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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    The original post here is misleading since the OP has some pretty nice gear to start with. Without mentioning any setup or component, the OP sounds like any old crappy gear may be good enough for him.

    Tube Fan,
    When you listen to other systems using your criteria, are you not comparing it to what you already have?

    Of course, if what I am listening to is not significantly better, I will stick to what I own. I went from the AR3a to the Fulton J speaker (matched against the infinity Servo-Static in my final blind tests). I went from the Dyna Mark III amps to the AR ones, based on listening tests.
    The two rooms that impressed me most at the CAS were the Audio Note and the Teresonic. Based on what I heard, I decided to match the Fosgate phono unit (used in the Teresonic room) vs my current units. As I consistently rated the music higher through the Fosgate, I ended up buying it.

  2. #52
    Scum Low Life (O0o*o0O)'s Avatar
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    Great point

    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan
    I listen to my favorite vinyl and cds, and rate each piece of music through various audio systems. I don't focus of the equipment, but on the music. The best system (yes, for me) is the one through which I give my favorite recordings the highest scores. I DON't break down the sound into low end, middle range, and high end. I don't listen for dynamics. I don't focus on tonality. I just listen to my favorite musical records and rate them. By concentrating on the music I am, of course, also listening to the system, but if you consciously focus on the equipment, rather than on the music, you are going about it backwards IMO.
    I've been building my primary system around a broad range of music for years. I usually have one to three other system set-up for music and jump around. I would need at least three systems to be truly satisfied.

    I think many audio nuts get caught up in the different dynamics of audio gear and their preference in music. Which leads to so many disagreements between brand, build, and unfortunately price.

    There is as much bad as there is over priced and this makes for some great debating. It also allows you to use your ears past what someone is telling you and to just sit and listen. The miracle of sound is now another miracle to be able to reproduce it, but in any market you have your shysters. People who sell you or misrepresent audio products. Even within brands I like and brands I own.

    The best piece of audio equipment we have are our ears...

  3. #53
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    If you go by the reviews in the audio press, 99% of new, ever more expensive audio equipment is better than last year's model. If each and every piece of new equipment was dramatically better, then, when I go and compare the sound of my mostly 25 year old system to today's best, there should be a HUGE difference. To my ears, there is little, if any, real improvement in audio systems, despite the supposed improvement of today's models over yesterday's.

  4. #54
    Forum Regular swan24's Avatar
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    I first start with affordability... There's no sense in rating a system I can't buy... It ruins my mental calibration of what is possible for me to listen to... After I have established what I can afford, I listen for overall musicality... I've learned over the years not to count too much on audio punditry or specs... They don't really tell me how much I will enjoy the system... The operative word there is system... In the final act, if the whole doesn't work together to produce a pleasing sound, then what good are the individual components?... (m.)

  5. #55
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swan24
    I first start with affordability... There's no sense in rating a system I can't buy...
    I respectfully disagree. I don't see any advantage to ignoring what is possible. I can appreciate the performance of any number of things I cannot afford.

    Quote Originally Posted by swan24
    It ruins my mental calibration of what is possible for me to listen to...
    I find that having spent lots of time hearing a friend's very well matched $300k system helps me prioritize and determine where spending more makes sense and where it doesn't.

    rw

  6. #56
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    I agree with E-Stat. The absolute top of the line high dollar stuff most of us will never be able to afford gives you a target to aim at. Sure, short of winning the Power Ball lottery I'll never be able to spend $300K on any system. Does that mean I should ignore what that system sounds like? That would be silly and akin to burying my head in the sand.

    I want to know how good it can be. That applies to everything. A Bugatti Veyron is beyond my pocket. I won't ignore it or that 360Z I can (maybe) afford. The same applies to audio gear.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  7. #57
    Forum Regular swan24's Avatar
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    I think I have two distinct things working against me if I were to take that tack on rating systems:

    1) My budget, as I'm a disabled vet on a rather sparse pension, and

    2) My ability as a classical musician to really remember what a system sounds like when I listen to it... Even years later, that impression will stay with me... Every nuance...

    So, in the end-- at least for me, anyway-- I do much better auditioning audio systems that are within my price range... Maybe a little outside, but not by very much...

    Example: Years ago, I was talking to Bud Fried, and he was showing us his [at that time] new Model H speaker system with the double transmission line bass commode, and satellite speakers... The amplification was Audio Research... The program source was a massive turntable [forgot which] with London Decca no cantilever phono cartridge playing a Sheffield direct to vinly LP... That was over 35 yrs. ago, and it still sometimes affects my listening calibration... It can throw me off for days at a time...

    I would also like to add, that when you can't throw money at a system, you are forced to make more wise choices, calling upon internal resources that you would not otherwise use in making your decisions... The end result can be very satisfying, if you do your homework... And of course, listen... (m.)

  8. #58
    Forum Regular swan24's Avatar
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    As a sidebar, here's my current music system:



    I just added up the total cost, sans shipping... It was $839.84, including good quality Knu Konceptz speaker cables and interconnects...

    The speakers, I built from a kit... The integrated single ended tube amplifier is of Chinese origin... The CD player is a manufacturer's refurbished TEAC unit... The tuner is a Sangean HDT 1 X... And the antenna is a Godar FM 1A...

    I've had people over who were absolutely floored by this system... And yes, those three inch drivers are the only ones in the enclosures, rear horn loaded... Listeners are often looking for additional speakers, or even a sub-woofer when I play it...

    The sound?... Sumptuous on classical chamber music, jazz, new-age, anything acoustical... (m.)

  9. #59
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by swan24
    As a sidebar, here's my current music system:



    I just added up the total cost, sans shipping... It was $839.84, including good quality Knu Konceptz speaker cables and interconnects...

    The speakers, I built from a kit... The integrated single ended tube amplifier is of Chinese origin... The CD player is a manufacturer's refurbished TEAC unit... The tuner is a Sangean HDT 1 X... And the antenna is a Godar FM 1A...

    I've had people over who were absolutely floored by this system... And yes, those three inch drivers are the only ones in the enclosures, rear horn loaded... Listeners are often looking for additional speakers, or even a sub-woofer when I play it...

    The sound?... Sumptuous on classical chamber music, jazz, new-age, anything acoustical... (m.)
    Not a big fan of SET , but still a very nice system.
    You might want to try separate stands or putting the speakers on the floor. I just don't
    like speakers sharing space with the gear.
    Again, very nice.
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  10. #60
    Forum Regular swan24's Avatar
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    Right... That's a drawback... I'm thinking of getting a maple platform and spikes for the amp... That might help... But the whole thing is surprisingly stable as is... (m.)

  11. #61
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swan24
    My ability as a classical musician to really remember what a system sounds like when I listen to it... Even years later, that impression will stay with me... Every nuance...
    So, if as a classical musician you remember every nuance of the live musical experience (aka what is truly the "Perfect System"), then how do you forget all of that only when listening to low priced audio systems ? Just curious since I've never encountered someone in your position. Another reviewer friend of mine has been a part of the Atlanta Symphony Chorus for over thirty years. Consequently, I've met quite a few of the musicians there. The majority of them quite frankly don't care too much about audio systems. The ones who do always enjoyed hearing JWC's latest and greatest system.

    Quote Originally Posted by swan24
    I would also like to add, that when you can't throw money at a system, you are forced to make more wise choices, calling upon internal resources that you would not otherwise use in making your decisions...
    Agreed. I don't have the budge of my reviewer friend either! I want to know exactly where the money is best spent. I like your system choice using full range drivers. I too, value coherency very high.

    rw

  12. #62
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I respectfully disagree. I don't see any advantage to ignoring what is possible. I can appreciate the performance of any number of things I cannot afford.

    ...
    I find that having spent lots of time hearing a friend's very well matched $300k system helps me prioritize and determine where spending more makes sense and where it doesn't.

    rw
    I don't have friends with $300k systems, (too bad), nor do I get much chance to go to shows. One or two local dealers do have good demo systems but go there rarely since I haven't the money to make regular purchases.

    A few reference records are what I have to rely on. Large-scale choral works with chorus, soloists, and orchestra are the best single reference, IMO. This at least for classical listeners, since they do the most to reveal resolution and transparency as well as instrument timbres.

    Personally I listen for "accuracy". That is, in proximate terms accuracy to the my reference recordings, in ultimate terms to the true sound of voices and instruments.

  13. #63
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Personally I listen for "accuracy". That is, in proximate terms accuracy to the my reference recordings, in ultimate terms to the true sound of voices and instruments.
    Tonal harmonics accuracy? Dynamic accuracy? Image coherence accuracy? Bandwidth accuracy?

    rw

  14. #64
    Forum Regular swan24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    So, if as a classical musician you remember every nuance of the live musical experience (aka what is truly the "Perfect System"), then how do you forget all of that only when listening to low priced audio systems ? Just curious since I've never encountered someone in your position. Another reviewer friend of mine has been a part of the Atlanta Symphony Chorus for over thirty years. Consequently, I've met quite a few of the musicians there. The majority of them quite frankly don't care too much about audio systems. The ones who do always enjoyed hearing JWC's latest and greatest system.

    rw
    Yes, a lot of working musicians have, at the very best, mostly marginal audio systems in their homes... But they do tend to have a lot of program material, from my experience... As far as how I can forget the live performance only when listening to lower priced audio systems, I don't... Most live performances, that is, with full audiences in any concert venue, sound much different from a recorded session with perfect mic placement, an open acoustic, etc. So, allowances are made for this, albeit rather automatically, and somewhat subjectively... (m.)

  15. #65
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    I can't imagine a better system for $839.84...and that's coming from an electrostat guy...nice job Swan...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  16. #66
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swan24
    YSo, allowances are made for this, albeit rather automatically, and somewhat subjectively...
    Thanks for the different perspective. I've never met another music/audio fancier who finds listening to better gear a *problem*.

    I adjust easily from hearing the live event, a studio recording event (I participated in the '78 ASO Firebird recording in a very minor way), a state-of-the-art system, my two decidedly lesser systems or even - my iPhone!

    rw

  17. #67
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    Very impressive! What an excellent example of audio set-ups you have. Love the cost, love the DIY, and would love to come over in my pajamas to have a listen.

    This low-life is blown away..

  18. #68
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Tonal harmonics accuracy? Dynamic accuracy? Image coherence accuracy? Bandwidth accuracy?

    rw
    Yes.

  19. #69
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Yes.
    That's what I thought. Your *accuracy* will be different that one who likes K-Horns.

    rw

  20. #70
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's what I thought. Your *accuracy* will be different that one who likes K-Horns.

    rw
    Yes.

  21. #71
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    The beauty of my rating system is that you simply rate your favorite records played by different audio systems. Just buy the unit that produces your highest scores, assuming that
    the unit is in your budget.

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