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  1. #26
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    He runs his CDP straight into his amp..
    Using a homemade passive with the DACT mono attenuators...

    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    He also uses a Bellari to run straight into an amp, and avoid an active pre. His goal is minimal.
    Yes, his goal is minimal, and it shows that you can sometimes spend small amounts on important elements in the chain but still achieve great results...

  2. #27
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Using a homemade passive with the DACT mono attenuators...
    I'm not sure if he uses the passive pre anymore. His garage is all done directly. He uses an SP9 for vinyl in his main system but I think his CDP has variable control. Perhaps I am confusing his garage CDP with his main.

    I can't imagine not having my EICO in the chain. The tubed pre makes things sound lovely and quite frankly, I don't care what the negative effects are at this point.

    Ralph is on a different trip, but then again he has gear that is 10 times the fidelity of mine. Perhaps when I am at his level of experience, my goals will change. In the mean time I will pick his brain for guidance and so should a few others here.

  3. #28
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    I'm not sure if he uses the passive pre anymore. His garage is all done directly. He uses an SP9 for vinyl in his main system but I think his CDP has variable control. Perhaps I am confusing his garage CDP with his main.

    I can't imagine not having my EICO in the chain. The tubed pre makes things sound lovely and quite frankly, I don't care what the negative effects are at this point.

    Ralph is on a different trip, but then again he has gear that is 10 times the fidelity of mine. Perhaps when I am at his level of experience, my goals will change. In the mean time I will pick his brain for guidance and so should a few others here.
    Yep, I think the variable control is on his garage CDP....

    As for the EICO pre; what matters is how it sounds to you.... Even many SS fans like using Tube Pre's....

  4. #29
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    How's that song go....
    Hey now, hey now.... eico, eico... I say...... something like that.

  5. #30
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    Iīve spent the last 6 months trying to " correct " the listening room by DIY attempts and reading a lot of articles to point of crying and come to the following basic conclusions but fortunately so without spending a lot of cash:
    First and foremost, any treatment depends on whether you have an Electrostatic loudspeaker (ESL) or a cone one as the ESL and other planars are dipoles having a figure of 8 radiation pattern as opposed to a cardioid radiation pattern for the cone speakers (boxed not the open baffle variety ).
    The second lesson was learn t more painfully and that is NOT to have a very small sweet spot as I tended to tweak the speaker positions every other day because they didīnt sound the same as the day before in the sense that the solid center image tended to move around the center line between the speakers. Some may swear otherwise, but I have to share the sofa with family ( wife and cats ) none of whom will budge an inch if they get there before me. So, all the testing was done with just myself sitting right in the middle! Hence, more than the usual toe-in to provide a wider sweet spot and you wonīt need to nail your listening chair to the floor nor glue your headrest to the wall behind you lest you donīt sit in the same spot to within a couple of inches!
    The cheapest noticeable room correction was provided by placing a big roll (heavy pillow bought from IKEA ) behind my head. This removed unwanted reflections which gave the impression that certain sounds seemed to be coming from behind me and these were more evident in the late hours when everything is quite and my favorite bedtime double dose of CSI oldies is aired on TV. The sound effects are truly amazing.
    The desired speaker heights from experience matches everybodyīs suggestion bar none, so far: For ESLs the middle of the speaker at ear level. the same applying to the twitters for cone speakers, this being especially important for the bookshelf sized speakers where the use of speaker stands is justified.
    I started with my ESLs leaning back as supplied, then raised the back to make them parallel to the walls, but the best result was achieved by raising their back even further so as to lean them further forward.
    Also used rolled up carpets behind the speakers, not to mention different shaped reflecting objects ( incidentally, I even tried pipes and on one occasion even lined up the cooking pots ) behind the speakers without any arguable difference just in case I had to present my case in the divorce court as to why the pots were not to be found in the kitchen as is the case in any normal home.
    When my favorite cat died ( a good sport, always ready for a bit of slap and wrestle ) I built 3 small to average sized diffusers as therapy. Believe me, one needs a lot of motivation to cut up the wood to correct sizes and glue them in place, so my advice is to buy them ready made or you probably will give up halfway! Now, diffusers are a different beast: the only conclusive argument I can provide for them is that the results obtained with test tones was that around their design frequencies, the loudness was more or less unaffected and that for those frequencies it was not easy to localize the speaker. At the moment, my setup is without the diffusers as I would need to build a second matching set for use behind the second speaker.
    Hope this has been informative to those who wish to embark on a room treatment journey.... Best of luck!!

  6. #31
    Ajani
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Nasir
    Iīve spent the last 6 months trying to " correct " the listening room by DIY attempts and reading a lot of articles to point of crying and come to the following basic conclusions but fortunately so without spending a lot of cash:
    First and foremost, any treatment depends on whether you have an Electrostatic loudspeaker (ESL) or a cone one as the ESL and other planars are dipoles having a figure of 8 radiation pattern as opposed to a cardioid radiation pattern for the cone speakers (boxed not the open baffle variety ).
    The second lesson was learn t more painfully and that is NOT to have a very small sweet spot as I tended to tweak the speaker positions every other day because they didīnt sound the same as the day before in the sense that the solid center image tended to move around the center line between the speakers. Some may swear otherwise, but I have to share the sofa with family ( wife and cats ) none of whom will budge an inch if they get there before me. So, all the testing was done with just myself sitting right in the middle! Hence, more than the usual toe-in to provide a wider sweet spot and you wonīt need to nail your listening chair to the floor nor glue your headrest to the wall behind you lest you donīt sit in the same spot to within a couple of inches!
    The cheapest noticeable room correction was provided by placing a big roll (heavy pillow bought from IKEA ) behind my head. This removed unwanted reflections which gave the impression that certain sounds seemed to be coming from behind me and these were more evident in the late hours when everything is quite and my favorite bedtime double dose of CSI oldies is aired on TV. The sound effects are truly amazing.
    The desired speaker heights from experience matches everybodyīs suggestion bar none, so far: For ESLs the middle of the speaker at ear level. the same applying to the twitters for cone speakers, this being especially important for the bookshelf sized speakers where the use of speaker stands is justified.
    I started with my ESLs leaning back as supplied, then raised the back to make them parallel to the walls, but the best result was achieved by raising their back even further so as to lean them further forward.
    Also used rolled up carpets behind the speakers, not to mention different shaped reflecting objects ( incidentally, I even tried pipes and on one occasion even lined up the cooking pots ) behind the speakers without any arguable difference just in case I had to present my case in the divorce court as to why the pots were not to be found in the kitchen as is the case in any normal home.
    When my favorite cat died ( a good sport, always ready for a bit of slap and wrestle ) I built 3 small to average sized diffusers as therapy. Believe me, one needs a lot of motivation to cut up the wood to correct sizes and glue them in place, so my advice is to buy them ready made or you probably will give up halfway! Now, diffusers are a different beast: the only conclusive argument I can provide for them is that the results obtained with test tones was that around their design frequencies, the loudness was more or less unaffected and that for those frequencies it was not easy to localize the speaker. At the moment, my setup is without the diffusers as I would need to build a second matching set for use behind the second speaker.
    Hope this has been informative to those who wish to embark on a room treatment journey.... Best of luck!!
    Thanks for your thoughts - I agree on not having too narrow a sweetspot (unless you have a dedicated man cave for your stereo, that only you use)...

    When you say your favourite cat died and you made diffusers, I hope you don't mean that you used the dead cat in that DIY project

  7. #32
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    LOL, no, if I had to use the cat in my DIY project, it would be stuffed and poised to use my Final Sound 300i ESLs as a scratching post, which the reason I never bought the Magnapans. That cat completely destroyed a huge 30cm full range cone speaker before I had the chance to connect it up or make a worthwhile project and since then I half expected to come home to find my speakers especially the subwoofer reduced to ribbons ( not Magnapan ribbons! )

  8. #33
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasir
    LOL, no, if I had to use the cat in my DIY project, it would be stuffed and poised to use my Final Sound 300i ESLs as a scratching post, which the reason I never bought the Magnapans. That cat completely destroyed a huge 30cm full range cone speaker before I had the chance to connect it up or make a worthwhile project and since then I half expected to come home to find my speakers especially the subwoofer reduced to ribbons ( not Magnapan ribbons! )
    Very nice speakers!!! The Final Sound 400i is one of my 3 favourite speakers... A shame they went out of business (If I remember correctly)....

  9. #34
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    Good post Nasir. I think after the first attack of my gear kitty would have under gone front paw de-claw.

  10. #35
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I guess I am going to disagree with many here, as I guess I have been listening to John Dunlavy too much. I believe that a loudspeaker must exibit a flat response before going into any listening room, which is why I believe they should be designed in a anechoic chamber, and then tweaked by ear. Loudspeaker should not(IMO) be designed in listening rooms, as they vary way too much from one location to another. Once you start with a speaker with a flat response, then once you install it is a room, the only real influence that will startle the ear, is room resonances in the lower bass. Reflections in higher frequencies are so dense, the ear filters them out.

    A speaker that has a flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, will usually have frequency response issues only in the bass frequencies, as that is the frequencies with the longest wavelengths, and therefore the most interactions with the walls in the room. Depending on how close that speaker is to the walls will determine the amount of boost per octave the speaker will experience. It is predictable and equalizeable as well. They will generally keep their relatively tight frequency response in the mid and high frequencies, which are the most critical frequencies to the ear. These frequencies are also easily treated with acoustical treatments.

    Speakers designed in rooms will not have a flat overall frequency response in all rooms, but will only have a flat response within the room it was designed for. Rooms are totally unpredictable in how a speaker will interact with it.

    With all of that said, a great sounding room will be a equal balance of absorption, reflection and diffusion. This kind of room must be tailored to the format that is predominately played in the room(i.e stereo or multichannel).

    This room will have a combination of acoustical AND electrical correction to properly balance the speakers within the room, not one or the other.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 05-13-2010 at 05:59 PM.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
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  11. #36
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I guess I am going to disagree with many here, as I guess I have been listening to John Dunlavy too much. I believe that a loudspeaker must exibit a flat response before going into any listening room, which is why I believe they should be designed in a anechoic chamber, and then tweaked by ear. Loudspeaker should not(IMO) be designed in listening rooms, as they vary way too much from one location to another. Once you start with a speaker with a flat response, then once you install it is a room, the only real influence that will startle the ear, is room resonances in the lower bass. Reflections in higher frequencies are so dense, the ear filters them out.

    A speaker that has a flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, will usually have frequency response issues only in the bass frequencies, as that is the frequencies with the longest wavelengths, and therefore the most interactions with the walls in the room. Depending on how close that speaker is to the walls will determine the amount of boost per octave the speaker will experience. It is predictable and equalizeable as well. They will generally keep their relatively tight frequency response in the mid and high frequencies, which are the most critical frequencies to the ear. These frequencies are also easily treated with acoustical treatments.

    Speakers designed in rooms will not have a flat overall frequency response in all rooms, but will only have a flat response within the room it was designed for. Rooms are totally unpredictable in how a speaker will interact with it.

    With all of that said, a great sounding room will be a equal balance of absorption, reflection and diffusion. This kind of room must be tailored to the format that is predominately played in the room(i.e stereo or multichannel).

    This room will have a combination of acoustical AND electrical correction to properly balance the speakers within the room, not one or the other.
    Yep, the whole point of designing in an anechoic chamber is to maintain consistency...

  12. #37
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    Can't explain it but I love the sound of speakers and sub on my 11X17 screen porch. The speakers are placed in the open corners and my sweet spot is opposite them and mid way of the house wall side. My sub is located in the right rear corner a foot from the house wall. For the time being I'm neglecting all my other gear except what I can drag out to the porch. The "free air sound" for me has gotten so addictive.

  13. #38
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    YES, NO walls behind the speakers! Believe me, I have tried suggesting that we break down the walls behind the speakers ( leading into the kitchen) and hoping that she is not paying attention to what I am saying and will nod her head in agreement!! I suppose I havenīt been married long enough to be ignored, yet! I think she started to pay more attention to what I murmur, ever since she figured out that I offer to share my wine ONCE and ONLY ONCE and usually when she is distracted!
    So, Poultrygeist, could you please describe the differences a little bit more? You must have tolerant neighbors too, mind you I canīt complain about what I get away with too!

  14. #39
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    Music does seem to sound good outside but I've never had a "high end" system outside. That would be something.

  15. #40
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    Before my screen porch was added I had the same outdoor speakers mounted on the side of the house, six feet up and aimed toward the backyard. The sound was totally wasted in all that open space. I hated that sound and rarely listened to them. When the porch was completed and I placed them in the open corners on stands opposite the house wall I was shocked at the huge improvement. With the addition of the Marcato outdoor sub I now get decent bass to go with very nice upper frequencies. The sound could be described as light and open and not unlike some of my OB experiments. I love the uncluttered airiness of this inexpensive system. With the speakers pointed at me and not toward the backyard the neighbors can barely hear them at all. I tried an OB set up on the porch but it suffered as OB's sound best in a room. With OB the room is their box. Just for the heck of it I've auditioned several other indoor speakers on the porch along with the cheap outdoor Insignia NS-E2111. These include a pair of Athena AS-B1's, the curved side Insignia NS-B2111 and a pair of Tekton 4.5's. The only sealed speaker of the group is the cheap outdoor Insignia and crazy as it seems I tend to prefer it's sound in this application with the Athena a close second. As time permits I'll be trying some others such as a pair of Aerial Model 5 ( sealed ) ADS L710 ( also sealed ), and some 1970's KLH's and Frazier Monte Carlos . Maybe a ported speaker needs a wall more than a sealed speaker? Anyway it's fun driving my wife crazy dragging all this stuff out on the porch. All she can say is "they all sound good to me" or "I don't understand why you have to keep switching things around" ?. Nothing like a little "whine" and cheese on the back porch.

    Hey Nasir, open a full bottle and drink faster than she does. She'll think it's sharing. Works for me.

  16. #41
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    Poultrygeist,
    I get a bit shaky after the wine bottle has passed the halfway mark!! And while I think that I am still sober: A certain amount of reflected sound energy seems to make a big difference in soundstage, as I found from experience.

  17. #42
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    If you want a big sound stage stay off the porch or the great out of doors. Not much reflected sound outside but lovely point source and the sub does take full advantage of the floor and back wall.

    I guess I find it a refreshing change as my indoor OBs put out a huge sound stage. With the OBs playing I can spin around a few times with eyes shut and not be able to point to them.

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