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  1. #76
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    What good is more watts if your speakers are rated at, lets say 125max? Is there a reason to spend your money on a 250watt per amp/receiver? If you upgrading to better speakers latter sure but not if your staying with the speakers ya got right?
    Look & Listen

  2. #77
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    A bathtub curve? OK, now you've peaked my interest. What's a bathtub curve? Does the tub have water in it?

    I do see what you mean that more watts don't equal better sound. Too many other factors to factor in as they say. But if you stay within one class or manufacturer the other numbers tend to improve as the power goes up. Not that they have to. Just in a lot of cases they do.

    I still think set-up, placement and speakers make the biggest difference.

    Just as described, distortion goes up and really low power levels, is low in the middle, and goes up as it approaches clipping. Resembles a bathtub....

    -Bruce

  3. #78
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Just as described, distortion goes up and really low power levels, is low in the middle, and goes up as it approaches clipping. Resembles a bathtub....

    -Bruce
    Oh, very simple. I'm supprised that someone as simple as me didn't get that.

    Thanks, but you still didn't say if the tub needs water.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  4. #79
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    It's like this...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    A bathtub curve? OK, now you've peaked my interest. What's a bathtub curve?
    ...If you plotted the numbers on a graph the end result would look like the profile of a bathtub...starting out as a high number(relatively speaking), dropping precipitously to a much lower level, staying there as a straight horizontal line for a bit and finally, rising in a similar fashion to the way it fell...sorta' like this:

    ---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---
    ---I---\---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I/--I---I---
    ---I---I\--I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---/---I---I---
    ---I---I-\-I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I--/I---I---I---
    ---I---I--\I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I-/-I---I---I---
    ---I---I---\---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I/--I---I---I---
    ---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---


    jimHJJ(...please pardon the extemporaneous "artwork"...)

    Finally figured out how to do it, this might be mo' betta'...

    P.S. to quote a certain Mr. Bond "...shocking..."

    ...Go figure, it took me an hour to dash-dash-dash an example, then to find graph paper I could copy, then figure how to connect the jpgs...talk about a day late and a dollar short...gotta' get a hobby...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails I Want Better Sound...-bathtub.jpg  
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  5. #80
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...If you plotted the numbers on a graph the end result would look like the profile of a bathtub...starting out as a high number(relatively speaking), dropping precipitously to a much lower level, staying there as a straight horizontal line for a bit and finally, rising in a similar fashion to the way it fell...sorta' like this:

    ---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---
    ---I---\---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I/--I---I---
    ---I---I\--I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---/---I---I---
    ---I---I-\-I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I--/I---I---I---
    ---I---I--\I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I-/-I---I---I---
    ---I---I---\---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I/--I---I---I---
    ---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---I---


    jimHJJ(...please pardon the extemporaneous "artwork"...)

    Finally figured out how to do it, this might be mo' betta'...

    P.S. to quote a certain Mr. Bond "...shocking...")
    But where's the water?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  6. #81
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I wish i could own a B&W Nautilus 801
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  7. #82
    music fanatic
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    Yeah, so I guess consider this thread TROLL territory...

    abandon ship!

  8. #83
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Well GM...

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchanal
    Yeah, so I guess consider this thread TROLL territory...
    ...I'd guess that's where the water is...under the bridge...with the trolls...

    jimHJJ(...I'll wash my hands of the whole affair...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  9. #84
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    OK, I'll be good.
    Pass me a towel.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  10. #85
    golden ear
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Easy guys. Let's just try to help the original poster.

    More power (or current) is great, if your speakers can take it. If not, you may be better off looking and listening to as many speakers as you can. Once you find the ones you like then you can look into what amps are good for those speakers.
    so if my existing receiver is 90W/ch, do i have to get a more powerful stereo amp (greater wattage) to beef up my main speakers for it to sound better?

  11. #86
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding like...

    ...a broken record, define "better"...better yet, what do you find lacking in what you have that prompts the search for that arbitrary level of quality.

    Depending on the loudspeaker's efficiency, 90Wpc should be more than sufficient. I have a 100Wpc amp and relatively inefficient speakers and at normal listening levels the amp's metering indicates cruising at around 2-3 Watts, definitely <5...It also depends on what you listen to...music with a wide dynamic range will require more headroom than pop(generally speaking)...

    The ability to produce volume isn't necessarily indicative of the quality of the sound produced, so that may not be what you require to get "better"...Perhaps you do need a more powerful amp because your playback levels are creating audible distortion due to the amp being overdriven...we can only guess...rather than play twenty questions, you tell us, otherwise the generic answers you can expect are: get speakers you think are superior, try some room-tuning, that sort of thing.

    jimHJJ(...we really can't answer non-questions...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  12. #87
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    accastil-
    You said your speakers sounded fantastic. It is really hard to give advice on how to improve fantastic sound. You won't get any useful advice unless you tell us what you find lacking. If what you find is lacking agrees with the many things the reviewer in the link below found lacking, then the answer to getting better sound is not going to be a better amp, it will be obtaining different speakers. Your profile says you have these...yes?

    http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=992

    Some of the reviewers negative comments...

    "the front-mounted main drivers also go deep into the bass, and this threw up phase cancellation problems. With the subs nominally in phase, there was considerable cancellation below 100Hz; setting them nominally out of phase moved the cancellation up to the mid/upper-bass (70-150Hz). Neither situation was satisfactory. Mordaunt-Short designer Graham Foy suggested I should use the line-level subwoofer feed from the AV processor, and this wrought a substantial improvement, though there was still a bit of a 'hole' in the upper bass."
    -- they have complex bass issues and take much effort to set up properly.


    "it could have livelier dynamics, and voices do sound a bit 'shut in', with a touch of nasality"
    --they are built for HT dynamics, not musical subtlety.


    "The centre speaker is a little more 'forward' and explicit than the main stereo pair"
    --they are not well matched, and the mains are inferior to the center, most likely because most HT listening comes from the center, not the main. Sounds like they compromised on the mains.


    "the system is not without its idiosyncrasies. It's not the simplest to set up - that phase switch always adds an element of uncertainty, and the subs should only be used via line/.1 inputs.
    --it is difficult to get good sound out of this system.

    Now, what don't you like...

  13. #88
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accastil
    so if my existing receiver is 90W/ch, do i have to get a more powerful stereo amp (greater wattage) to beef up my main speakers for it to sound better?
    I think the power you have now in plenty to drive the speakers you have now. If you bought an amp with more power you may end up getting a little better sound but I don't think it would be worth the money unless,
    A - the amp is free or very cheap.
    B - you plan on upgrading your speakers as well in the future.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  14. #89
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Remember...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I think the power you have now in plenty to drive the speakers you have now. If you bought an amp with more power you may end up getting a little better sound but I don't think it would be worth the money unless,
    A - the amp is free or very cheap.
    B - you plan on upgrading your speakers as well in the future.
    Those speakers contain powered subwoofers. Virtually all the available amp power is going to driving the midrange/high drivers already.

    And, those speakers are 4 ohm units. As we all know, amps tend to produce more power at lower impedances. Do you really more power would be of any benefit? As I've hinted at before, I don't, but obviously that's the answer he wants to hear.

  15. #90
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw

    those speakers ar e 4 ohm units,
    Is his receiver 4 ohm stable?
    I wonder if anyone has the resistance curve for these speakers.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  16. #91
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Been there.. .done that...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Is his receiver 4 ohm stable?
    I wonder if anyone has the resistance curve for these speakers.
    Check page 1, post 14, dated 12/07. I noted there in item 5 that Marantz does not rate these for 4 ohm, only 8 and 6 ohms. FWIW, the 6 ohm rating is 110 watts and the speakers rated max is 150 watts.

    It looks like these speakers might not be a "fantastic" choice for this receiver or, conversely, this receiver might not be a "fantastic" choice for these speakers.

    In either case, considering the subwoofers handle the heavy duty work, I doubt the mids and highs suck up that much power.

    A quote from the review linked to in item 4 in my 12/07 post. "The powered bass sections of the main speakers allow ear-shattering volumes to be achieved even with a modestly powered amp."

    Both Noddingoff's and my links to reviews of these speakers, both reviewers indicate some reservations about using these speakers for music,

    IMNSHO, he can add all the power he wants and he may get a db or two more loudness but it's not going to change the overall sound of the system. Remember, a 3 db increase in volume requires double the power and, in the grand scheme of things, 3 db isn't squat.
    Last edited by markw; 12-15-2005 at 09:03 AM.

  17. #92
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    OK, so what would be best would be a speaker upgrade.

    Do you think a 4 ohm stable say 2 channel, 100 wpc would be of any help? These could be had for cheap from Ebay etc.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  18. #93
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Again and still,

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    OK, so what would be best would be a speaker upgrade.

    Do you think a 4 ohm stable say 2 channel, 100 wpc would be of any help? These could be had for cheap from Ebay etc.
    ...that depends on what the definiton of "better" is and he's not very forthcoming about that, now is he?

    But, personally I doubt it. People here are using receivers rated to 6 ohms for 4 ohm speakers and are having no problems.

    MNSHO, I don't think he likes the speakers for music but doesn't want to admit it or can't do anything about it. ...or both. He's hoping for a magic bullet and frankly, it ain't happenin'.

  19. #94
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    ...that depends on what the definiton of "better" is and he's not very forthcoming about that, now is he?

    But, personally I doubt it. People here are using receivers rated to 6 ohms for 4 ohm speakers and are having no problems.

    MNSHO, I don't think he likes the speakers for music but doesn't want to admit it or can't do anything about it. ...or both. He's hoping for a magic bullet and frankly, it ain't happenin'.
    Maybe pixie snot?

    I see your point. His receiver should have no trouble driving those speakers from 100htz or so up. Oh well, we tried.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  20. #95
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Maybe pixie snot?
    How about some of that fancy Golden Quicksilver Uranium stuff I've been reading about in another thread? That should work wonders.

  21. #96
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    How about some of that fancy Golden Quicksilver Uranium stuff I've been reading about in another thread? That should work wonders.
    It works well if you sniff it. But if you really want the most bang for your buck, you've got to melt it down and rub it in your eyes.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #97
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    It works well if you sniff it.
    Soooooo, you sniff this stuff, then about 15 min later your music/movies will sound alot better. i get it now.

  23. #98
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.J.
    Soooooo, you sniff this stuff, then about 15 min later your music/movies will sound alot better. i get it now.
    Well, I think the way it works is that you won't care how it sounds. Hard to worry about music when you're having a coughing fit, or your eyes are burning like h.ll.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  24. #99
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Well, I think the way it works is that you won't care how it sounds. Hard to worry about music when you're having a coughing fit, or your eyes are burning like h.ll.
    ......................hhmmmm, I think I'll just stick to repositioning my speakers. A glass of wine while listening to some good tunes perhaps. That always gives me better sound.

  25. #100
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Nah, that's snot the answer. for one thing, it's kinda messy.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Maybe pixie snot?

    I see your point. His receiver should have no trouble driving those speakers from 100htz or so up. Oh well, we tried.
    There's always these:

    http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

    If worse comes to worse, they could always be used in the fish tank...

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