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  1. #51
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    Line arrays? You mean a (vertical) stack of cone speakers? If so, this would be a line of point sources with multiple cancellations, etc. This is complicated. I do not understand such an array to act as a planar source but rather as a line source, i.e. SPL drops with distance. At some specific distance I believe it will transition into a point source.

    These things usually transition Planar >> Line >> Point.

    A planar source would be sound caused in an air duct wherein sound can travel significalt distances unabated. Another example is the shperical radiation of the sun which is a planar radiation at the Earth because the Earth is a very tiny segment of that huge shperical radiation pattern.

    Magneplanars are a stack of closely placed smaller panel transducers of varying heights (different resonance frequencies) so you have smaller panels stacked to act as one large panel. Jim Whiney was brilliant.

    ESL's come in different flavors so there is something for everyone.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    So you can see how ridiculous you sound no recording format has 137db of dynamic range. Even 24bit which has a theoretical dynamic range of 144db, even the best consumer playback system will only get about 120db performance from it.

    137db even in the bass frequencies is extremely loud. Unless you have subs like mine, and as many as I have, with the necessary power to push bass frequencies to very high levels, no speaker system will playback 137db(or even 120db), not even yours.

    It takes me 4 H-PAS subwoofers in a tight cubical cluster and 4,000 watts of power to get 131db at 20hz. The digital cannons in the Telarc version of the 1812 Overture did not even come close to that level when played back at an average listening level of 80db. Those cannons are recorded louder than any bass drum can play without destroying it.
    We are talking PEAK dBs, NOT AVERAGE! ALL the peak dBs I listed are correct. My system measured 106 dB on the "Firebird".
    That was with the Dunlavy ScIv speakers. With my Fulton Js, the dBs would have been higher. Then there is house, trance, and rock.

  3. #53
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    We are talking PEAK dBs, NOT AVERAGE! ALL the peak dBs I listed are correct. My system measured 106 dB on the "Firebird".
    That was with the Dunlavy ScIv speakers. With my Fulton Js, the dBs would have been higher. Then there is house, trance, and rock.
    What was the average or typical level for Firebird in the instance where you got 106 dB peak? If your typical level was, say, -15 dB off the peak, that would make it 90 dB.

    Personally I never listen at home at 90 dB typical on any kind of music, and I don't believe I've ever heard that in the concert hall either; (maybe I just haven't been in the right concert halls).

    All this does point to the fact that the power of you amp does depend on personal listening levels as much as anything else.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    ALL the peak dBs I listed are correct.
    Based on what? Where's the requested detail? The numbers are "correct" because you said so, or you read them somewhere?

    I gave a detailed illustration of how one can easily misrepresent what a concert listener hears at his eardrum. There has been no response at all from you - no explanation of what was missed or what error was made. No comment on the difference between filling a concert venue with sound versus a home listening room.

    As for rock, trance and other music, yes their live concerts are very loud thanks to massive amplification and vast speaker arrays. The only limit there is the volume knob and when the concert system runs out of steam. However, those concerts are also just loud - not much dynamic range is involved.

  5. #55
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl View Post
    Based on what? Where's the requested detail? The numbers are "correct" because you said so, or you read them somewhere?
    Because the widely referenced study by Marshall Chasin fails to provide any such information other than the 137 db figure was achieved during Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen.

    Since he is an audiologist with a concern for hearing loss, I suspect the measurements are from a player's perspective and not the audience.

    Hear Music

    I too, noted the the notion that when readings conflicted, they used the higher one. Like if you bumped the microphone.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Because the widely referenced study by Marshall Chasin fails to provide any such information other than the 137 db figure was achieved during Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen.

    Since he is an audiologist with a concern for hearing loss, I suspect the measurements are from a player's perspective and not the audience.
    That's in keeping with what I suspected.

    It still gets back to the issue that it is unnecessary for your system to reproduce a 137 dB sound in your living room. A symphonic concert-goer would never experience that in the audience.

    Hearing loss is a concern even for classical musicians, but except for the rarest of oddities, recordings are made from the listener's perspective. The thought that I should go deaf in my left ear in sympathy with the violinist because I like Kreisler's "Leibesleid" makes no sense. ;-)

    Context and details are important.
    Last edited by mlsstl; 05-12-2012 at 07:41 AM.

  7. #57
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    The average dB level in the "Firebird" is in the 70 dB range. HOWEVER, if your system cannot reproduce those peaks, you will miss much of the impact of the music. Of course, house, trance, and pop usually has very limited dynamic range (one of the reasons that makes those forms of music boring for me). The AVERAGE dB level at many clubs is WAY, WAY too loud. I used to hang out with many pop groups (sixties and seventies), and, fortunately, I used earplugs at live concerts.

  8. #58
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    The average dB level in the "Firebird" is in the 70 dB range. HOWEVER, if your system cannot reproduce those peaks, you will miss much of the impact of the music. Of course, house, trance, and pop usually has very limited dynamic range (one of the reasons that makes those forms of music boring for me). The AVERAGE dB level at many clubs is WAY, WAY too loud. I used to hang out with many pop groups (sixties and seventies), and, fortunately, I used earplugs at live concerts.
    I find it hard to believe that the peaks are 36 dB above the average level, even in The Firebird. And even if it were true in live performance, it wouldn't be the case on a recording.
    Last edited by Feanor; 05-13-2012 at 04:01 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    HOWEVER, if your system cannot reproduce those peaks, you will miss much of the impact of the music.
    I'll take one more pass at this before I give up.

    Just because an instrument creates a 137 dB peak in a concert hall with three-quarters a million cubic feet of space to fill and thousands of bodies absorbing sound, does not mean a home system needs to duplicate that exact volume level in order to recreate the volume heard by an audience listener at the concert.

    This is an issue you've continued to ignore. I think you just like the thought of the phrase "137 dB" - it sounds impressive! ;-)

    But that's like thinking if it takes a 500 horsepower engine to get a 70,000 pound truck to highway speeds, I also need 500 HP in my Toyota sedan to hit 70 mph. That's not true either.

  10. #60
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    Actually one can produce 137 dB in their home with a fraction of the total power that produced 137 dB in a concert hall.

    Why they would want to............. I have no idea.

    If you need to use high SPL's for good sound in your home, improve your sound system. Quality will always trump quantity.

  11. #61
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    I REPEAT: 70% of a symphony's power comes from the bass drum. If your system is unable to reproduce the bass drum on the "Firebird" accurately, then you will miss much of the emotional impact of the performance. OF COURSE, the peak loudness levels are more than 36 dBs above average levels! Science!!!

  12. #62
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    "Science" involves documenting the test protocol so others can repeat an experiment. That has not happened in this case. Apparently the spectacularly big number being tossed about is so important that it cannot be questioned.

    Or, it could be that Tubey's season ticket to the symphony is for a position prostrate on the floor with his head in front of the bass drum....

    ;-)

  13. #63
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    We are talking PEAK dBs, NOT AVERAGE! ALL the peak dBs I listed are correct. My system measured 106 dB on the "Firebird".
    That was with the Dunlavy ScIv speakers. With my Fulton Js, the dBs would have been higher. Then there is house, trance, and rock.
    I understand exactly where you are coming from, and 106db is a more reasonable peak. 120db or 137db as you originally quoted is not.
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  14. #64
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    I REPEAT: 70% of a symphony's power comes from the bass drum. If your system is unable to reproduce the bass drum on the "Firebird" accurately, then you will miss much of the emotional impact of the performance. OF COURSE, the peak loudness levels are more than 36 dBs above average levels! Science!!!
    In the concert hall up close to the bass drum what you are saying is probably true. However any engineer worth their salt would not record a bass drum at 120-137db because we know that recording will be played on a wide variety of speakers. I would not want to create a recording that caused a speaker to burp up its bass driver while trying to reproduce the recording.

    I think you are mixing up what happens live in front of the microphone with what happens front of the speaker during playback.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    In the concert hall up close to the bass drum what you are saying is probably true. However any engineer worth their salt would not record a bass drum at 120-137db because we know that recording will be played on a wide variety of speakers. I would not want to create a recording that caused a speaker to burp up its bass driver while trying to reproduce the recording.

    I think you are mixing up what happens live in front of the microphone with what happens front of the speaker during playback.
    Yes, and, AS I STATED, I measured the bass drum at 106 dB through my system (Dunlavy SCIV speakers, Audio Research SP 8 preamp, D70 amp, Auditorum 23 tranny, VPI Scoutmaster TT, Benz Ruby 3 cartridge).

  16. #66
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    Yes, and, AS I STATED, I measured the bass drum at 106 dB through my system (Dunlavy SCIV speakers, Audio Research SP 8 preamp, D70 amp, Auditorum 23 tranny, VPI Scoutmaster TT, Benz Ruby 3 cartridge).
    106db is a far cry from 120-137db isn't it?

    It always helps to be realistic and not make outrageous claims.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    106db is a far cry from 120-137db isn't it?

    It always helps to be realistic and not make outrageous claims.
    I never claimed that you need to match the absolute peak possible. HOWEVER, very few audio systems can accurately reproduce a bass drum at around 106 dBs. From the looks of your system, you should have no problems in that area. TTT, you must admit that the low bass is rarely reproduced at anything approaching realistic levels. Without deep bass, you will miss a lot of the impact of pop, house, trance, and some classical and jazz. Small two way speakers simply cannot reproduce the big sound that I love. Ditto for electrostatics (without subs). Even my Dunlavy SCIVs (flat to about 30 Hz) cannot come close to matching the powerful bass of my Fulton Js (flat to 20 Hz). Of course, the Dunlavy's are flatter in frequency response
    and time coherent. From the looks of your system, I suspect that I would love it. And, remember, I agreed with you that multi-channel, surround sound is vastly more realistic than two channel audio. Cost and software is my only problem

  18. #68
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    I never claimed that you need to match the absolute peak possible. HOWEVER, very few audio systems can accurately reproduce a bass drum at around 106 dBs. From the looks of your system, you should have no problems in that area. TTT, you must admit that the low bass is rarely reproduced at anything approaching realistic levels. Without deep bass, you will miss a lot of the impact of pop, house, trance, and some classical and jazz. Small two way speakers simply cannot reproduce the big sound that I love. Ditto for electrostatics (without subs). Even my Dunlavy SCIVs (flat to about 30 Hz) cannot come close to matching the powerful bass of my Fulton Js (flat to 20 Hz). Of course, the Dunlavy's are flatter in frequency response
    and time coherent. From the looks of your system, I suspect that I would love it. And, remember, I agreed with you that multi-channel, surround sound is vastly more realistic than two channel audio. Cost and software is my only problem
    We agree on this. I have 7 SC-V, and two TSW-VI subs from Dunlavy in my main mastering room. I dare to say that two SCV's can reproduce realistic deep bass when combined with Bryston 28B monoblocks.
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  19. #69
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    I never claimed that you need to match the absolute peak possible. HOWEVER, very few audio systems can accurately reproduce a bass drum at around 106 dBs. From the looks of your system, you should have no problems in that area. TTT, you must admit that the low bass is rarely reproduced at anything approaching realistic levels. Without deep bass, you will miss a lot of the impact of pop, house, trance, and some classical and jazz. Small two way speakers simply cannot reproduce the big sound that I love. Ditto for electrostatics (without subs)....
    As I recall you mentioned Firebird and a peak of 106 dB; you also said that you thought that the corresponding average level was about 70 dB. That's a remarkable 36 dB spread -- does this really happen?

    My sonically best Firebird recording is this one, which I have in the form of a 24/88.2 PCM file from HDTracks ...



    When I listen at an average of 70 db I don't hear any 106 dB peaks. The greatest peak, I think, occurs around 9:10 - 9:25 into the piece. At this point there is bass drum note or two, (and possibly some tympani). The sound is pretty good with from my Magneplanar 1.6's plus subwoofer, however I don't measure this close to 106 but roughly 90 dB.

    So how do we reconcile your observations and mine? Either (1) the 36 dB average to peak spread is too not correct, i.e. when you measured 106 dB, your average level was actually higher, say over 80 dB, or (2) my system doesn't have the "umph" to produce the sound level.

    I should mention that I'm not really interested in listen much above the 70 dB average: maybe as high as 75 dB but no higher on average. I would say my current system is adequate for my listening room and my volume preference.

  20. #70
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    As I recall you mentioned Firebird and a peak of 106 dB; you also said that you thought that the corresponding average level was about 70 dB. That's a remarkable 36 dB spread -- does this really happen?

    My sonically best Firebird recording is this one, which I have in the form of a 24/88.2 PCM file from HDTracks ...



    When I listen at an average of 70 db I don't hear any 106 dB peaks. The greatest peak, I think, occurs around 9:10 - 9:25 into the piece. At this point there is bass drum note or two, (and possibly some tympani). The sound is pretty good with from my Magneplanar 1.6's plus subwoofer, however I don't measure this close to 106 but roughly 90 dB.

    So how do we reconcile your observations and mine? Either (1) the 36 dB average to peak spread is too not correct, i.e. when you measured 106 dB, your average level was actually higher, say over 80 dB, or (2) my system doesn't have the "umph" to produce the sound level.

    I should mention that I'm not really interested in listen much above the 70 dB average: maybe as high as 75 dB but no higher on average. I would say my current system is adequate for my listening room and my volume preference.
    Feanor, I am going to offer this. Not all recordings of the same piece will have the same dynamic range. On the Firebird piece, it really depends on the size of the bass drum, the recorded dynamics of the tympani, and the size of the Orchestra - and let's throw in the format as well(multichannel versus stereo).
    You also have to take into consideration the dynamic capabilities of your system at low frequencies.

    I have four recordings of the Firebird Suite, well actually five. One is a stereo recording, another a multichannel 5.1 SACD recording, another, a 4.1, and lastly one I recorded myself with the Birmingham Symphony three years ago. I also have a digital copy of the Original recording that Disney did for Fantasia 2000. Each one of these recordings uses a different size orchestra, with a different size bass drum for the climax. The Fantasia recording(pre-mastered for DVD and theatrical exhibition) has the most dynamic range - easily 35-40db because it uses a field bass drum which is three to four times as large as a concert bass drum(it was so large is had wheels), and a orchestra of 110 members as opposed to the typical 80.

    A stereo recording will probably not have the dynamic impact at low frequencies that a multichannel will. The LFE channel allows us to mix in 10db of ADDED signal below 120hz(most likely filtered at 80hz). All of my multichannel recordings of Firebird have louder and deeper bass than the stereo one thanks to the use of the LFE channel.
    Sir Terrence

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  21. #71
    AR Newbie Registered Member d-ray657's Avatar
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    My answer would be in terms of WP and WA (wife present and wife absent) My WP listening level is probably in the 50-60 range. My WA listening level is in the 75-80 range. The WA level applies after the wife has left for work in the evening, in the mancave or in the garage.

    Regards,

    D-Ray

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    As I recall you mentioned Firebird and a peak of 106 dB; you also said that you thought that the corresponding average level was about 70 dB. That's a remarkable 36 dB spread -- does this really happen?

    My sonically best Firebird recording is this one, which I have in the form of a 24/88.2 PCM file from HDTracks ...



    When I listen at an average of 70 db I don't hear any 106 dB peaks. The greatest peak, I think, occurs around 9:10 - 9:25 into the piece. At this point there is bass drum note or two, (and possibly some tympani). The sound is pretty good with from my Magneplanar 1.6's plus subwoofer, however I don't measure this close to 106 but roughly 90 dB.

    So how do we reconcile your observations and mine? Either (1) the 36 dB average to peak spread is too not correct, i.e. when you measured 106 dB, your average level was actually higher, say over 80 dB, or (2) my system doesn't have the "umph" to produce the sound level.

    I should mention that I'm not really interested in listen much above the 70 dB average: maybe as high as 75 dB but no higher on average. I would say my current system is adequate for my listening room and my volume preference.
    I use the Antal Dorati "Firebird" with the London Symphony Orchestra. Yes, VINYL! The bass drum is simply HUGE! It's really scary. And, yes, my average level may be 75-80 dB, but the dynamic range on this record is immense. Another great vinyl record with NO COMPRESSION is the Hugh Masekela "hope" one, especially "The Coal Train" track. The peak levels, if EVERYTHING matches (like in TTT's system), are definitely scary. Of course, trance or house, played at similar levels heard in clubs, is WAY, WAY over 100 dB. Fortunately for my hearing, I rarely listen to either, but when I do, it's at a level only slightly below live levels.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Feanor, I am going to offer this. Not all recordings of the same piece will have the same dynamic range. On the Firebird piece, it really depends on the size of the bass drum, the recorded dynamics of the tympani, and the size of the Orchestra - and let's throw in the format as well(multichannel versus stereo).
    You also have to take into consideration the dynamic capabilities of your system at low frequencies.

    I have four recordings of the Firebird Suite, well actually five. One is a stereo recording, another a multichannel 5.1 SACD recording, another, a 4.1, and lastly one I recorded myself with the Birmingham Symphony three years ago. I also have a digital copy of the Original recording that Disney did for Fantasia 2000. Each one of these recordings uses a different size orchestra, with a different size bass drum for the climax. The Fantasia recording(pre-mastered for DVD and theatrical exhibition) has the most dynamic range - easily 35-40db because it uses a field bass drum which is three to four times as large as a concert bass drum(it was so large is had wheels), and a orchestra of 110 members as opposed to the typical 80.

    A stereo recording will probably not have the dynamic impact at low frequencies that a multichannel will. The LFE channel allows us to mix in 10db of ADDED signal below 120hz(most likely filtered at 80hz). All of my multichannel recordings of Firebird have louder and deeper bass than the stereo one thanks to the use of the LFE channel.
    I've heard countless two way systems, and NOTHING significantly sounds more like live music than my system. However, EVERY high-end multichannel I have heard, simply sounds live in a way that even the best stereo one doesn't. Yes, IMO.

    BTW, TTT must have a huge listening room to hold all those speakers.

  24. #74
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Feanor, I am going to offer this. Not all recordings of the same piece will have the same dynamic range. On the Firebird piece, it really depends on the size of the bass drum, the recorded dynamics of the tympani, and the size of the Orchestra - and let's throw in the format as well(multichannel versus stereo).
    You also have to take into consideration the dynamic capabilities of your system at low frequencies.

    I have four recordings of the Firebird Suite, well actually five. One is a stereo recording, another a multichannel 5.1 SACD recording, another, a 4.1, and lastly one I recorded myself with the Birmingham Symphony three years ago. I also have a digital copy of the Original recording that Disney did for Fantasia 2000. Each one of these recordings uses a different size orchestra, with a different size bass drum for the climax. The Fantasia recording(pre-mastered for DVD and theatrical exhibition) has the most dynamic range - easily 35-40db because it uses a field bass drum which is three to four times as large as a concert bass drum(it was so large is had wheels), and a orchestra of 110 members as opposed to the typical 80.

    A stereo recording will probably not have the dynamic impact at low frequencies that a multichannel will. The LFE channel allows us to mix in 10db of ADDED signal below 120hz(most likely filtered at 80hz). All of my multichannel recordings of Firebird have louder and deeper bass than the stereo one thanks to the use of the LFE channel.
    Thanks, Sir T. Here again you personal experience & expertise places you comments on a different plain.

    I'm certainly persuade even from my own experience that multi-channel can deliver much more impact than stereo and a more concert hall-like experience in general. I still do my most serious listening on my stereo system than our HT system, however this due to several circumstances including that my stereo components are higher quality.

  25. #75
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    I use the Antal Dorati "Firebird" with the London Symphony Orchestra. Yes, VINYL! The bass drum is simply HUGE! It's really scary. And, yes, my average level may be 75-80 dB, but the dynamic range on this record is immense. Another great vinyl record with NO COMPRESSION is the Hugh Masekela "hope" one, especially "The Coal Train" track. The peak levels, if EVERYTHING matches (like in TTT's system), are definitely scary. Of course, trance or house, played at similar levels heard in clubs, is WAY, WAY over 100 dB. Fortunately for my hearing, I rarely listen to either, but when I do, it's at a level only slightly below live levels.
    Sounds like quite a recording, but I ask, what is the theoretical dynamic range of a vinyl LP? Also, there is a big difference between an average level of 70 dB and 85 dB.

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