the folly that these attitudes represent, and it just might be enough to sour them on the whole experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    In my opinion, you might hear a difference between zip cord and a decent speaker cable with a receiever but you wont hear any difference between a $250 interconnect and a $1,000 interconnect. On my good system unfortunately I can hear a difference and it doesn't favor the cheaper cable.

    Do I have special hearing, of course not, but hearing gets better as you listen better and the equipment improves. It's just a learned thing, as far as I know anyone can learn, but the end result on your wallet is your problem not mine
    .
    And I think here is where the perspective comes in. Even if someone can hear a difference between those interconnects, the question then becomes whether that $750 budget difference is worth whatever perceived sound quality improvements exist, and if that cost can be better applied in other areas.

    You're right that "it's a learned thing". But, I think the bigger challenge is with encouraging the learning without being judgmental or dogmatic. And that's a fine line to tread, because not much separates pride from snobbishness and arrogance.
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
    Panasonic VIERA TH-C50FD18 50" 1080p
    Paradigm Reference Studio 40, CC, and 20 v.2
    Adire Audio Rava (EQ: Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124)
    Yamaha RX-A1030
    Dual CS5000 (Ortofon OM30 Super)
    Sony UBP-X800
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR44 and WVB
    Logitech Harmony 700
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  21. #21
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Before I could be considered an audiophile, I could hear problems wih my equipment, I didn't know what they were or how to describe them. Makes it very hard to fix. I floundered about until I listened to a friends high end system, oh, probably 25 years ago.

    I still didn't know the lingo, but my suspicions that all was not well with my equipment were confirmed. I did what I always do, I set out to learn more. I subscribed to magazines, I talked to others, I went to high end stores. Soon I knew more and could even elucidate some of the issues I heard with my equipment. I also learned I couldn't possibly afford the stuff that sounded truly great.

    I decided to attempt to identify the weakest link in my system and see if I could fix that. My system didn't have a seperate pre-amp it was an integrated , but there were bypass jacks to the power stage which was a reasonable 110W/channel.

    So I bought a used Conrad Johnson PV12, $900 I think. A lot compared to most of my stuff, but within reach of almost anyone who saves up a little money. It helped a lot, but did not fix my system. More reading listening and learning, finally I concluded that good CD players seemed well out of financial reach, but I learned that a reasonably priced D to A would help most CD players. Another $850 about 1 year later. Wow, that was a big step. Suddenly most of that transistor grunge was gone, replaced with smooth clean sounds. Not the last word in resolution, extension or dynamics, but I could listen happily for hours. Light some candles, sit back enjoy the show, not bad.

    That was the big change, the ability to listen for hours on end and really enjoy the music. This new decompression tool, this home entertainment, shared with my wife made it clear that this was a good way to invest some of my money. The returns were well worth it. I've never looked back.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Don't worry, you're not reading it incorrectly!
    Woochiefer has neither the knowledge nor experience to judge good equipment and doesnt own any either ,he is not in the class that he is able to comment with the likes of Joe, Bernd, Y_S and myself and this is why i and others completely disregard him.

    Below the 2K area, you have people going from Home Theaters in a box to bigger bookshelf speakers, to some subwoofers. Then a new HT Receiver, new cables. Then they want a different DVD Player etc..

    In the true realm of High End Audio, you have people changing equipment with much more thought and system and its a slow process.

    Also i get offended by the comment of "snobs" same as others like Bernd, Joe, Y_S etc.. and get trashed by Wooch and the likes because they simply cannot afford it and dont respect our hard and long work that it took to get this far.

    Joe and Bernd are easily in the tens of thousands of dollars into their Systems. Y_S is also in with at least 30K. My speakers alone are 85K and the whole system is over a 100K. Is this snobby ? No, some people buy a fancy car or go on many trips. I honor the music and try to reproduce it close to real and make all the efforts in the world to get it. The "snobby" accusing corner is generally by the population with mainstream equipment who cant afford it.

    Thats my point, and i stand by it.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  23. #23
    Suspended superpanavision70mm's Avatar
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    Florian...

    In the past we have had disagreements and such, but for once I couldn't agree with you anymore with your comments about Wooch!

  24. #24
    Forum Regular likeitloud's Avatar
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    Post Why The Attack???

    Quote Originally Posted by superpanavision70mm
    Florian...

    In the past we have had disagreements and such, but for once I couldn't agree with you anymore with your comments about Wooch!
    Without going into a big back in forth thing about this, your maybe going into attack
    mode alittle unfairly, this forum is used buy people who for the most part, are in the
    mid to upper mid budget area for their system. With that said, there are only about
    8-12 guys willing to help with the same mundane, over and over questions almost
    daily. Wooch, is one of them, among others bobsticks/jse/gmike/even RL, stone/swish
    over in R/R, even john/eric kick in once in awhile. With new guys/gals checking in
    alot lately, there input keeps the forum running. Flo/Bernd/Joe, have super high end
    systems, great, the others mentioned just seem to be willing to break things down
    into terms new guys/gals can relate to. Look at wooch's threads, the guy is spending
    alot of time getting his info out there for everyone. Highend gear is cool, most of us
    just don't relate to it, we have budgets, family, commitments. For me, audio is not
    my top priority, but I want it to sound the best it can, within my limits. Guys like
    wooch, have made that happen. For the record, I'm not lobbying anyone for president,
    it's just the way it is. Later
    Sunfire TGP-5 Pre/Pro
    Carver A760-x
    Carver TFM25
    Carver TFM15 x 2
    Sunfire Signature "True Sub"
    JBL Studio L890(Front)
    JBL Studio L830(Rear)
    Infinity PC350(Center)
    Oppo Digital 983H
    Panasonic Viera TH-46PZ85U
    Panasonic DMP-BD50 Blu-ray Player
    Power Protection/Filters-Monster HTS 5100 MKII
    Canare Interconnects

  25. #25
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    I believe that you will find more equipmentphiles in the sub 2K$ area then anywhere else in this hobby. The newest and best gear is mostly in the HT area and SB area and is not found in the serious playing area.

    -Flo
    Once again you take the opportunity to stroke your own ego with that holier-than-thou attitude of yours.
    Not sure what the "SB" area is, but for home theater and stereo sub $2K, it only makes sense that there's more equipment turnover - which is much different from being an equipmentphile - When you start with a $400 system, the next upgrade might only cost $200...When you get to $2000, you start holding onto your gear a bit longer...it takes more and more savings to reach that next step. So early on there's more purchases, it slows down later on for most people.

    Oddly enough, I can not think of anyone who spends more time masturbating to their audio gear and posting about how terrific and superior their equipment is than yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by likeitloud
    Without going into a big back in forth thing about this, your maybe going into attack
    mode alittle unfairly, this forum is used buy people who for the most part, are in the
    mid to upper mid budget area for their system.
    Bang on! And condescending snobby remarks intended only to establish a lower separate class from the wannabe elitists are neither productive nor sought after by members here.

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